Just spoke with White Labs

[JONNYROTTEN]

I called to find out about a yeast I bought a couple weeks ago.
Then asked a few more questions.

The yeast (840) will expire in 3 weeks so I asked about the viability
He said we get asked this all the time. He said if its before the expiration even by a couple weeks theres almost no loss of viability from the day it was packaged. I brought up the online yeast calculators and he said don't worry about the calculators the yeast is fine and theres no need for a starter..

Then I asked about Diacetyl rests
I said theres talk about quick lagers lately. Raising the temp to 68 for diacetyl rest with another yeast brand (34/70) and then crashing.
I said your lager yeast (840)isn't rated for those temps and would I get off flavors. He said most of there yeast have almost no diacetyl and theres really no need for a rest but if I want to have at it. That goes for every one of there lager yeasts.

He also said they advise and actually recommend starting there lager yeast at ale temps (65) then crashing to lager temps after 24 hours...I'm not sure I ever heard that before..

Interesting phone call....

 

[SanPancho]

actually its there in their lager info. chris white has been saying that for years. although if i recall it was 60F for 12-18 hours, then drop to target temp. but the idea is the same.

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

Very interesting, so you could do the quick lager but skip the D-rest and it would turn out. Did I understand that correctly?

 

[bkboiler]

wow!! thats not the first thing i've heard from white labs that sounds a little too good to be true and overstates their yeast from a marketing standpoint a little bit.
two examples: 1) no need to make a starter for beers of certain strength. 2) starter only needs to go for 18 hours
i'm not saying those arent true in certain cases, in fact i practice them, but in my experience with yeast viability at the LHBS (and not the lab), their claims are off by little bit. i'd play it safe and do a diacetyl rest.

 

[SanPancho]

if you're accelerating the yeast by getting up towards 60F for a "fast lager" then you're already kind of doing a d-rest.

if you look at their "tasting room" data the diacetyl numbers are there for anyone to look up on their website. pretty much all the lagers are fairly low. so yes, technically they are telling the "truth" when they state that.

but as bkboiler points out, unless you get your yeast directly from them, you're likely getting some that had to endure shipping to the LHBS, and sat in cooler for a while before you walked in and bought it. viability may or may not be affected.

the only way to know is to count the yeast. but probly hard to get your hands on a hemocytometer.

 

[RM-MN]

if you're accelerating the yeast by getting up towards 60F for a "fast lager" then you're already kind of doing a d-rest.

if you look at their "tasting room" data the diacetyl numbers are there for anyone to look up on their website. pretty much all the lagers are fairly low. so yes, technically they are telling the "truth" when they state that.

but as bkboiler points out, unless you get your yeast directly from them, you're likely getting some that had to endure shipping to the LHBS, and sat in cooler for a while before you walked in and bought it. viability may or may not be affected.

the only way to know is to count the yeast. but probly hard to get your hands on a hemocytometer.

Here's some info from someone who has a hemocytometer and has done some research into yeast viability,

http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2012/12/refrigeration-effects-on-yeast-viability.html

And here's a bit on making starters that may surprise you.

http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2015/02/yeast-starters-stirred-vs-not.html

 

[stevehaun]

I routinely pitch lager yeast in 60F wort and then chill to 50F which takes less than 12 hours (30 gallon batch). Some lager strains do not produce much diacetyl. I use wyeast 2206 and almost never do a diacetyl rest. Other lager strains require a diacetyl rest. I usually just let my lagers ferment 2-3 weeks and then keg & lager. I have done a diacetyl rest to speed up the process - ferment at 50F for 5-7 days, rest at 65F for 2-3 days and then keg.

 

[kingmatt]

There are definitely 2 camps on what temp to pitch your lager yeast. I am of the camp that says pitching at fermentation temp makes the most sense to limit potential yeast stress.

I am also of the camp that feels it behooves WL to recommend pitching warm to ensure a quicker fermentation start (and therefore less customer complaints) with less concern over the effect on the finished beer's quality...

I am also a skeptical curmudgeon though!

 

[stevehaun]

Why would it be more stressful to take a yeast from 70F directly to 50F compared to 70F to 60F and then lower to 50F over 12-18 hours?

 

[Stillraining]

I am also a skeptical curmudgeon though!

I'm in this camp...................... actually on most things.

 

[kingmatt]

Why would it be more stressful to take a yeast from 70F directly to 50F compared to 70F to 60F and then lower to 50F over 12-18 hours?

Not sure I understand your question...

Personally I chill my wort to my fermentation temp (around 50f) and pitch my yeast at the same temp.

It is certainly debatable whether pitching warm then dropping the temp to the yeasts optimal fermentation temp 'stresses' the yeast or causes off flavors. I just do what makes sense to me.

 

[Pappers_]

There are definitely 2 camps on what temp to pitch your lager yeast. I am of the camp that says pitching at fermentation temp makes the most sense to limit potential yeast stress.

I am also of the camp that feels it behooves WL to recommend pitching warm to ensure a quicker fermentation start (and therefore less customer complaints) with less concern over the effect on the finished beer's quality...

I am also a skeptical curmudgeon though!

+1 That is only reason to recommend starting fermentation high, in my opinion. Actually, Jamil suggests starting your fermentations a little low and bringing them up - I've done that with good results.

 

[stevehaun]

Not sure I understand your question...

Sorry - I worded the question incorrectly.

It should read:
Why would it be LESS stressful to take a yeast from 70F directly to 50F compared to 70F to 60F and then lower to 50F over 12-18 hours?

 

[kingmatt]

Sorry - I worded the question incorrectly.

It should read:
Why would it be LESS stressful to take a yeast from 70F directly to 50F compared to 70F to 60F and then lower to 50F over 12-18 hours?

I doubt it would be, that is why I pitch at 50 from the start and keep it there throughout fermentation.

I look at it like, I wouldn't pitch an ale yeast at 88 degrees then slowly lower it to 68 so why would I do it for a lager?

 

[SanPancho]

the reason that it doesnt have any noticeable affect on the beer is that for the first 12-18 hours the yeast are multiplying and not fermenting, so no off-flavors being produced by the high fermentation temp as that hasnt started yet.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I think my yeast is toast, I pitched 40 hours ago. One batch was 34/70 the other 840. Pitched at 60 and slowly dropped to 50 in my cold basement. Everything between the 2 are identical.
The 34/70 is crankin away
The 840 has zero action,looks like a yellow bucket of water
I even brought it up into my living room last night thinking it might kick start it if it warms up..This morning nothing....I pitched 2 packs in one 5 gallon bucket without a starter thinking that would be enough...but no dice. I'm giving it to this evening before pitching a 34/70 slurry....bummer

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I just called white labs and told them pretty much this^^^^^
I'll say there service is pretty good. There sending me out coupons to replace the yeast that I can use anywhere...so props to them for that. Not there fault I was sold old yeast