Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I did a batch with 11.5g+1.5+1.5 and really liked the results. 5 gallons.

Did you get a bunch of clove with the WB-06 that high? I did approximately 11.5+1+1 on my first 5 gal attempt and ended up with a lot of clove character. Dropped the WB-06 to 0.5 g on the next attempt and it went away, but i also didn't get any banana/bubblegum like I do from the core TH IPAs.

What were your other parameters? Mash temp/pH, pitch/ferment temp, OG, attenuation?

 

[Sawhorse-Josh]

Did you get a bunch of clove with the WB-06 that high? I did approximately 11.5+1+1 on my first 5 gal attempt and ended up with a lot of clove character. Dropped the WB-06 to 0.5 g on the next attempt and it went away, but i also didn't get any banana/bubblegum like I do from the core TH IPAs.

What were your other parameters? Mash temp/pH, pitch/ferment temp, OG, attenuation?

I did not detect any clove at all but then again I have a horrible nose for that sort of thing. It certainly didn't say 'belgian' or 'wheat beer' to me though. It was fruity/tropical. Certainly not TH or trillium quality but better than many beers I've paid for!

Mash temp - 155 for 60m
Mash pH - ~5.2 (acid malt used)
Pitch - ~75
Ferment - 7 days starting at 66 degrees and ending at 72. (i use an immersion pro for temp control)
Dry hopped (loose in fermenter) around 48hrs which was about 1.024
OG was 1.073, FG was 1.016 for about 7.5% abv. ~78% attenuation I believe.

I rehydrated all the yeasts together in some 95degree water and the slurry was about 75-80 when I pitched it into the 75 wort. I added yeast nutrient to the boil.

I forced carbed at 45-50 degrees (my cold basement when it was about 5F outside) using a carb stone at 12psi. drank well at 8 days and was great at 3wks.

Only thing of note I think was that the boil was VERY aggressive. I boiled off almost 2 gallons in 1 hour and overshot my target of 1.071

My malt bill was 80% golden promise with 2lbs of wheat malt and 1lb of victory (and 4oz of acid malt). No sugar in this batch.

I didn't use whirlfloc but I will going forward. This one was 'murky' for the first ~2 wks. Looks better now. I'll take a fresh pic tonight.


Cheers.

 

[Sawhorse-Josh]

Um, I named that middle picture "mine with Lights on" but that might not be lights on in the middle. too much sediment in the bottom of the glass. must have been one of mine. I did a Rakau single hop that was...weird. Used Farmhouse's "ne ipa blend" from omega labs. That's probably what that was.

 

[NJGeorge]

I've been using 13-16 g in a 5 gal batch. I think you could probably get away with less, but that 13 g neighborhood was convenient for me because a package of one of these yeasts is 11.5 g. One of my attempts was a 1.062 and the other was 1.072. I upped my pitch rate by a couple grams for the higher gravity one, but that probably wasn't necessary.

Seems like most people have been pitching together. I am seriously considering two separate fermentations for my next attempt - one small one, warm pitch/ferment with just WB-06, and the other the balance of a 5 gal batch with S-04 and T-58, fermented cool. Then blend at kegging.

I might try the separate fermentation as well. My question is, how much wort to use for the wb-06? I’m doing 2.5 gal batches. Also, does that get hopped/dry hopped or does the main fermentation just get the hops?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I might try the separate fermentation as well. My question is, how much wort to use for the wb-06? I’m doing 2.5 gal batches. Also, does that get hopped/dry hopped or does the main fermentation just get the hops?

So I am biting the bullet and doing this. I brewed a 3-ish quart batch yesterday and am brewing the main batch today.

I can tell you what I'm doing, not saying it's the right thing to do, but it's what I settled on. I tried to somewhat match the grist I want for the bigger batch, except for the carafoam. So about 3% C10 and 4% acidulated with the rest being pils (I will post the full recipe when I've brewed the whole thing). I want to make the small batch a banana-bubblegum bomb, so I pulled every trick out of the bag. High gravity, underpitch, no aeration/oxygenation, pitch and ferment warm, high simple sugar in the wort (low mash temp), malt with the least modification available to me (Weyermann pils).

