It's official. My sanitation sucks.

[IslandLizard]

Where do you buy your extract? If it's old it can give you off flavors.

Starsan
Do you mix it at the recommended rate, 1 oz per 5 gallons of water?
How long do you submerge your items?
After items are cleaned with PBW, do you rinse them well before dunking into Starsan?

Your fermentor
Any deep scratches in it?
Do you clean it with PBW/Oxiclean/Washing Soda?
Do you rinse well before Starsan treatment. How do you apply the Starsan? How long does it sit before you fill your fermentor?

Those 2 pictures, your beer looks fine in the bucket, ready to drink. How does it taste, before bottling?

Bottling
Bottling bucket with spigot on bottom?
How do you clean that bucket and spigot? <== That spigot is a bug trap!
Do you take the bottle filler apart for a thorough clean and Starsan treatment?
How clean are your (racking) hoses and the piece of hose attaching your bottling wand?

Extract vs. All Grain
Some people simply don't like the taste of extract brews. I would do a small, say, 1 gallon all-grain batch, using a large pot to mash in (stick in warm turned off oven). I know it adds extra equipment and lots of new variables, but after the boil, it all follows the same route.

 

[cloudybrewer]

What are your gravity readings and how the heck do you measure 1/10th of an ounce?

The star San bottle has a measuring bulb on the top. I measured out a full ounce, dumped it in the water, then got just a touch more. One tenth was an estimate, but it was about 1/4th the way to the 1/2 ounce line, which would have been 12.5 percent of an ounce.

Gravity readings have all been roughly the same. OG of 1.050 to 1.053. Finishes from 1.010 to 1.012.
This last batch got a bit more DME, since I only had a little leftover and didn't want to throw it. So it's OG was 1.060 and finished at 1.013.

 

[Chanoc]

And now I feel dumb. I never posted the original recipe.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=32811
It's homebrewer_99's Paulaner Hefewiezen.

And here are my exact ingredients.

Sorry....
I was too drunk to think straight. I totally mixed two completely different flaws.
I was looking for acetaldehyde, which tates like Green Apples, would that be a more accurate description of your defect?
And there´s no Acetaldehyde rest.
I was looking for acetaldehyde, which tastes like Green Apple. Would that be a more accurate description of your defect?
Your pictures don´t look like they have an infection.
Hope this helps.

 

[eric19312]

Here's a couple pics, if it works.

This looks perfectly healthy. I'd drink the whole gravity sample out of that bucket.

I've read the thread and suspect you have issue with yeast. Your sanitation practices appear sound. And maybe poor quality extract. LME supposedly goes bad pretty fast, DME is supposedly more stable. I think most people find their beer gets better when they switch to all grain though I suspect a good part of this improvement is the fast early learning curve. But as you are working with extract do think about the freshness of the extract.

Back to the yeast. Sanitation and yeast are both about competition. I do what I can sanitizing everything that comes in contact with the beer but I chill in an open kettle in the garage with the garage door open on a windy day. When I bottle it is again in an open bucket. I have weldless ball valves on my brew kettle instead of sanitary welts with triclover fittings (oh how can this possibly produce clean beer!). My garage is full of lactobacillus because I crush my grain in there and my neighborhood is full of all kinds of airborne yeast and other bugs. I also have sour projects in my garage with lacto, pedio and brett cultures. My brewing environment is downright scary. So I accept that my wort is most likely contaminated when it goes into the fermentor and seek to outcompete the contaminants with a good healthy yeast pitch.

Easiest way to assure a big healthy yeast pitch is not making starters. Easiest way is dry yeast, properly rehydrated, and don't be stingy with it it is cheap. I like that you are trying nut brown ale. That should be easy to do with one of the available british dry yeast products. Pale ales are also easy and can be done with dry American or dry British yeast strains quite successfully.

Good luck and keep brewing.

 

[brewcat]

Here's a couple pics, if it works.

