Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

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marshallb said:
Update, I just tasted my beer. The mouthfeel is very soft - can only describe it as velvety.
It was burst carbed with 40lbs from Wednesday afternoon. I turned the gas off yesterday to let the head pressure dissolve into solution.
It has a distinct fruit tang like fresh citrus (not saison-like at all), but the Citra is the star of the show.
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Very nice! — so it all comes off as distinctly IPA?
 
What keeps coming up in the back of my mind (after sorting out these ratios): 1318 with a bit of 3638 (and a pinch of T-58?).
 
melville said:
What keeps coming up in the back of my mind (after sorting out these ratios): 1318 with a bit of 3638 (and a pinch of T-58?).
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I mixed 007 and 3638 once. I got some weird feedback like earthiness and saison-like. I've been wanting to try 1318 to see what comes out the other end.
 
melville said:
@couchsending — did you put any pressure on this keg when you closed it up to seal things up? I see conflicting anecdotes on priming in a keg — beer smith's calculator for example requires half the amount of sugar for a keg vs bottling, and I'm wondering how adding say 25psi might effect that.
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I purged and hit it with 10 PSI to seal it, think I might have topped it up to 10 on day 2 as it had dropped slightly but after that it was good to go.... not sure if you would want to go with high pressure or not. Not sure how that would affect yeast health?? I just tried to keep the lid sealed until normal carb took over.
 
gifty74 said:
Long and very active thread, but thought I might interject on natural carbing. I used this method on my last DIPA, and it was the best by far that I've produced (also shooting for that mecca DIPA, that I just have to have on tap all the time), and mostly because of how long the flavor & aroma has remained stable. I had a spunding fail the batch before in that I put the spunding valve on at 1.024'ish, and the yeast gave up at 1.020 and didn't finish out. The last one I let finish out completely in primary, and then put in keg, with dry hops, and added the beersmith amount of priming sugar (which yes, is a lot less than you would add for bottling). Worked awesome, just had to wait 2 weeks. However, I usually was waiting 1 week to get proper carbonation by the force method I had been using for the past 10 years. Natural carb made the most dramatic improvement in a beer than anything I've done in recent history. Uses up most o2 picked (can't say all) up during transfer, and adds complexity in that the bubbles are finer and just feel different. I have a Belg Golden Strong finishing up natural carb right now and will be tapping next week. Can't wait to confirm my method and I might be converted to doing this from here on out for the benefits it provides. I've never had a DIPA that was this drinkable and retained this much dry hop aroma as this last one has.

One note! Learn from my lesson, carbing up to 28-30psi at room temp (which gets your around 12 or so at 36F) will not stay in liquid if you try to open the keg! I relieved all the pressure I could, and it still would not release the lid to let me get dry hops out. I was finally able to free the lid and the beer came gushing out like a vulcano. Unreal. Lost 1/4 of the keg. Lesson is, cool to fridge temps before trying to open the keg.
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@gifty74 why did you remove the hops instead of transfering to another keg? I've never done a transfer of an already pressurized keg which I hear can create a lot of foam if not done slow and carefully. Might try this next round. Also what was your DH process? Any in primary during fermentation or just one big one while carbing? Bagged? Amount?
 
Great thread! Lots of ideas and opinions and a fun read!

Thought I would share my fermentation process, as it has greatly improved my IPAs. I ferment in a keg under pressure (12-20 PSI). I spund. I also cut my dip tubes and use a DIY screen on the dip tubes to prevent clogs. Works well most of the time. I have had a clog once or twice. Usually rig my CO2 tank with a liquid out and use CO2 to blow the clog away when this happens. Anyhow, I ferment for 2-3 days then open the keg and toss in my dry hop charge, free floating in the keg. Seal it back up, let it finish out fermentation. I then take a serving keg, fill completely with water so there is no O2 in the keg, seal it up. I push all the water out into a sink with CO2 pressure. I then put the keg with the beer on a table, higher than the serving keg, and push the beer from the fermenting keg to the serving keg with gentle pressure plus a little gravity/syphon. Beer is mostly carbonated, less of the aroma has been blown off with the CO2 escaping fermentation, and no oxygen has been added to stale the delicate IPA. This is even more important when I am doing experimental brews using my Zymatic, because with it I am brewing smaller batches with a lot of keg headspace! Cheers all and keep posting!
 