In that 3-3.5 quart batch, I pitched 0.35 g WB-06. Single hop addition of 2 oz Citra at flameout for a 10 min stand. I have no plans to dry hop the small batch, but i am still considering it. Pitched about 23 hours ago and it's going gangbusters already. Smells super duper bubblegummy out the airlock.

Edit: I should mention this is for a 5 gal total batch.

 

[TheHairyHop]

So I am biting the bullet and doing this. I brewed a 3-ish quart batch yesterday and am brewing the main batch today.

I can tell you what I'm doing, not saying it's the right thing to do, but it's what I settled on. I tried to somewhat match the grist I want for the bigger batch, except for the carafoam. So about 3% C10 and 4% acidulated with the rest being pils (I will post the full recipe when I've brewed the whole thing). I want to make the small batch a banana-bubblegum bomb, so I pulled every trick out of the bag. High gravity, underpitch, pitch and ferment warm, high simple sugar in the wort (low mash temp), malt with the least modification available to me (Weyermann pils).

In that 3-3.5 quart batch, I pitched 0.35 g WB-06. Single hop addition of 2 oz Citra at flameout for a 10 min stand. I have no plans to dry hop the small batch, but i am still considering it. Pitched about 23 hours ago and it's going gangbusters already. Smells super duper bubblegummy out the airlock.

Edit: I should mention this is for a 5 gal total batch.

sweet. I've been meaning to do this, but I'm on my single hop kick right now, and adding new methodology is just a distraction at this point. so you're only doing WB-06 in the small batch and S-04 and T-58 in the larger one?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

so you're only doing WB-06 in the small batch and S-04 and T-58 in the larger one?

Yeah, exactly. I want to skew this batch towards the ester profile of the WB-06, since I feel like that's the ester profile I perceive the most in TH core beers. But I feel like the background spice I get in TH beers is more saison-y, i.e. T-58, which kind of led me to want to ferment the T-58 at the same temp as I would do a 100% S-04 beer, that low 60s zone. So I figured instead of doing 3 fermenters, just co-pitch the T-58 and S-04. What I'm really curious about is if the T-58 behaves any differently in t he presence of competing S-04. Some time down the line I'd like to bite the bullet again and do 3 separate fermentations to compare.

I am decocting up to mash out on the S-04/T-58 wort right now!

 

[melville]

Before I forget, a few pages back we noted TH was probably brewing a batch of Bright and according to the known 18-21 day timeframe, that beer should have dropped this Wednesday.

Wednesday cans included Bright w/ Citra.

No big deal, just wanted to offer closure on that.

 

[NJGeorge]

So I am biting the bullet and doing this. I brewed a 3-ish quart batch yesterday and am brewing the main batch today.

I can tell you what I'm doing, not saying it's the right thing to do, but it's what I settled on. I tried to somewhat match the grist I want for the bigger batch, except for the carafoam. So about 3% C10 and 4% acidulated with the rest being pils (I will post the full recipe when I've brewed the whole thing). I want to make the small batch a banana-bubblegum bomb, so I pulled every trick out of the bag. High gravity, underpitch, pitch and ferment warm, high simple sugar in the wort (low mash temp), malt with the least modification available to me (Weyermann pils).

In that 3-3.5 quart batch, I pitched 0.35 g WB-06. Single hop addition of 2 oz Citra at flameout for a 10 min stand. I have no plans to dry hop the small batch, but i am still considering it. Pitched about 23 hours ago and it's going gangbusters already. Smells super duper bubblegummy out the airlock.

Edit: I should mention this is for a 5 gal total batch.

Now we have to figure out the best way to move the beer from each fermenter without having air in the line (I suppose purging the line with co2 when moving to the next carboy.) Any ideas?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Now we have to figure out the best way to move the beer from each fermenter without having air in the line (I suppose purging the line with co2 when moving to the next carboy.) Any ideas?

I usually purge my lines at kegging anyway, although the little bit of my racking cane that is out of the liquid has some O2 in it I'm sure. Not sure what I can do about that, except purge the headspace in the keg and carb up naturally. Going to do that with this blended batch, carb up naturally with CBC-1 while throwing some keg hops at it. I recently set up a stainless mesh keg hop filter to go around my dip tube, so I should be able to keg hop loose to boot, make sure I don't lose that hop saturation.

