Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[Sbe2]

Basically, Tree House will be like the Sierra Nevada of NEIPA in a few years.

I think a little piece of me just died after reading this. It makes me a little sad.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Ok, here's my full report on my latest attempt, I'll try to include everything.

5 gal batch, 6 gal into primary
O.G. 1.072
F.G. 1.020 at packaging

Grist/Mash:
73% TF&S Golden Promise
12% Weyermann Carafoam
9% Avangard Munich Light
6% Briess C10

Rising temp mash - mash in at 152F, raise to 159F over 1 hour. Measured mash pH 5.79, cooled sample, raw measurement (this is the convention i always use for reporting pH). Decoction mash out to 176F.

Hops:
No bittering. In fact, no boil hops at all.
15 min flameout hop stand with 4 oz Mosaic and 4 oz Citra.
DH1: 2 oz Mosaic, 2 oz Citra, 2 oz El Dorado
DH2: 2 oz Mosaic

Yeast:
15 g S-04, 0.5 g WB-06, 1.0 g T-58. (91/3/6%). This comes out to about 72 g/hL, which is towards the top end of the Fermentis recommendation of 50-80 g/hL. I pitched that higher amount because of my somewhat higher O.G. but probably didn't need to.

Water:
Ca: 55 mg/L
Mg: 8 mg/L
Na: 5 mg/L
Cl: 201 mg/L
SO4: 96 mg/L
HCO3: 96 mg/L
K: 211 mg/L

Started from 100% local water and added gypsum and KCl to hit that. No acid additions.

Temp/schedule:
Pitched at 62F and started at a controlled 63F ambient. Added DH1 at 48 hours and raised ambient to 67F at that point. Added DH2 48 hours after that. Packaged on day 8.

Packaging:
Chose to bottle this one instead of kegging due holiday travel requirements. Primed with 28 oz gyle from this same batch, essentially vacuum canned on brew day. Also used 2 g of CBC-1. CO2 transferred from primary carboy to a purged keg and used CO2 to push to my bottle wand. Packaging was 14 days ago today.

Notes/lessons learned:
So first and foremost, there is no clove. Huzzah! Aroma is actually primarily dank/resinous/marijuana-like with supporting tropical fruit and some citrus. As it warms up I get more of the orange/tangerine thing. Flavor is dank and orange-y, with some of that subtle spice coming through as it warms, like Sap. Bitterness is high, likely because of the high bicarbonate/pH, despite the hop-stand-only kettle strategy. It is slightly sweeter and less tart than my last attempt, which is a step in the right direction IMO.

Overall I'm pretty pleased with this batch. It's a lot better than my first attempt. Next time I will make the following changes:
1) up the T-58 to 10% ish, maybe a little more.
2) maybe up the pitch temp slightly, still in the 60s though.
3) Decrease the Munich slightly and maybe replace some of the GP with 2 row or pils
4) adjust the mash pH to the low 5s and maybe acidify my sparge water as well.

 

[melville]

Ok, here's my full report on my latest attempt, I'll try to include everything.

5 gal batch, 6 gal into primary
O.G. 1.072
F.G. 1.020 at packaging

Grist/Mash:
73% TF&S Golden Promise
12% Weyermann Carafoam
9% Avangard Munich Light
6% Briess C10

Rising temp mash - mash in at 152F, raise to 159F over 1 hour. Measured mash pH 5.79, cooled sample, raw measurement (this is the convention i always use for reporting pH). Decoction mash out to 176F.

Hops:
No bittering. In fact, no boil hops at all
15 min flameout hop stand with 4 oz Mosaic and 4 oz Citra.
DH1: 2 oz Mosaic, 2 oz Citra, 2 oz El Dorado
DH2: 2 oz Mosaic

Yeast:
15 g S-04, 0.5 g WB-06, 1.0 g T-58. (91/3/6%). This comes out to about 72 g/hL, which is towards the top end of the Fermentis recommendation of 50-80 g/hL. I wanted to go higher because of my somewhat higher O.G. but probably didn't need to.