OT, but since we're a curious bunch — did anyone else notice the mad fermentationist mention this on Reddit:

"I didn't ask what the yeasts were, but JC said they are on their fourth strain since opening. IIRC it was harvesting issues on the new larger tanks that forced the most recent change for the new facility. "

Now we need to send @isomerization a Trillium to get to the bottom of this. (After Hill Farmstead of course)
 
melville said:
So... no biscuit, aromatic, honey, or light crystal in Julius:
(These dudes on Twitter seem familiar...)
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:mug:
Someone brought up a good point to me in another group. How can we be sure whomever is answering these tweets knows the ingredients? What are the chances Nate is on that account instead of his own?
 
I've been reading thru this thread and really excellent stuff I wish I was as advanced as half of you haha.

I had a discussion with a professional brewer after having a beer that had very similar flavor/hop characteristics to treehouse (I was not the first person to mention this to him). It was interesting to hear the yeast they use is wlp002. I didn't ask much more than that but it reaffirms to me it's more about the malt.
 
Small brewery down here in NC called Bond Brothers. Fantastic beer and brewery. They make a DIPA called Long Stride that's similar. I moved down from mass not too long ago, great place, great beers but man do I miss treehouse.
 
If anyone ever wanted a start at a Bright clone:

"Paste: Have any of the beers in the Curiosity series become regular offerings?

NL: Curiosity Twenty is Bright, with a few minor changes. I think that’s the only one."

Curiosity 20:
The intent with Twenty was to capture the essence of Mosaic as purely as possible, thus a dead simple malt bill of just 2-row, light crystal, and dextrin malt bill was paired with a super neutral ale yeast yielding a perfectly complementary base upon which Mosaic can shine!

Could be S-05 here assuming they Fermentis all of the things.

Curveball: They follow White Labs on Twitter. (File under: "reading way too much into things")
 
So just did a small batch of a American Pale trying out yeast blends - did 80% S-04, 20% WB-06, dry hopped it 48 hours into fermentation with 2 lb/bbl of Mosaic.

Definite Haze, very hoppy... and there is quite a bit of Banana character to this beer - moreso than I would like. I do not get any bubblegum from it. The hops are there but they are definitely battling for aroma with the yeast. Flavor is very enjoyable, just more estery than I would expect for only 20% WB-06. I pitched and fermented at 66 for 72 hours then let it carry itself up to 70 to finish out.
 
Got a response from Lallemand on some questions on CBC-1 and refermentation times. Basically regardless of how much carb you think you have in solution pitch their recommended amount. The important variable is your priming sugar. For faster refermentation times a temp of 75-80F should finish in under a week for normal strength ales.
 
Hi Guys, I’m new to the forum. Thank you for all this great information! I’ve been brewing on and off for about ten years now and have been reading here for the past couple years. Finally decided to join and help with this experimentation. I’ve been trying to replicate the Treehouse "flavor" for the past year. The closest I’ve gotten has been Nates “Hoppy Things” recipe used with Conan yeast and a couple tweaks. The beer was great!

Last week I brewed that recipe again, however, I took your guys advice/experimentation and used the same yeast ratio @marshallb used - 1g wb-06 for 24 hours, then 11g of s-04 and 1g of t-58 until finished for a 5 gal batch. There is no way for me to control temperature yet so I fermented around 68-72 degrees. On day four the beer looked great hazy/juicy in the carboy, but then started to clear. The night before kegging, I cold crashed for about 12 hours in ice water and the beer got pretty damn clear. I kegged yesterday morning and forced carbed just to try a bit and as @melville pointed out, the beer is dry. There’s not much going on in the flavor/nose department as well and there is barely any haziness. Not sure if my temperatures caused the dry and clear beer. Drinks more like a west coast IPA. It’s pretty good, just not Treehouse –y. Any idea why the haze dropped out so much? Maybe mash temps were too high? Yeast ratio and ferment temp off? I’ll give it a week in the keg and report back. Back to the drawing board!
 