 

[Jwin]

Perhaps combining the two on day 3 or so, when there may still be a few gravity points left, would work and lessen o2 worries?
Another option would be to suspend all of your first dry hop in the small fermentation, then dump it directly into the larger. You just want to be sure you are through the growth cycle in the larger ferment, otherwise your just showing a huge starter in.
Maybe starting the smaller ferment a day later instead of a day earlier would be better to do that, giving the so4 a headstart...?
Edit(more thinking out loud):
You could potentially underpitch the s04 to coax a bigger ester profile, then add the smaller, very active, fermentation to help it finish.

 

[KLITE]

Now we have to figure out the best way to move the beer from each fermenter without having air in the line (I suppose purging the line with co2 when moving to the next carboy.) Any ideas?

I believe all you can do is close transfer and purge everything 3 times. After all theres only so much one can do to avoid oxygenation, i believe the cbc would consume any oxygen
that would be picked up by moving the liquids.

I remember reading early on in the thread that Trillium does not naturally carb their beers and i believe it can be noticed with long travel or just time. I had a melcher st and an upper case recently and they really werent anything spectacular in fact both leaning on the oxydated side... Melcher st was decent but just didnt have that humph i imagine it has that side of the ocean. Definitely not nearly as good as the Th stuff ive had.
So ye natural carb ftw!

How much do the cans of th go for over there? Whats it like at the brewery bar? When ive had th stuff out here ive seen ppl nearly cry and glasses being thrown to the floor in disbelief a beer can actually be all that. Do ppl lose it out there too?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Perhaps combining the two on day 3 or so, when there may still be a few gravity points left, would work and lessen o2 worries?
Another option would be to suspend all of your first dry hop in the small fermentation, then dump it directly into the larger. You just want to be sure you are through the growth cycle in the larger ferment, otherwise your just showing a huge starter in.
Maybe starting the smaller ferment a day later instead of a day earlier would be better to do that, giving the so4 a headstart...?
Edit(more thinking out loud):
You could potentially underpitch the s04 to coax a bigger ester profile, then add the smaller, very active, fermentation to help it finish.

Endless room for experimentation huh? My goal with this one is to start the WB-06 warm and keep it warm to favor esters over phenols. I'm just super skittish about blending the batches before either one is fermented out, just to keep the WB-06 activity at cool temps to a minimum. Although that would be good for oxygen scavenging.

I think my first line of defense against oxidation for this one is going to be carbing up naturally. Purge everything and purge the headspace of the filled keg, and let the CBC-1 do its thing with whatever O2 is dissolved.

The difference in attenuation between the strains has occurred to me. When I blend the batches, there are going to be sugars left in the S-04/T-58 batch that the WB-06 can consume. In an ideal world the WB-06 wouldn't ferment anything after it's done fermenting the small batch, just to keep the clove to a minimum. Not really sure what to do about that. I guess just adjust primer, pitch fresh CBC-1 (maybe extra) and hope for the best. We'll see what happens, I will report back.

 

[couchsending]

My biggest issue with doing the split batches is the greater potential for O2 ingress on a small scale. Any O2 uptake absolutely crushes these beers. I guess you could transfer with a little activity left but still... I bought a few 1 gallon jugs with the goal of splitting off a little wort and do separate fermentation’s but especially with the 1 gallon jugs there is zero way to keep the O2 out when transferring. If anyone has any vessels that can ferment small quantities of wort and performed closed Co2 transfers I’m all ears.

 

[Jwin]

The small Speidels can, but that's a lot of coin.

 

[couchsending]

The smallest is 3.2 gallons.. If splitting off a small percentage of 6 gallons I wouldn’t want that much headspace.

 

[SanPancho]

My biggest issue with doing the split batches is the greater potential for O2 ingress on a small scale. Any O2 uptake absolutely crushes these beers. I guess you could transfer with a little activity left but still... I bought a few 1 gallon jugs with the goal of splitting off a little wort and do separate fermentation’s but especially with the 1 gallon jugs there is zero way to keep the O2 out when transferring. If anyone has any vessels that can ferment small quantities of wort and performed closed Co2 transfers I’m all ears.