Looks like some yeast and left behind hop or grain. Looks normal. So I doubt any of your beers have been infected. It is something else. Here are my observations:

If anything, I think you're fermenting 3068 too low. I'd want it fermented higher, like 72. I'll also say you don't need a starter on this particular beer.

How have you been steeping the grains? Is that right that they are using munich as a steeping grain? I'd cut that out completely.

I'm also wondering if the IBUs are low. Is the kit not accounting for Hallertau AA%. At 2.7% I'm guessing the balance is off. I know this year on multiple recipes I've had to increase Hallertau.

On your next attempt at the Paulaner clone. Keep it simple. Smack Wyeast pack at least 3 hours before pitching. Pitch into wort simply made of LME and/or DME with hop addition at 60 minutes to finish IBU at 13. Ferment at 72. Check gravity 7-10 days into fermentation. If stable 3 days later, bottle.

 

[Dcpcooks]

Here's a couple pics, if it works.

That's kreusen not an infection.

 

[jabba11]

I agree that does not appear to be infection in those pics to me at all.

 

[cloudybrewer]

Where do you buy your extract? If it's old it can give you off flavors.
From Northern Brewer.
I usually Brew within two months of ordering, but usually have a pound or so of DME left over that gets used in the next batch. How old is too old, would you say?

Starsan
Do you mix it at the recommended rate, 1 oz per 5 gallons of water?
How long do you submerge your items?
After items are cleaned with PBW, do you rinse them well before dunking into Starsan?
yes, 1 ounce per five gallons, except this last time I used a touch more than an ounce. One batch per beer ( brewing and bottling) and then I get rid of it and make new again next time since I've been having problems. I make sure everything is submerged or sprayed and stays wet for at least five minutes.
Bigger items like the fermenter bucket and sprayed multiple times and stay wet for longer. And Yes, I rinse the hell out of stuff with hot water.

Your fermentor
Any deep scratches in it?
Do you clean it with PBW/Oxiclean/Washing Soda?
Do you rinse well before Starsan treatment. How do you apply the Starsan? How long does it sit before you fill your fermentor?
. First two batches used the same 5 gal buckets. Batch three was split in smaller 1.25 gal buckets. Batch four in a 7 gal bucket. All purchased new and never cleaned with anything abrasive.
fermenter preparation is the same as most other things - cleaned with PBW and rinse the hell out of it with hot water before Brew day. On Brew day, when the wort is close to pitching temps, I'll spray it with star San mixture until the whole inside is soaking wet and even the top couple inches of the outside. I'll continue to spray it to keep it all wet until the wort is ready. When I'm ready to transfer, I'll dump all the excess sanitizer out of the bucket into the sink, and transfer. It's had to sit for as much as a half hour, but never dry, same with the lid.


Those 2 pictures, your beer looks fine in the bucket, ready to drink. How does it taste, before bottling?

. The tart flavor is already there at bottling, always and doesn't condition out, even after as.kuch as six months.

Bottling
Bottling bucket with spigot on bottom?
How do you clean that bucket and spigot? <== That spigot is a bug trap!
Do you take the bottle filler apart for a thorough clean and Starsan treatment?
How clean are your (racking) hoses and the piece of hose attaching your bottling wand?

. This bucket gets the same regimen as the fermenter. The spigot and wand all come apart for cleaning and sanitization, I submerged them for ten minutes to a half hour,
depending on when I'm ready to get started. My hoses were new and get cleaned and submerged in sanitizer, too. They are nice perfectly clear and clean.

Extract vs. All Grain
Some people simply don't like the taste of extract brews. I would do a small, say, 1 gallon all-grain batch, using a large pot to mash in (stick in warm turned off oven). I know it adds extra equipment and lots of new variables, but after the boil, it all follows the same route.

this has been suggested by several people, so I do plan to try this. But I need to make up an extract kit the I already bought first. No sense in letting it get old.

.

