just had a near-miss

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

Status
Not open for further replies.

DeathBrewer

Maniacally Malty
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
21,787
Reaction score
316
Location
Oakland, CA
NOW i understand what that means...

I went to make a u-turn at one of my favorite liquor stores after voting today and i see a sportbike flying at me. i hit the brakes and he panics, hitting the brakes himself. he wasn't able to control the bike and he swerved around a bit before crashing right in front of and to the left of my car.

there was no collision with my car and no one was hurt. the bike was scraped up a bit, but i don't think there was any serious damage (might be expensive, but not serious.)

two cops just happened to be across the street and helped us get out of the road and had us exchange info.

we traded information and i'm going to call both insurance companies first thing in the morning (should i call them now?)

i felt bad for the guy...his bike was a little messed up. he was friendly, but a little upset about that. i'm wondering, tho...can i possibly be held liable for any of this?

only the nose of my car was in the intersection. he had plenty of time to maneuver right through or even switch lanes (but he was afraid i was pulling out.) he probably could have even stopped, but i imagine he was going pretty fast...he came right up on me.

what do ya think? any chance this will come back to haunt me? i'd fight it, for sure (as i'm sure my insurance company will) but what are the chances i even need to worry about it?
 

bradsul

Flyfisherman/brewer
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Sep 12, 2006
Messages
4,889
Reaction score
42
Location
Ontario, Canada
You should have taken the opportunity to ask the officers, if they witnessed they may have been able to tell you if it was your fault or not. From my own experience (and no offense intended to any sport bike owners on HBT!) but the people riding the sport bikes are ALWAYS speeding. I've never seen one even pretending to obey the law aside from actually being ON the road.

Technically he had the right of way (I assume he was in the oncoming lane) so you were probably the cause of the accident legally. I would definitely call and find out if for no other reason than to get your account of what happened on the record with your insurance company.
 

Hopleaf

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
491
Reaction score
6
Location
Plano, TX
I was walking in a park with my pregnant wife and one of those guys almost hit us.. he was FLYING.. I wasn't pleased to say the least
 

Elshauno

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
217
Reaction score
1
Location
Dayton, Ohio
My friend was in similiar situation only he go hit He made a left in front of some guy doing 80 and got tossed around his truck. But he was cited for failure to yield. Depending on the officers discretion you will be cited or he will be cited for failure to control. Speeding usually cant be proven unless they got him on radar. Hope that helps
 

jas0420

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 21, 2007
Messages
184
Reaction score
17
Location
College Station
If you didn't get a ticket from it and police were right there, I'd think that you probably have a good argument of it being no-fault.... Your two insurance companies will most likely put up a fight with one another, but I doubt you'll ever hear anything of it. I say this from past experiences only, not professionaly!
 

shafferpilot

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2007
Messages
1,579
Reaction score
17
Location
Cincinnati OH
That's the advantage/disadvantage to living is an "at-fault" state. In Ohio, someone gets a ticket no matter what. That person is the one responsible. period. If your state allows for partial fault, I'd guess that you two will be splitting the bill 50/50. Regardless of his speeding, you weren't paying close enough attention to traffic. So if you ask me it's a wash. I'm just glad no one got hurt. BTW I ride, but I also run out in the street to yell at the a-holes who live at the end of the block who seem to think my 25mph street is their private drag stip.
 

Bobby_M

Vendor and Brewer
HBT Sponsor
Joined
Aug 3, 2006
Messages
25,300
Reaction score
4,313
Location
Whitehouse Station
and that my friend was a near HIT. If it was a near miss, your paint would be smudged. Hehe, that's a Carlin reference if you didn't pick up on it.
 
OP
DeathBrewer

DeathBrewer

Maniacally Malty
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
21,787
Reaction score
316
Location
Oakland, CA
olllllo said:
Didn't he realize he was dealing with Death?
apparently he didn't have time to see this sticker on the car:



or maybe he did know and that's what frightened him so :cross:

i should have talked to the cop, but dude was right there and in my previous experience it's always best to let the insurance companies handle it and just stay in contact with them.

the cop even asked me if there was a collision. i told him he never touched my car. i thought later that i should have gotten the cops' names. to tell you the truth, i just wanted to make sure dude was ok and then i went to get my brew (lovely Altenmunster Winterbier Dopplebock right now) and have a relaxing smoke.

a friend told me that if there is no collision, then his insurance has to cover it. hope he's right.
 