Water:
Ca: 55 mg/L
Mg: 8 mg/L
Na: 5 mg/L
Cl: 201 mg/L
HCO3: mg/L
K: 211 mg/L

Started from 100% local water and added gypsum and KCl to hit that. No acid additions.

Temp/schedule:
Pitched at 62F and started at a controlled 63F ambient. Added DH1 at 48 hours and raised ambient to 67F at that point. Added DH2 48 hours after that. Packaged on day 8.

Packaging:
Chose to bottle this one instead of kegging due holiday travel requirements. Primed with 28 oz gyle from this same batch, essentially vacuum canned on brew day. Also used 2 g of CBC-1. CO2 transferred from primary carboy to a purged keg and used CO2 to push to my bottle wand. Packaging was 14 days ago today.

Notes/lessons learned:
So first and foremost, there is no clove. Huzzah! Aroma is actually primarily dank/resinous/marijuana-like with supporting tropical fruit and some citrus. As is warms up I get more of the orange/tangerine thing. Flavor is dank and orange-y, with some of that subtle spice coming through as it warms, like Sap. Bitterness is high, likely because of the high bicarbonate/pH, despite the hop-stand-only kettle strategy. It is slightly sweeter and less tart than my last attempt, which is a step in the right direction IMO.

Overall I'm pretty pleased with this batch. It's a lot better than my first attempt. Next time I will make the following changes:
1) up the T-58 to 10% ish, maybe a little more.
2) maybe up the pitch temp slightly, still in the 60s though.
3) Decrease the Munich slightly and maybe replace some of the GP with 2 row or pils
4) adjust the mash pH to the low 5s and maybe acidify my sparge water as well.

View attachment 550967

View attachment 550968

Very nice. How was the ... mouthfeelz?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Very nice. How was the ... mouthfeelz?

Pretty thick and full bodied. I'm not sure I would describe it as fluffy. I might have to have comment on that again when I have another one later.

I'll probably make it to Tree House on Wedensday with some luck. Hopefully they'll have something canned that day that i can compare directly to. I feel like Alter Ego would be ideal to compare this batch to.

 

[Livinon2]

Second attempt with this yeast blend and I'm really beginning to like it. The flavor and mouthfeel is excellent despite this being the least amount of hops I've used in this style. Still not TH level mouthfeel but spelt didnt kick off any unwanted flavors!

6.5 Gal Batch OG 1.063 FG 1.009 Mash 154 F pH 5.2 Full Volume BIAB
80% Rahr 2-row
9.2% Weyermann Malted Spelt
6.2% Carafoam
4.6% Dingemans Aromatic

89.4 IBUS
45 min - 1 oz Simcoe
10 min - 1.5 oz Columbus, 1 oz Citra
5 min - 1.5 oz Columbus, 1 oz Citra

48 hr dry hop 2 oz citra, 1 oz amarillo
Day 10 keg hop 2 oz citra, 1 oz amarillo

88% SO4 8% T58 3% WB06/ 12.2 g total
Pitched 68 F and primary at 62 F for 4 days, ramped to 68 F for remainder

Water: Ca 11 | Mg 0 | Na 8 | SO4 26 | Cl 140 | K 150 / 12 g KCl, 1.5 g CaSO4, 4 g Citric Acid, 4.5 mL Lactic Acid

Overall, the aroma and flavor is excellent. The finish is smooth and soft, but it really falls short in the full/fluffy-ness and is too dry. I like the aromatic malt, but it's not doing much for the body or sweetness. As I've backed off on the dry hop the beers have become less hazy. I like the balance of kettle and dry hop flavors but cant get a haze that's full and lasting.

 

[melville]

Second attempt with this yeast blend and I'm really beginning to like it. The flavor and mouthfeel is excellent despite this being the least amount of hops I've used in this style. Still not TH level mouthfeel but spelt didnt kick off any unwanted flavors!