 

[jimmykx250]

Nonsense. Ignore water-building, pH, and sparging for your first effort, and don't worry too much about exact mash temps or efficiency. Use a strike water calculator to estimate the strike temperature you need, or just go the easy route with a reasonable estimate (hard to go too wrong mashing into 7.5 gallons at 158F). Mush the grain a bit when you mash in to make sure there are no clumps, cover the kettle and wrap it in a sleeping bag, blanket, or winter jacket for an hour. Drain and squeeze it as well as you can (suspended over the kettle as you start your boil. Over an upturned colander in a bucket. Sitting in the bottom of a bucket that you drain off every few minutes, etc.). Boil, chill (or get a no-chill cube and try that method, hard to get an infection in a sealed container that was sterilized by five gallons of boiling wort), pitch, ferment, package, and drink. All the time, sanitize, sanitize, sanitize. Maybe buy some iodophor and use that instead of your Starsan - it's not as sexy but it actually kills more bugs.

BIAB brewing takes longer than an extract batch and it's a little more complicated, but there's no reason you couldn't give it a try right away. If the extract is part of your problem, it's possible a BIAB batch would clear it up nicely.

One more question: when did you start using fermentation temperature control? If your first three batches were all fermented at ambient temperatures and only the most recent (infected) one was temp-controlled, it's possible the off-flavor was fermentation temperature related and the most recent, infected batch wouldn't have had that issue if it hadn't gotten infected. Also, when you control your fermentation temps, what temperature do you set the chamber to and how does your temperature controller measure the temperature (i.e. where is the probe)? If you're using kit instructions, they might also suggest temps that are way too high (my first brew said to use S-04 at 24C, which was a decidedly bad idea), and even if you're trying to ferment at proper temps, your beer might actually be fermenting much warmer than intended depending on how you control the temperature. Just a couple thoughts.

This guy is on point!!!!

 

[cloudybrewer]

Sorry....
I was too drunk to think straight. I totally mixed two completely different flaws.
I was looking for acetaldehyde, which tates like Green Apples, would that be a more accurate description of your defect?
And there´s no Acetaldehyde rest.

You could maybe say that, but it isn't exact. I've been through the lists of common off flavors and their causes many times, and I just can't nail down a good description. But then, my wife says I have a caveman palate. My descriptions of food rarely exceed good or not good.

 

[20grit]

Do you sanitize your caps? I've not seen that listed anywhere. I put all mine in a cup with some starsan in it. They go on right after the bottle is filled, but don't go to the capper for a few minutes.

 

[cloudybrewer]

LME supposedly goes bad pretty fast, DME is supposedly more stable.

How long would you say an unopened bag of DME is good for.
How about an opened bag of leftovers?

So I accept that my wort is most likely contaminated when it goes into the fermentor and seek to outcompete the contaminants with a good healthy yeast pitch.

Easiest way to assure a big healthy yeast pitch is not making starters. Easiest way is dry yeast, properly rehydrated, and don't be stingy with it it is cheap.

Many say they don't make a starter for hefewiezens. But since I was getting a bad flavor that may have been attributed to poor yeast health, I did. So I guess I thought&#8203; I was over pitching, at least according to style. I'm not arguing your points about dry yeast; I agree. It is much easier to get a higher cell count without the added sanitation worries.

.

 

[eric19312]

Here are a couple more ideas about sanitation and chasing off flavors. If issue is with the sanitation of your bottles or caps you should see variability in the bottled beer. Some will be fine, others will be gushers or show serious flaws.

If the off flavor is something you don't see in the gravity sample on bottling day but shows up in the bottles after they age suspect your bottling bucket...including valve, spigot and wand.

Finally here is an interesting test that James Spencer and Chris Colby discussed on Basic Brewing Radio a few years ago they called a wort stability test. Here is a description of how to do it and how to interpret the results from BYO. If you do this and get 48 or 72 hours clean but the batch still comes out bad then you know the source of contamination is in your fermentor or further downstream in the process.