OP
DeathBrewer

DeathBrewer

Maniacally Malty
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
21,787
Reaction score
316
Location
Oakland, CA
Bobby_M said:
and that my friend was a near HIT. If it was a near miss, your paint would be smudged. Hehe, that's a Carlin reference if you didn't pick up on it.
lol, no, it was a "near-miss" for the biker, cuz he still hit the concrete.
 
OP
DeathBrewer

DeathBrewer

Maniacally Malty
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
21,787
Reaction score
316
Location
Oakland, CA
blacklab said:
is it legal to make a u turn there?
yes it is. i am actually a very conservative driver and mindful of the law...i did NOT see this guy coming until it was too late for him to stop. he was definitely going too fast.
 

Logan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2008
Messages
94
Reaction score
0
Location
Bloomington, IN
Assuming he did try to collect from you theres a few things to consider in terms of negligence. Some states will say his own negligence makes it impossible to recover. Others will say that you guys split the liability. Its really impossible to say though without knowing every single detail and being a lawyer in your state though.
 
OP
DeathBrewer

DeathBrewer

Maniacally Malty
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
21,787
Reaction score
316
Location
Oakland, CA
yes, i was getting ready to turn when we saw each other and i was partially in his lane. not enough to block him cuz i stopped, but he THOUGHT i was turning.
 

Mustangj

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2006
Messages
1,315
Reaction score
4
Location
Royal Oak
In MI you would be at falt. Becouse you entered his lane and he has the right away.
 

PeteOz77

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2007
Messages
1,458
Reaction score
9
Location
Canberra, ACT Australia
bradsul said:
the people riding the sport bikes are ALWAYS speeding. I've never seen one even pretending to obey the law aside from actually being ON the road..

I resent the implication.. or should I say I resemble that remark?

When I rode sport bikes in my youth I ALWAYS obeyed EVERY LAW (of physics)

Seriously tho.. you are right most of these idiots drive like they are on a race track...
 
OP
DeathBrewer

DeathBrewer

Maniacally Malty
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
21,787
Reaction score
316
Location
Oakland, CA
Mustangj said:
In MI you would be at falt. Becouse you entered his lane and he has the right away.
i don't think it's the same here. i think i would be at fault if he hit me, but since he completely missed me and wiped out its his fault.

i'll be sure to post whatever happens...
 

shafferpilot

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2007
Messages
1,579
Reaction score
17
Location
Cincinnati OH
Could be tricky. Be very careful with what you tell the insurance people. And don't call his insurance company at all. Let your company handle all communication.
 

z987k

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2007
Messages
3,512
Reaction score
35
Location
Anchorage
Hard one to call. I know what was going through his mind though... I ride and I always check every intersection, whether I have a green light or not. Every other driver on the road is out to kill you.... Not that your at fault (well I don't know really), it's just we're hard to see.

I've had a lot of cars turning right on red and had to react very quickly to avoid hitting them.
 

joejaz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2007
Messages
373
Reaction score
5
Location
New Jersey
Did you get a police report. I don't know how things are in California but in Jersey common procedure is to get a police report for your insurance and that will carry some weight as to how the police write it up. I believe in Jersey and I could be wrong, it's illegal to make a u turn, so find out what your laws are. No tickets were given, so that's good.
 

Sir Humpsalot

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Nov 26, 2006
Messages
3,996
Reaction score
93
I've been biting my tongue on this thread for awhile, but now I think I'll toss out a few thoughts on this.

I had a professor in college who said that the best device to reduce the number of accidents on the road would be a huge steel spike right in the middle of every steering wheel. Think about it. If you did that, who would ever drive like an idiot? Well, metaphorically speaking, motorcyclists are the guys with the steel spikes on their steering wheels. And motorcyclists are also the idiots who think that it's fun. Yes, their a weird sort, but generally speaking, they all operate their vehicles with far more respect and knowledge for their vehicles' capabilities than the average driver.