6.5 Gal Batch OG 1.063 FG 1.009 Mash 154 F pH 5.2 Full Volume BIAB
80% Rahr 2-row
9.2% Weyermann Malted Spelt
6.2% Carafoam
4.6% Dingemans Aromatic

89.4 IBUS
45 min - 1 oz Simcoe
10 min - 1.5 oz Columbus, 1 oz Citra
5 min - 1.5 oz Columbus, 1 oz Citra

48 hr dry hop 2 oz citra, 1 oz amarillo
Day 10 keg hop 2 oz citra, 1 oz amarillo

88% SO4 8% T58 3% WB06/ 12.2 g total
Pitched 68 F and primary at 62 F for 4 days, ramped to 68 F for remainder

Water: Ca 11 | Mg 0 | Na 8 | SO4 26 | Cl 140 | K 150 / 12 g KCl, 1.5 g CaSO4, 4 g Citric Acid, 4.5 mL Lactic Acid

Overall, the aroma and flavor is excellent. The finish is smooth and soft, but it really falls short in the full/fluffy-ness and is too dry. I like the aromatic malt, but it's not doing much for the body or sweetness. As I've backed off on the dry hop the beers have become less hazy. I like the balance of kettle and dry hop flavors but cant get a haze that's full and lasting.

Looks, sounds very nice.

 

[Korx]

Great thread, took me two days to read through the whole thing. I have only ever brewed a NEIPA with 1318 so I do not have much to contribute to this thread. Hopefully that will change.

I will note that a few tidbits of info Nate has shared over Twitter the last few days were that he only uses corn sugar in bright and that he uses kettle finings in his beers. I didn’t see this mentioned so I thought it was worth just adding.


https://twitter.com/treehousenate/status/945132899828936704

 

[melville]

Great thread, took me two days to read through the whole thing. I have only ever brewed a NEIPA with 1318 so I do not have much to contribute to this thread. Hopefully that will change.

I will note that a few tidbits of info Nate has shared over Twitter the last few days were that he only uses corn sugar in bright and that he uses kettle finings in his beers. I didn’t see this mentioned so I thought it was worth just adding.

That hurts my brain when thinking about carbonation, but — I think we can definitely rule out sugar in the mash.

 

[Korx]

Also, I failed to mention that I live about 10 minutes away from the brewery so I frequent there often. I stopped by today for some fresh doppelgänger and took some time to observe the brewing. It looked to me like they were adding dextrose monohydrate to the kettle. I watched them add two bags to the kettle which they are leaning against.

Now we have no idea which beer this is and I am no expert on this faciity or which kettle is which here but just reporting my observations whether the help or not I don’t know. Also added within 10 minutes was the two quart cans (hop extract?) and the content of Tupperware container. Here is a picture for reference.

 

[couchsending]

Added within 10 minutes of the dextrose? I would assume yeast nutrient or some finings of some sort. Interesting that they’re adding extract in what seems to be end of boil. I’m sure they can get extract of any variety they use and I know in really large systems the yield increase in extract vs. pellets can be substantial.

 

[Korx]

Added within 10 minutes of the dextrose? I would assume yeast nutrient or some finings of some sort. Interesting that they’re adding extract in what seems to be end of boil. I’m sure they can get extract of any variety they use and I know in really large systems the yield increase in extract vs. pellets can be substantial.

Like I said. I don’t know at which point of the boil this was. And I cannot confirm that these cans were extract it was just what it looked like to me. I don’t want to make any guarantees! The only thing I’m sure of was the 2 bags of dextrose being added. Again, we don’t know which beer was being brewed. Just trying to get any info out there.

 

[melville]

Like I said. I don’t know at which point of the boil this was. And I cannot confirm that these cans were extract it was just what it looked like to me. I don’t want to make any guarantees! The only thing I’m sure of was the 2 bags of dextrose being added. Again, we don’t know which beer was being brewed. Just trying to get any info out there.

If we assume dextrose=corn sugar for Nate, then this has to be Bright — based on that recent tweet. Also in that article/ad for extracts, Nate says he isn't afraid to use them later in the boil for flavor contributions.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Like I said. I don’t know at which point of the boil this was. And I cannot confirm that these cans were extract it was just what it looked like to me. I don’t want to make any guarantees! The only thing I’m sure of was the 2 bags of dextrose being added. Again, we don’t know which beer was being brewed. Just trying to get any info out there.