To perform a wort stability test, do the following: Near the end of your brewday, take a small glass jar with a sealable lid and sanitize it by boiling it in water for about 5 minutes. Let it cool and wait until you are ready to transfer your wort to your fermenter. During the transfer, collect some chilled, un-aerated wort in the jar and cover loosely with the lid (don't seal the lid). If you use an in-line aerator, shut if off just prior to collecting the sample, then restart.

Store the wort sample somewhere warm -- ideally around 80 °F (27 °C) -- and shielded from strong light. Check every 12 hours (or more frequently) and see when the first signs of fermentation are visible (usually as a spot of foam on the surface of the wort). Once you see evidence of fermentation, smell the wort and note the aroma. (If you feel brave, you could taste it, but I wouldn't recommend it. It won't hurt you, but it likely won't taste good.)

If you see fermentation within 24 hours, your wort is seriously contaminated. Your beer will likely exhibit off aromas and flavors. If you see fermentation in 48 hours, it still contaminated, but not as much as in the previous case. Your beer may or may not be overtly sour or phenolic (or show other signs of bacterial contamination), but it will likely be suffering in some way. If the wort is still clear at 48 hours (at 80 °F), your level of contamination is not likely to be a problem and your beer should smell and tast fine. If your wort is still clear at 72 hours, your wort is very clean.

 

[shoengine]

You could maybe say that, but it isn't exact. I've been through the lists of common off flavors and their causes many times, and I just can't nail down a good description. But then, my wife says I have a caveman palate. My descriptions of food rarely exceed good or not good.

That sounds like she is offering her services as a taster. I'd call that bluff.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

My first batch was similar - a hefenweizen, extract with specialty grain steep, and wyeast 3068. Came out somewhat carbondated, but head dissipated within a minute. Fermented warm (70-72) and came out all banana and no clove. It is drinkable but disappointing. Also my smack pack of 3068 was tight as a drum after 12 hours, so that could be an issue.

With three similar batches coming out similarly disappointing, I would suggest going to a different beer for a batch and see how that turns out. You might just not like this version.

 

[shoengine]

For what it is worth, my first two extract batches turned out precisely like you describe with the tart, almost sour twang to it. I thought it was my process, and in retrospect, it could have been. However a year after my first extract batch, and months after the second, I got a Brewers Best kit, Red Ale, that I made using the instructions included, and it turned out good. The second kit, West Coast IPA, turned out even better. Then I found out about LME and how it has a critical shelf life. I now blame those first two batches on an old Mr. Beer kit that sat too long.

Additionally, I use the Brewer's Friend templates in conjunction with the instructions in the kit.

 

[SGTSparty]

I know everyone's trying to help but can we focus on what the OP is saying?

Things we know:

1. He's using DME (so old LME is not an issue)
2. DME is used within 2 months of ordering (at least the vast majority of it) and shipped from Northern Brewer, some unused DME is carried over to the next brew day if there is left over DME
3. He's using a correct StarSan mix ratio and cleaning/sanitizing process has been out lined in post #'s 2, 15, 20, 32 and 38
4. Off flavor is present at bottling so bottling bucket, tubing, bottle and cap sanitation are not the cause
5. Flavor is not subtle, secondary or hidden.
6. With regards to giving up extract for BIAP: "this has been suggested by several people, so I do plan to try this. But I need to make up an extract kit the I already bought first. No sense in letting it get old."

Questions for OP:
1. How often do you brew? Specifically, if you did use leftover DME from the previous batch how long was it since it had been opened?
2. How do you store your left over DME?
3. How long are your batches sitting in primary and are you sure you're getting a good seal on your fermenter? Seems unlikely you're getting oxidized in primary though.

my questions for the crowd are:
1. Do we think his use of a pound or so left over DME could be causing the old extract issue folks have mentioned?

 

[shoengine]

My bad, I totally missed the DME part.