Next, motorcycles are consistently estimated to be traveling faster than they actually are. An untrained motorist will hear the high pitched whine of an I4 with an aftermarket exhaust pulling 11,000 RPM and think they dang thing is doing 65-70 mph when its actual speed is closer to 45. Even at 6,000 RPM at 30mph, they're still making a lot of noise. Those engines really rev!. And the smaller size of the bike and higher noise output contributes to the perception that it's coming up upon you faster than it is.

Next, mirrors. 90% of drivers don't use them correctly, don't use them enough, and don't even have them adjusted properly. Hint: If your car has a "blindspot", then your mirrors are mis-adjusted. Also, if you can, at any angle, see the side of your car in your mirror, then your mirrors are misadjusted. Think about it. What the hell good does seeing the side of your car do you? Are you worried about gremlins? The side view mirrors should be focused on the other lanes, not directly alongside your car. Most peoples' side-view mirrors are WAY too rearward-facing and that results in them depending on them instead of their rear-view mirror and often the view from the improperly-adjusted side-view mirror is insufficient to get a good view behind you.

Next, what most drivers don't appreciate is the fact that a slow sport motorcycle, accelerating slowly, is still quicker than any car you can buy for 5 figures. It's not necessarily that they are fast and reckless, it's just that the performance capabilities are just in another world... imagine your mom's toyota corolla in the middle of the Indy 500. An Indy car, taking it easy on a paced lap would sure look fast and dangerous to your mother in her Corolla, don't you think? When you are around a sportbike, that's pretty much what you've got... it only seems reckless because you don't appreciate the performance disparity. An Indy car accelerating to 60mph in 5 seconds is extremely slow. Ditto for the sport bike. For the Corolla, accelerating to 60 in twice that amount of time would seem to be pretty brisk...

Next, guys on crotch rockets are always speeding. But guess what. So are soccer moms. Everybody selects a certain number of miles per hour above the speed limit and they stick to it. For a lot of folks it's "five over on residential, 10 over on the freeway". They think that kind of speeding is ok because that's what they think is safe for them. As Carlin said, there's two types of drivers on the road- idiots and assholes. The idiots are the ones going faster than you and the assholes are the ones going slower. As I see it though, instead of labeling everybody as an idiot or *******, why don't we accept that each person selects what they determine to be a reasonable speed based on a variety of factors and each persons factors are different.

Another thought... the anatomical blind spot. In the center of your eye is a blind spot. IIRC, it can hide a quarter at a distant of 3 feet. We never notice the blind spot because we have two eyes working in tandem and our brain fills in the rest. However, when one eye is partially blocked, or when only looking out of one eye, we are susceptible to the blind spot. What happens is that we only look with one eye. There is something in the blind spot, but our brain fills in the details. As a result, we do not see what we were looking for. The bottom line is this. If something, such as a side-view mirror, is worth looking at at all, then it's worth looking at using both eyes. Otherwise, there's no telling what you are missing.
 

tbulger

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2007
Messages
405
Reaction score
2
Location
MA, NH
Where i come from you would be at fault for the cause of a non contact collision, and/or preceding from a traffic signal w/o caution or exiting a parkinglot, driveway or alley way. I would suggest making you first contact with your insurance agent, they should help you explain what happned the best way without implicating you and they should know the details of your states policy.
 

beergears

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2007
Messages
999
Reaction score
8
Location
somewhere west of Boston Harba'
+ 1 on what Sir Humpsalot said. Also the typical "I did not see him/her" from drivers. And don't rely entirely on eye contact either, BTDT.

I have to add that few unruly motorcyclists make it difficult for the rest of us.

Motorcyclists: when a car is just about to pull out from stopped position (parking exit, etc), always try to see if the car wheels move, even a tiny amount; it is proven that most drivers "inch up" a second or so before launching into traffic.
 