I stopped by at TH today as well, also saw the two bags get opened and prepared to be emptied into the kettle. Didn't actually seen them get dumped in. The bags said "Ingredion" on them, which I had never heard of.

I assumed at the time that it was some supplier or shipper of malt/hops that commercial guys use and isn't available to us homebrewers. Later today, I googled it. It seems like an international giant company that makes just ingredients for the food and beverage industry. They sell dextrose in liquid and solid, but they also sell something called "brewer's crystals" which is apparently a solid form "high maltose corn syrup." I've attached the spec sheet. Ingredion markets it as a cheaper alternative to malt extract to boost gravity. I have to admit, I saw this first and didn't realize Ingredion also sells dextrose, which caused a moment of never-meet-your-heroes disillusionment.

Of course, in my mind I can't be sure if it's one or the other.

However, I am having one of the Doppelgängers I picked up now. And it is phenomenal.

 

[couchsending]

Surly uses Brewers Crystals in Abrasive I believe, or at least used to. I would bet it’s pretty widely used. There are so many ingredients and options pro brewers have access to that are not widely available on the homebrew level. Enzymes and all sorts of Hop derivative products just to name a few.

 

[HopVision]

Brewers Crystals don't have much of a flavor. DME does. They are used as an alcohol booster or to soften the malt character of a beer without drying it out, as would be the case with dextrose or sucrose.

From a thread from 2015

 

[Korx]

I stopped by at TH today as well, also saw the two bags get opened and prepared to be emptied into the kettle. Didn't actually seen them get dumped in. The bags said "Ingredion" on them, which I had never heard of.

I assumed at the time that it was some supplier or shipper of malt/hops that commercial guys use and isn't available to us homebrewers. Later today, I googled it. It seems like an international giant company that makes just ingredients for the food and beverage industry. They sell dextrose in liquid and solid, but they also sell something called "brewer's crystals" which is apparently a solid form "high maltose corn syrup." I've attached the spec sheet. Ingredion markets it as a cheaper alternative to malt extract to boost gravity. I have to admit, I saw this first and didn't realize Ingredion also sells dextrose, which caused a moment of never-meet-your-heroes disillusionment.

Of course, in my mind I can't be sure if it's one or the other.

However, I am having one of the Doppelgängers I picked up now. And it is phenomenal.

Sounds like we must’ve just missed each other! From what I could make out on the bags they said “cerelose 020010” which you can sort of make out in this picture. What I could read in person was the smaller lettering beneath saying “dextrose monohydrate”. Just food for thought.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

So this stuff from Ingredion:
"CERELOSE® Dextrose 02001090 is a general purpose crystalline monohydrate dextrose suitable for most food, beverage, and industrial uses."

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Sounds like we must’ve just missed each other! From what I could make out on the bags they said “cerelose 020010” which you can sort of make out in this picture. What I could read in person was the smaller lettering beneath saying “dextrose monohydrate”. Just food for thought.

You know what, I looked again at the picture I took too and I can make out "elose 0200." You're absolutely right, it's dextrose. So funny that the dextrose thing had just come up recently on twitter. I wonder if they're going to have Bright canned 18-21 days from now!

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

So this stuff from Ingredion:
"CERELOSE[emoji768] Dextrose 02001090 is a general purpose crystalline monohydrate dextrose suitable for most food, beverage, and industrial uses."

Very cool, thanks for the link!

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Surly uses Brewers Crystals in Abrasive I believe, or at least used to. I would bet it’s pretty widely used. There are so many ingredients and options pro brewers have access to that are not widely available on the homebrew level. Enzymes and all sorts of Hop derivative products just to name a few.

Huh, I didn't know Surly used them. Never had Abrasive, but i am a big fan of Todd the Axe Man.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

So after having the Doppelgänger yesterday, I feel like they're used much more T-58 than the 6% I used on my last attempt. I got that spice flavor quite a bit, although I really didn't think pepper when I tasted it. But it was definitely there in both the aroma and the flavor. I have had saisons with a similar character, which maybe makes some sense. Couldn't taste any banana at all, although I do remember getting some banana in a Haze I had a few months ago. No clove.