Small torpedo cornys from morebeer. 1.5 and 2.5 sizes. Adventures in homebrewing also has deals on used w2.5s and 3s often.

 

[NJGeorge]

Endless room for experimentation huh? My goal with this one is to start the WB-06 warm and keep it warm to favor esters over phenols. I'm just super skittish about blending the batches before either one is fermented out, just to keep the WB-06 activity at cool temps to a minimum. Although that would be good for oxygen scavenging.

I think my first line of defense against oxidation for this one is going to be carbing up naturally. Purge everything and purge the headspace of the filled keg, and let the CBC-1 do its thing with whatever O2 is dissolved.

The difference in attenuation between the strains has occurred to me. When I blend the batches, there are going to be sugars left in the S-04/T-58 batch that the WB-06 can consume. In an ideal world the WB-06 wouldn't ferment anything after it's done fermenting the small batch, just to keep the clove to a minimum. Not really sure what to do about that. I guess just adjust primer, pitch fresh CBC-1 (maybe extra) and hope for the best. We'll see what happens, I will report back.

What temp and for how long are you going to natural carb at? Even with CBC, isn’t the wb-06 and or the t-58 going to continue doing work? One thing I noticed with my last batch was that it tasted awesome right out of the fermenter at day 7. No Belgian or wit off flavors. Then after letting it carb naturally with CBC for another week and tasting the beer, boom had those flavors present.

Im still not convinced TH is letting their core ipas naturally ferment for a week after one week of primary fermentation (Could be wrong). They might be doing one week of primary with spunding/natural carb at the tail end, then let the beer condition cold for two weeks before package. Doesn’t Aslin do this? Maybe at day three into primary they transfer, dry hop and maybe add sugar CBC letting it carb in brite tank. Thinking out loud of course and also not factoring in the blended fermentation’s. Thoughts?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

My biggest issue with doing the split batches is the greater potential for O2 ingress on a small scale. Any O2 uptake absolutely crushes these beers. I guess you could transfer with a little activity left but still... I bought a few 1 gallon jugs with the goal of splitting off a little wort and do separate fermentation’s but especially with the 1 gallon jugs there is zero way to keep the O2 out when transferring. If anyone has any vessels that can ferment small quantities of wort and performed closed Co2 transfers I’m all ears.

I feel like this is a bigger issue when force carbing. I agree that it's hard to eliminate O2 ingress altogether transferring from something with as small of a mouth as a 1 gal jug, but in theory active yeast should consume that O2 very quickly in the presence of fermentables, i.e. priming sugar.

Just to stack the odds though, there may be something I can rig up to do a closed CO2 transfer, the same way I do out of a 6.5 gal carboy with an orange carboy cap. Good idea for sure.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

What temp and for how long are you going to natural carb at? Even with CBC, isn’t the wb-06 and or the t-58 going to continue doing work? One thing I noticed with my last batch was that it tasted awesome right out of the fermenter at day 7. No Belgian or wit off flavors. Then after letting it carb naturally with CBC for another week and tasting the beer, boom had those flavors present.

Im still not convinced TH is letting their core ipas naturally ferment for a week after one week of primary fermentation (Could be wrong). They might be doing one week of primary with spunding/natural carb at the tail end, then let the beer condition cold for two weeks before package. Doesn’t Aslin do this? Maybe at day three into primary they transfer, dry hop and maybe add sugar CBC letting it carb in brite tank. Thinking out loud of course and also not factoring in the blended fermentation’s. Thoughts?

So in my first attempt i did 12 days on the CBC-1 in the keg at 68F, with keg hops, bagged before chilling to serving temp. That's a long time, but i was still pleased with the aroma/saturation on that batch. Just the phenols sucked, very clove-y, not that subtle almost-pepper TH thing. Actually the only reason I went that long was that I used too much primer and pegged my gauge. I used gyle to prime, which IME has more off flavors if you tap even a couple days early, so I erred on the side of caution and gave it plenty of time. Next time I'm planning to use about half as much primer and give it probably 2 extra days at 68F after the pressure stabilizes. My hunch is that will be less than 12 days.