Bedlam

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2006
Messages
1,019
Reaction score
55
Location
East Tennessee
beergears said:
Motorcyclists: when a car is just about to pull out from stopped position (parking exit, etc), always try to see if the car wheels move, even a tiny amount; it is proven that most drivers "inch up" a second or so before launching into traffic.
Which is why, as a motorcyclist, I HATES those stupid #$*&! "spinner" rims.

Oh, and I also get VERY tired of people saying "I didn't see him." You know what? 80% of people who hit firetrucks say the same thing. Why don't you see me? Because you're too busy yakkin' on your cell phone, screwing around with the radio, or swatting at your kids. Distracted drivers are the bane of my existence. And the bigger the SUV, the worse they are, as a rule. It is, in general, a "I'm-more-important-than-you" attitude. You know what I'm talking about.

I have no idea about this particular accident, if the guy was speeding or not. But I'll tell you, speeding or not, I'd grab some serious brakes, too, if someone was pulling a u-ey and had his nose in my lane. (Difference being, #1 I probably wouldn't be speeding in any traffic'd or commercial area and #2 My brakes are well-maintained, anti-lock, servo-assisted. I can stop on a dime and, being that my husband's Jewish, pick it up.)

True, some motorcyclists end up being the rotten apples that ruin the barrel. Just remember that for every one you see doing stupid things, there are dozens of us who ride responsibly--that wear all the gear, obey the laws and try to be examples to teach responsible riding to the others.
 

Bernie Brewer

Grouchy Old Fart
Joined
Feb 2, 2006
Messages
7,505
Reaction score
186
Location
Eldorado, WI
As someone that rides a motorcycle, I have seen both sides of the equation. I have been on my bike and have had auto drivers cut me off because they weren't looking of bikes, I have had auto drivers try and squeeze into my lane (cuz there's plenty of room, right?:rolleyes: ), all kinds of stuff.

Conversely I have seen motorcyclists (almost always crotch-rocket drivers, of which I am NOT one) speeding and weaving in and out of traffic like they were bulletproof and above the law.

It's all about being aware, and being responsible, no matter how many wheels are under you.
 

beergears

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2007
Messages
999
Reaction score
8
Location
somewhere west of Boston Harba'
Bedlam said: "Oh, and I also get VERY tired of people saying "I didn't see him." You know what? 80% of people who hit firetrucks say the same thing."

A few studies have been done, a few factors at work.
One of them is some sort of "selective viewing" (forget details).
Another is the "familiar road" effect, where unusual elements are not being noticed by the brain... it assumes it's the same pattern every day! Some excellent drivers were tested on that, and results were astounding: for some, major stuff never registered!

.
 

z987k

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2007
Messages
3,512
Reaction score
35
Location
Anchorage
After reading this again, I think you would be at fault. Regardless of if he was speeding, you failed to yield, didn't see him and pulled out into his lane. The fact that you didn't get a ticket was lucky.

I'd defiantly not call his insurance, but do call your own to see what happens next.
 

Joker

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2007
Messages
1,951
Reaction score
36
Location
Orygun
I see a fine line here.

Didn't you say you started into the lane but where not blocking it?
 

janzik

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2007
Messages
528
Reaction score
1
Location
Old Bridge, NJ
DeathBrewer said:
NOW i understand what that means...

I went to make a u-turn at one of my favorite liquor stores after voting today and i see a sportbike flying at me. i hit the brakes and he panics, hitting the brakes himself. he wasn't able to control the bike and he swerved around a bit before crashing right in front of and to the left of my car.

there was no collision with my car and no one was hurt. the bike was scraped up a bit, but i don't think there was any serious damage (might be expensive, but not serious.)

two cops just happened to be across the street and helped us get out of the road and had us exchange info.

we traded information and i'm going to call both insurance companies first thing in the morning (should i call them now?)

i felt bad for the guy...his bike was a little messed up. he was friendly, but a little upset about that. i'm wondering, tho...can i possibly be held liable for any of this?

only the nose of my car was in the intersection. he had plenty of time to maneuver right through or even switch lanes (but he was afraid i was pulling out.) he probably could have even stopped, but i imagine he was going pretty fast...he came right up on me.