 

[calgary222]

Just scanning this while I am on a teleconference for work So forgive me if this has been asked and answered -
How long are you in the primary? Early on I was doing kits I was following their times or simply waiting for the krausen to disappear before kegging - turned out that often this was too long, the activity and thereby the CO2 generation that is protecting your beer had stopped - the result was bugs getting in at the primary, slight off flavor initially, more later...

 

[cloudybrewer]

If anything, I think you're fermenting 3068 too low. I'd want it fermented higher, like 72. I'll also say you don't need a starter on this particular beer.

. Since I was having problems, I suspected yeast health. So I began making 1L starters and lowered my temp to make sure the yeast weren't throwing fusel alcohol or anything else nasty tasting. Also, I did a TON of reading on hefe fermentations, and found that Jamil recommends against under pitching and under aerating, and ferments at 62F. Braukaiser recommends 62-64F because higher temps can result in a thin beer with more alcohols, which I thought described mine fairly close. I was willing to sacrifice yeast character if it meant I could actually drink it. So that's why I did what I did. Many on this forum underpitch and go higher temps, though, with with success. Hell if I know. Following the professional advice didn't help,
so I might as well try higher next time.

How have you been steeping the grains? Is that right that they are using munich as a steeping grain? I'd cut that out completely.

Recipe calls for 4 ounces of grain. I steep in 2 qts of 150F water for 20 mins and sparge with 2 qts to 1 gal of 150F water. ( I've played with the sparge water amount a bit.) I was confused as to why Munich was used, too, as everything I've read says it can't be steeped.

I'm also wondering if the IBUs are low. Is the kit not accounting for Hallertau AA%. At 2.7% I'm guessing the balance is off. I know this year on multiple recipes I've had to increase Hallertau.

. The recipe calls for 3 AA. Since mine have all been 2.7 I've adjusted my recipe by using more than an ounce to hit that 3% mark.

On your next attempt at the Paulaner clone. Keep it simple. Smack Wyeast pack at least 3 hours before pitching. Pitch into wort simply made of LME and/or DME with hop addition at 60 minutes to finish IBU at 13. Ferment at 72. Check gravity 7-10 days into fermentation. If stable 3 days later, bottle.
. At what age is the smack pack not enough? Lots of people say to just use the pack as is, but no one ever says how old it is. Are they assuming yeast that's less than a month old, three months, what do you think?

.

.

 

[cloudybrewer]

Do you sanitize your caps? I've not seen that listed anywhere. I put all mine in a cup with some starsan in it. They go on right after the bottle is filled, but don't go to the capper for a few minutes.

I do this, too. Nearly identical procedure.

 

[cloudybrewer]

Here are a couple more ideas about sanitation and chasing off flavors. If issue is with the sanitation of your bottles or caps you should see variability in the bottled beer. Some will be fine, others will be gushers or show serious flaws.

If the off flavor is something you don't see in the gravity sample on bottling day but shows up in the bottles after they age suspect your bottling bucket...including valve, spigot and wand.

The off flavor exists after fermentation and doesn't really change much after bottled.

That test sounds very interesting. I'm definitely going to put that in my Brew notes and try it, even if the general consensus is that I don't have infection, simply because I like research. Thanks.

 

[cloudybrewer]

That sounds like she is offering her services as a taster. I'd call that bluff.

I had her try the sample the other night to see what description she would give, even though she doesn't care for beer very much. After that I went back downstairs and opened the bucket, since I had no intention of bottling another crappy batch, and saw what I thought was the infection. You should have seen her face when I told her!

 

[cloudybrewer]

Questions for OP:
1. How often do you brew? Specifically, if you did use leftover DME from the previous batch how long was it since it had been opened?

I brewed last April (witbeir kit).
Then July ( Paulaner clone, all new ingredients)
then September (out of 6 pounds DME used, one pound was leftover from July) and April (used 4.5 pounds new, 1.5 pounds leftover).