Interesting that you had the clove phenols get worse over carbing up. I had the opposite experience, the highest clove I had was at packaging and it steadily reduced until it was -almost- gone. Wonder what the difference is that caused those opposite trends.

As far as adding CBC-1 in the primary and spunding - I don't know man. Seems like if you add CBC-1 a couple days into primary, you're adding a little bit of yeast compared to the giant population that's built up to ferment the bulk of the wort. Where cold crashing, transferring off the yeast, adding fermentables and maybe hops with CBC-1 would give the CBC-1 a fighting chance. I'm also just thinking out loud though.

 

[NJGeorge]

So in my first attempt i did 12 days on the CBC-1 in the keg at 68F, with keg hops, bagged before chilling to serving temp. That's a long time, but i was still pleased with the aroma/saturation on that batch. Just the phenols sucked, very clove-y, not that subtle almost-pepper TH thing. Actually the only reason I went that long was that I used too much primer and pegged my gauge. I used gyle to prime, which IME has more off flavors if you tap even a couple days early, so I erred on the side of caution and gave it plenty of time. Next time I'm planning to use about half as much primer and give it probably 2 extra days at 68F after the pressure stabilizes. My hunch is that will be less than 12 days.

Interesting that you had the clove phenols get worse over carbing up. I had the opposite experience, the highest clove I had was at packaging and it steadily reduced until it was -almost- gone. Wonder what the difference is that caused those opposite trends.

As far as adding CBC-1 in the primary and spunding - I don't know man. Seems like if you add CBC-1 a couple days into primary, you're adding a little bit of yeast compared to the giant population that's built up to ferment the bulk of the wort. Where cold crashing, transferring off the yeast, adding fermentables and maybe hops with CBC-1 would give the CBC-1 a fighting chance. I'm also just thinking out loud though.

I also forgot to mention I added two grams of CBC with my second dry hop around day three or four. Not sure if that had anything to do with it but I tell you I had no off flavors at kegging. But you’re right, crashing and transferring off of yeast would be ideal. On my homebrew scale, I can’t do it.

 

[melville]

I don't see how blending (separately fermented strains) makes sense on their scale. Some of their recent allotments (2000+ cases) seem to imply just simple batching into their (many) 240's. Also the percentages are so small on some aspects of the blend — the mix and match of different size FVs and then blending them seems like it would be a massive PITA for production.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I don't see how blending (separately fermented strains) makes sense on their scale. Some of their recent allotments (2000+ cases) seem to imply just simple batching into their (many) 240's. Also the percentages are so small on some aspects of the blend — the mix and match of different size FVs and then blending them seems like it would be a massive PITA for production.

I could be wrong, but wasn't there some discussion a few hundred (1000+?) posts ago about the smaller FVs that they have and what they are for? Just speculation of course, but it could be smaller batches they blend in. Assuming they brew the same overall batch size, they may be set up to do just that. They could be blending from one smaller ferment into many receiving vessels, which could be automated. It was a custom built brewery after all.

Fwiw, both my separate ferment batches are going now. When I smell the airlock on my large S-04/T-58 batch, I think, huh, ale fermentation. When I smell the one on the small WB-06 batch, between the flameout Citra and the intense bubblegum/banana, it takes me back to opening a fresh can of Doppelganger a couple of weeks ago. The blended beer will turn out to be about 20% WB-06 fermented and 80% S-04/T-58.

I mean, this is just an experiment so far, but man, smelling the airlocks, it's promising.

I have a plan in the works to closed CO2 transfer from a 1 gal jug. Will be reporting back...

 

[melville]

I could be wrong, but wasn't there some discussion a few hundred (1000+?) posts ago about the smaller FVs that they have and what they are for? Just speculation of course, but it could be smaller batches they blend in. Assuming they brew the same overall batch size, they may be set up to do just that. They could be blending from one smaller ferment into many receiving vessels, which could be automated. It was a custom built brewery after all.

Fwiw, both my separate ferment batches are going now. When I smell the airlock on my large S-04/T-58 batch, I think, huh, ale fermentation. When I smell the one on the small WB-06 batch, between the flameout Citra and the intense bubblegum/banana, it takes me back to opening a fresh can of Doppelganger a couple of weeks ago. The blended beer will turn out to be about 20% WB-06 fermented and 80% S-04/T-58.