what do ya think? any chance this will come back to haunt me? i'd fight it, for sure (as i'm sure my insurance company will) but what are the chances i even need to worry about it?
I had something similar happen to me a few years back (I was driving my mid sized SUV and it was a compact SUV that hit me). The police officer said it was my fault (I was making a left turn at a T intersection and was inched out and was literally there for more than a minute or two waiting for the traffic coming from the right to clear and I was hit coming from the left by someone who just never stopped). The officer said he wouldn't give me a ticket, but the accident went against my insurance (not sure how the whole points thing worked out, but it was noted on my premium that there was an incident). What I got out of what the officer was telling me was that even though she had more than enough time to stop (I was probably hit at less than 15 miles an hour and she never even hit the brakes until after we hit) it was still my fault because I was blocking her way. I'm not sure how that plays out in CA, but that's how it went for me in NJ.
 

Sir Humpsalot

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Nov 26, 2006
Messages
3,996
Reaction score
93
Bedlam said:
Which is why, as a motorcyclist, I HATES those stupid #$*&! "spinner" rims.
As a motorcyclist, I actually appreciate the spinner rims. It alerts me to the presence of a douchebag before they even make a move. Without them, we'd have to wait until the driver actually does something stupid to realize they're a douchebag. :cross:
 
OP
DeathBrewer

DeathBrewer

Maniacally Malty
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
21,787
Reaction score
316
Location
Oakland, CA
well, my insurance says that i am not at fault but we'll see if he disputes it.

and i said my the nose of my car was in the intersection...there was an island between us and i may have been only a little past it.

i was actually planning on making the turn until i saw him. i don't turn into the intersection until i know i'm making a turn. i got a few feet with a pump of the gas and then i saw him.

u-turns are legal in california and this intersection specifically, it is perfectly legal. the cop even told me to make a u-turn to park ;)

he WAS going too fast. looking at the rest of the traffic behind him, he left everyone in the dust. almost all my friends right motorcycles. i don't have a bike myself (cuz i know stuff like this happens every day to my friends and i really am already too messed up to risk it) but i'm not ignorant to how they're handled.

he made a bad move. he was already going too fast and he slammed his brakes. if he would have slowed down, he probably could have even made a turn or simply avoided me. he paniced.

i should hear from my insurance tomorrow. hopefully there were no issues.

and yes, i should have talked more with the cops or at least got their names. he didn't get their information either and he was really cool about the whole thing, which tells me he knew he messed up (and was glad to be alive.)

i'll keep y'all posted.

(gremlins, lol, great imagery)
 

Gnome

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2006
Messages
201
Reaction score
7
Location
Atlanta/ Phoenix
If you hadn't been there, preparing to turn into his path, at that time would he have fallen down? " for every action there is an equal opposite reaction" Quote.
 

shafferpilot

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2007
Messages
1,579
Reaction score
17
Location
Cincinnati OH
A good lesson for all bike riders. There's a couple riding courses put on by the motorcycle safety foundation that are worth a look. Ohio subsidizes the courses so it's really cheap here, around $40. Experienced riders should check it out too. I go every other year, myself. The riding portion is just fun (when was the last time you rode an old 125 dirtbike?), but the classroom portion just plain saves lives. It centers around anticipating problems and being prepared to react properly. The right thing to do in this case would have been for the guy to slow down as soon as he saw you in the turn lane. Then when you started to pull out, he should have used maximum controllable braking, but stayed in a straight line. Then if you were continuing into the intersection, he should have released the brakes completely and swerved behind your car. If you stopped, he should have released the brakes completely and swerved in front of your car. In a panic it's easy to try and do everything at once, like braking hard AND trying to swerve at the same time.... That's gonna result in a high side wreck everytime.... like it did in this case. Anyways, all you riders out there should check it out:

http://www.msf-usa.org/
 

Bedlam

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2006
Messages
1,019
Reaction score
55
Location
East Tennessee
I agree with the MSF courses wholeheartedly. I did the ERC course last summer and just had a blast. Good times...