2. How do you store your left over DME?

When I know the bag won't get used up, I only cut off a corner of it instead or ripping it wide open, just enough to dump out what I need. Then I push out all the air and twist the open corner of the bag as tight as I can, double it over, and twisty tie it shut. The the DME bag goes into a ziplock bag, again with as much air pushed out as possible .
It gets stored in a cupboard in the basement.

3. How long are your batches sitting in primary and are you sure you're getting a good seal on your fermenter? Seems unlikely you're getting oxidized in primary though.

three weeks, 17 days, 22 days, and and 17 days.
No my fermenters don't seal. The bucket lids have to be pushed on and give a difinitive snap when closing, but once they are all the way on they can be jiggled around a bit. My airlocks never have any activity because the CO2 escapes around the lid. Ive read lots of comments on here saying that that isn't uncommon with buckets and makes no difference as long as bacteria can't fall into the fermenter. Is that not actually true? I thought that as long as you don't move the bucket or open the lid, all is well?

my questions for the crowd are:
1. Do we think his use of a pound or so left over DME could be causing the old extract issue folks have mentioned?

.

 

[cloudybrewer]

Just scanning this while I am on a teleconference for work So forgive me if this has been asked and answered -
How long are you in the primary? Early on I was doing kits I was following their times or simply waiting for the krausen to disappear before kegging - turned out that often this was too long, the activity and thereby the CO2 generation that is protecting your beer had stopped - the result was bugs getting in at the primary, slight off flavor initially, more later...

17 days to three weeks. How do bugs get into your primary if you don't open it? How long do you ferment before packaging now? Some on here say three weeks minimum for any beer. Others will keg in a week if the gravity hits predicted final.

 

[SGTSparty]

No my fermenters don't seal. The bucket lids have to be pushed on and give a difinitive snap when closing, but once they are all the way on they can be jiggled around a bit. My airlocks never have any activity because the CO2 escapes around the lid. Ive read lots of comments on here saying that that isn't uncommon with buckets and makes no difference as long as bacteria can't fall into the fermenter. Is that not actually true? I thought that as long as you don't move the bucket or open the lid, all is well?

Its not uncommon and I think the vast majority of the time its not a problem, even if its not a best practice per say. I also ferment in buckets but I'm able to get a good seal with my lids (I check my seal by pressing down on my lid in the center and watching the waterline shift in my 3 piece air lock. Probably not relevant to you if you know you don't get a good seal.) I don't think this is really your issue though. My thought was if you weren't getting a good seal and leaving your beer in primary for an extended period of time you maybe getting oxidation which can stale beer quickly and can cause some wheat beers to get kind of tart and loose their other unique characteristics (at least this was my experience with my blue moon clone last summer) but you're not really leaving them in primary that long. Check one more thing off the list of possible culprits I guess.

 

[shoengine]

I had her try the sample the other night to see what description she would give, even though she doesn't care for beer very much. After that I went back downstairs and opened the bucket, since I had no intention of bottling another crappy batch, and saw what I thought was the infection. You should have seen her face when I told her!

I might've kept mum on the possible bacterial infection until confirmation...

Funny though!

 

[cloudybrewer]

Extract can/will give you a darker beer. It's also more likely to provide off-flavors due to age. This doesn't mean that you will automatically have issues if you brew with extract, but fresher is always better.

Where do you buy your extract? If it's old it can give you off flavors.

. But as you are working with extract do think about the freshness of the extract.

1. Do we think his use of a pound or so left over DME could be causing the old extract issue folks have mentioned?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=543547

In the above thread, the guy had a bag of DME open for a few months that turned into a brick and most responses said to go ahead and use it. For what it's worth, I've never had so much as one little clump in any of my leftovers. It is always still exactly the same as day one, in scent, consistency, appearance, and even taste.

 

[shoengine]

I don't think it is the DME. Your issues are too consistent, unless this is ALL out of the same package.

 

[eric19312]

I think stale extract is more of an issue for LME than for DME.