I mean, this is just an experiment so far, but man, smelling the airlocks, it's promising.

I have a plan in the works to closed CO2 transfer from a 1 gal jug. Will be reporting back...

I do look forward to your findings, I just think for a brewery to tie up 3 FVs for every IPA, when it could be one... I'm skeptical. Just the additional cleaning time alone seems prohibitive, vs a defined ratio of dry yeast in one giant FV.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I do look forward to your findings, I just think for a brewery to tie up 3 FVs for every IPA, when it could be one... I'm skeptical. Just the additional cleaning time alone seems prohibitive, vs a defined ratio of dry yeast in one giant FV.

Sounds good, yeah, I'll report back at several stages.

Added the first dry hop this morning. About 39 hours in. I was going to throw them in last night but i felt like it wasn't ready. I think it was the right decision because it's more active now than last night (pitched cold at 59F, but rehydrated).

So here's an interesting thing. I stirred in the dry hops with a heat-sterilized stainless spoon. When I pulled the spoon out and reattached the airlock, the spoon dripped on my finger. What to do but taste?! I tasted it, and was immediately reminded of that background spice I've tasted in Sap, Green and Doppelganger. Now the question is, will that character survive through conditioning? Who knows. This was the large batch, 85% S-04 and 15% T-58.

 

[melville]

Now that my last @15% T-58 batch is carbed up, I do get a very subtle pepper in the finish. I don't get bubblegum, but I don't really get bubblegum from TH. I used C-40 for this batch and the sweetness is close. I'm not sure I prefer it to C-20 for my personal taste but the appearance is great, has the orangey glow and overall bright haze (vs murk) that Sap has.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I don't see how blending (separately fermented strains) makes sense on their scale. Some of their recent allotments (2000+ cases) seem to imply just simple batching into their (many) 240's. Also the percentages are so small on some aspects of the blend — the mix and match of different size FVs and then blending them seems like it would be a massive PITA for production.

It's confirmed that the Alchemist blends HT, so I don't see scale as being an argument against blending. Not saying that it confirms that TH does, just that the point doesn't hold much water.

As far as transferring without O2, my biggest recommendation is to ferment in kegs. If you can't do that, either transfer with gravity left or onto sugar (if you didn't carb in the fermenter, this is a great time to add the right amount of priming sugar to the serving vessel). If you're worried about O2 in the lines, instead of an airlock or blowoff tube, have the gas out of your fermenter go through whatever lines and vessels you want. The continuous purging from fermentation will be more efficient at reducing O2 than filling with CO2, out gassing, and repeating. For those super into reducing O2, it should be noted that bottled CO2 is typically impure.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

but I don't really get bubblegum from TH.

I guess I sort of perceive it more as some blend of bubblegum/banana. Really the only beer I noticed it in unprompted was Haze. With the Doppelganger I bought over the holidays, I didn't notice it right away. But when I took a hydrometer reading on it, after it was degassed and brought to measurement temp, I took the reading then cooled it back down to serving temp, then drank it. It was SUPER banana-bubblegum-y. From then on i was able to taste it in carbonated and serving temp Doppelganger as well.

I haven't noticed that character in their "standard" gravity IPAs, although my guess is it's there, but so subtle I probably just missed it, like i would have in the Doppelganger if I hadn't taken the gravity reading.

 

[TheHairyHop]

it's possible that it's flavors from hops as well. I get lots of bubblegum from Lone Pine's Tess, and I'm not entirely convinced that they are doing anything fancy with the yeast. The last batch of Tess dropped almost crystal clear, and it still had the bubblegum nose and taste

 

[melville]

It's confirmed that the Alchemist blends HT, so I don't see scale as being an argument against blending. Not saying that it confirms that TH does, just that the point doesn't hold much water.

But aren't they just brewing 1 beer at Waterbury — Heady Topper (and essentially 2 at Stowe)? So basically at capacity, filling every FV, and blending multiples in a bright before canning for a homogenous final product? That to me is quite a bit different than blending different strains at different volumes for many multiples of beers.