Been wanting to do some track courses, too, hopefully in the near future.
 

jdoiv

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2007
Messages
1,151
Reaction score
8
Location
Nashville, TN
As a former rider (sold my bike this spring, first time with out a bike in 14 years), I too can see both sides of this. As someone pointed out earlier, selective memory or vision is a very common thing for drivers. They aren't used to looking for motorcyclists and they will see right through one.

Not to say that this happened here, but as a motorcyclist you have to be aware of the fact that drivers just won't see you until it is much too late. Also, since there wasn't contact, I think this comes down to the cyclist not being in complete control of his motorcycle or surroundings and should share part of the blame.

Instead of slamming on the brakes, he should have swerved and stepped on the gas. I'm surprised that the police who weren't present didn't bother to write a report. I would have asked for one if I were either the rider or the driver. Not sure what the laws in California are on this, though I did my fair share of dodging drivers when I lived in LA.

For any riders out there, I have found that riding in urban areas that keeping a thumb on the horn and index finger on the passing light trigger to be great assets in getting drivers to see you. Flash the brights anytime you see someone looking to pull out into traffic and you'll find that they suddenly "see" you.
 

Sir Humpsalot

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Nov 26, 2006
Messages
3,996
Reaction score
93
DeathBrewer said:
he WAS going too fast. looking at the rest of the traffic behind him, he left everyone in the dust.
My puny 650cc always leaves cars in the dust. If the motorcyclist is paying attention to the light and leaves promptly when the light turns green, the motorcyclist can do a relaxed and leisurely 0-30 in 1.8 seconds. That has a way of leaving cars in the dust... even if you aren't speeding. Most drivers haven't even gotten off the brake pedal yet... So I see that as faulty proof. Motorcycles accelerate so hard that they can easily leave cars in the dust without speeding.

If I stand behind you, call your name, and toss a baseball as you start to turn around, you freak out and think it's coming at you fast. If I stand in front of you and toss the same ball, you see it as a soft lob. We always think things that surprise us are coming faster than they really are.

I mean, there are douches who ride too fast... but every motorcyclist, regardless of whether they ride too fast, accepts that we will always be at fault... because we are the ones riding the dangerous and fast vehicle. Most experienced riders ALWAYS view themselves as being at fault... because we know that people in cars aren't going to be safe enough... so we take it upon ourselves to be safer than the guy in a car at all times. In that endeavor, this rider failed. He no doubt takes that as a cut against his riding prowess because he knows he should have been better able to predict, and cope with another driver's negligent actions while he rides.
 

z987k

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2007
Messages
3,512
Reaction score
35
Location
Anchorage
Sir Humpsalot said:
My puny 650cc always leaves cars in the dust. If the motorcyclist is paying attention to the light and leaves promptly when the light turns green, the motorcyclist can do a relaxed and leisurely 0-30 in 1.8 seconds. That has a way of leaving cars in the dust... even if you aren't speeding. Most drivers haven't even gotten off the brake pedal yet... So I see that as faulty proof. Motorcycles accelerate so hard that they can easily leave cars in the dust without speeding.

If I stand behind you, call your name, and toss a baseball as you start to turn around, you freak out and think it's coming at you fast. If I stand in front of you and toss the same ball, you see it as a soft lob. We always think things that surprise us are coming faster than they really are.
That's true to. when I'm feeling like doing some spirited driving, without breaking any laws I can just do my 0-whatever the speed limit is real quick, which in turn will leave every car in the dust and even put me by myself.
 
OP
DeathBrewer

DeathBrewer

Maniacally Malty
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
21,787
Reaction score
316
Location
Oakland, CA
yes, but there were plenty of cars behind him and they weren't travelling near as fast. these are long blocks between lights and i can guarantee that the other cars were going over 35...that's how people drive there. so with that in mind he was well over the speed limit. he also was pretty far away when we saw each other. bikes can stop faster than cars too...but he wasn't able to slow down enough to even see what i was doing. he panicked.

and no, gnome, he wouldn't have fallen down if i wouldn't have been there. but if he would have had complete control of his vehicle and the time to make a decision, he would have been able to see that i was not going to enter the lane until he had passed.
 