@melville, I know you've been using like 10% T-58 and were thinking about bumping it up even more. Any idea what you're planning on bumping it up to? I've been considering maybe 10-15% for my next attempt.

 

[melville]

So after having the Doppelgänger yesterday, I feel like they're used much more T-58 than the 6% I used on my last attempt. I got that spice flavor quite a bit, although I really didn't think pepper when I tasted it. But it was definitely there in both the aroma and the flavor. I have had saisons with a similar character, which maybe makes some sense. Couldn't taste any banana at all, although I do remember getting some banana in a Haze I had a few months ago. No clove.

@melville, I know you've been using like 10% T-58 and were thinking about bumping it up even more. Any idea what you're planning on bumping it up to? I've been considering maybe 10-15% for my next attempt.

I'll probably go 13-15%. Of the three, T-58 is the fastest to take off from what I remember. IMO very noticeable in Green. Interesting: found some Mystic DDH Amperage which is NE(Belgian)IPA. Very similar spice quality but minus the subtlety, which sort of blows the whole thing. The spice you/I want is just above the "hmm..." level but below the "a-ha" level. It's a fine line.

 

[melville]

FYI: Variety specific hop extracts
http://www.farmhousebrewingsupply.com/ibu-injectors/

 

[Sawhorse-Josh]

Hi all, been following this thread for a while. fascinating!

any chance that this potassium based extract is responsible for the very high levels of K in alter ego? instead of KCl.

https://www.hopsteiner.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/SS_08_09_Pike.pdf

 

[melville]

Hi all, been following this thread for a while. fascinating!

any chance that this potassium based extract is responsible for the very high levels of K in alter ego? instead of KCl.

https://www.hopsteiner.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/SS_08_09_Pike.pdf

Interesting, but... if I recall it was the low ca *and* high K that had "us" thinking about KCl.

 

[melville]

Took my first full pour last night from the batch with KCl — very soft, very full, so I'm pretty happy there. I need to dial the crystal up a hair though in comparison and to my personal taste. This was primarily Vic Secret with a bit of Amarillo and Simcoe. (Split rahr 2-row with pearl, 20% carafoam, 10% flaked oats, 2.5 % c20, 5% Vienna) FG 1.015 | 7.1% abv | 75 IBU

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Hi all, been following this thread for a while. fascinating!

any chance that this potassium based extract is responsible for the very high levels of K in alter ego? instead of KCl.

https://www.hopsteiner.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/SS_08_09_Pike.pdf

Super interesting. Man, I tell ya, the kinds of stuff that's available now is so different from 5-10 years ago. Or maybe I was just oblivious back then haha.

Yeah, like @melville said, I think it was the combination of low Ca and high K that led down this KCl path. But... I've begun to wonder. The K in those BYO Alter Ego mineral results was so high, even using KCl additions for Cl. It's conceivable that it could be both KCl -and- the PIKE extracts. Just thinking out loud.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

View attachment 551456
Took my first full pour last night from the batch with KCl — very soft, very full, so I'm pretty happy there. I need to dial the crystal up a hair though in comparison and to my personal taste. This was primarily Vic Secret with a bit of Amarillo and Simcoe. (Split rahr 2-row with pearl, 20% carafoam, 10% flaked oats, 2.5 % c20, 5% Vienna) FG 1.015 | 7.1% abv | 75 IBU

Awesome! Looks great. Was this 88/2/10? How was the spice on this one?

 

[couchsending]

Hi all, been following this thread for a while. fascinating!

any chance that this potassium based extract is responsible for the very high levels of K in alter ego? instead of KCl.

https://www.hopsteiner.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/SS_08_09_Pike.pdf

Was on the Hopsteiner site last night and saw that. That extract seems more appropriate for late additions. What I've read about regular CO2 extract is that it's not that great for anything other than early additions but in the Mitch Steele IPA book the Hill Farmstead recipe for James calls for CO2 Centennial extract at 10???

 

[melville]

Awesome! Looks great. Was this 88/2/10? How was the spice on this one?

Thanks. Yep, 88/10/2. Comparatively I think it would need more, I can't really find it when trying.