Sir Humpsalot

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Nov 26, 2006
Messages
3,996
Reaction score
93
Sorry for going on and on. This just happens to be a topic that's important to me. I hear a lot of the same excuses thrown around, some valid, some not. Since it's a topic that means a lot to me I at least like to point out the things that flat out don't make sense, the opinions that come from ignorance. It's like when you encounter a person who says homebrew makes you blind. At that point, you have a choice... do you educate or do you walk away? If you want to educate, you try to stay civil, be respectful. I'm trying to do that here and thankfully, I like you DB, so it's not hard at all to do. I hope we can see eye to eye on most of this stuff...

DeathBrewer said:
yes, but there were plenty of cars behind him and they weren't travelling near as fast. these are long blocks between lights and i can guarantee that the other cars were going over 35...that's how people drive there. so with that in mind he was well over the speed limit. he also was pretty far away when we saw each other. bikes can stop faster than cars too...
No, Not really...

On the one hand, per square inch, motorcycle tires are more grippy than car tires, on the other hand, bike tires have a round bottom because they are designed to have traction while leaning, whereas the car tires have a flat bottom. This gives the car tire far greater contact patch with the pavement. Not to mention that they have 4 wheels from which to derive traction versus two.

In addition, most cars have ABS while most bikes don't (some do nowadays and it's getting more common, but still far less than 10%).

In addition, if a car skids, the driver can get off the brakes and reapply them. If a motorcycle skids the front wheel for more than a half of a second or so, the rider will hit the pavement almost every time. In short, the penalty for trying to over-brake is far more severe on a bike than in a car, causing most riders to err on the side of caution...

Here's a source that more or less obfuscates the answer...
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Motorcycle-Safety-Driveability-790/Motorcycle-Stopping-Distance.htm
It was probably true in 1980. And it is probably true that bikes can stop faster than cars today...BUT.

Modern bike brakes are fantastic. But modern car brakes, especially with the advent of antilock braking systems, are fantastic too. So let's qualify the answer.

Take an average rider and an average driver on/in modern machines, the car can probably stop faster. (One thing though is that it depends on the car in question. If the car does not have antilock brakes, this may go the opposite way.)

Take an expert rider and an average driver on/in modern machines, the bike can definitely stop faster.

Take an expert rider and an expert driver on/in modern machines, and the car can probably stop faster....but that would be close, and probably again depend on the car.

Much of the rhetoric about bikes being able to stop faster than cars is, in my opinion, old public relations tactics (to wake people up to the fact that riders need plenty of room) that have taken on a life of their own--repeat something enough times and it becomes "true" in the minds of most people, even though reality may be different. It's still a good idea to tell drivers that bikes can stop faster, in order to get them to not follow so close....
but he wasn't able to slow down enough to even see what i was doing. he panicked.
When a driver panics, he presses the brake pedal too hard and a mild skid ensues... or ABS saves his butt and brings him to a safe stop. When a rider panics, it takes less than a half of a second for that front wheel to lock up, creating a grease spot on the pavement. The next thing that happens is the rider begins to fall to the ground. Motorcycles don't have the 4-wheel safety net. When that front wheel loses traction, it's just about game over. The experts say a rider has about a half of a second in which to save a front wheel skid. From there, the two wheels aren't stable like 4, and the bike starts to fall to one side and there is pretty much no saving it at that point. It's not much of a stretch to say that a skidding front wheel is just about equal to "going down" for most street bike riders.

Imagine how many times you've skidded your car... if each one of those times resulted in some road rash or a trip to the hospital... then, just exactly how hard would you want to get on your brakes in an emergency? That's the balance many street riders face. Sure their bikes are supremely capable, but once you get out of your comfort zone, the stakes climb mighty high and mighty fast.

For car drivers, or for riders with a lot of dirt bike experience, it's a piece of cake to handle a front wheel skid. In fact, in my car, I do it nearly every day. It's a non event. But on the bike? It pretty much dirties up my shorts every time I get close.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top