NJGeorge said:
Hi Guys, I’m new to the forum. Thank you for all this great information! I’ve been brewing on and off for about ten years now and have been reading here for the past couple years. Finally decided to join and help with this experimentation. I’ve been trying to replicate the Treehouse "flavor" for the past year. The closest I’ve gotten has been Nates “Hoppy Things” recipe used with Conan yeast and a couple tweaks. The beer was great!

Last week I brewed that recipe again, however, I took your guys advice/experimentation and used the same yeast ratio @marshallb used - 1g wb-06 for 24 hours, then 11g of s-04 and 1g of t-58 until finished for a 5 gal batch. There is no way for me to control temperature yet so I fermented around 68-72 degrees. On day four the beer looked great hazy/juicy in the carboy, but then started to clear. The night before kegging, I cold crashed for about 12 hours in ice water and the beer got pretty damn clear. I kegged yesterday morning and forced carbed just to try a bit and as @melville pointed out, the beer is dry. There’s not much going on in the flavor/nose department as well and there is barely any haziness. Not sure if my temperatures caused the dry and clear beer. Drinks more like a west coast IPA. It’s pretty good, just not Treehouse –y. Any idea why the haze dropped out so much? Maybe mash temps were too high? Yeast ratio and ferment temp off? I’ll give it a week in the keg and report back. Back to the drawing board!
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I just had this happen with my 4th gen Conan on a SAP clone attempt. Mashed at 154f (MO, 2 row, C60), whirlpooled 6 oz of Chinook and Simcoe, pitched at 68f, Day 2 DH with another 6 oz. Bottled (I know...) Day 6. Started drinking Day 14. Its as clear as a West Coast. I fermented at 66 for the first two days and let it rise to 70 for another two then finished it at 72 for the final two.

I bottled at 1.010, which I know is very dry, but when testing from the bottle I got 1.007. I think there may be another yeast in play??? I wanted to continue fermentation in the bottle to scavenge O2. Hopefully the beer is just young and I get more pine on the nose, but I know now that I am going to have to start kegging.
 
Sbe2 said:
I just had this happen with my 4th gen Conan on a SAP clone attempt. Mashed at 154f (MO, 2 row, C60), whirlpooled 6 oz of Chinook and Simcoe, pitched at 68f, Day 2 DH with another 6 oz. Bottled (I know...) Day 6. Started drinking Day 14. Its as clear as a West Coast. I fermented at 66 for the first two days and let it rise to 70 for another two then finished it at 72 for the final two.

I bottled at 1.010, which I know is very dry, but when testing from the bottle I got 1.007. I think there may be another yeast in play??? I wanted to continue fermentation in the bottle to scavenge O2. Hopefully the beer is just young and I get more pine on the nose, but I know now that I am going to have to start kegging.
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I would think that mashing at 154 and getting 1.007 would be rather odd for Conan especially if you have temp control. How much yeast did you pitch?
 
I dry hopped 3oz right when fermentation slowed which it went so fast that I might have hopped too late. And then dry hopped 3oz once more two days after that.
 
There's a big difference in turbidity from yeast/protiens and from polyphenols. My beers are always much prettier with that glowy orange appearance once the yeast flocks out. As well, you don't need massive proteins to create haze. Hop acids and polyphenols will cloud a beer without the heavier proteins, of which I believe will pull your hops out of suspension anyway. So a beer without those heavier particles is quite a bit more stable.
 
couchsending said:
I would think that mashing at 154 and getting 1.007 would be rather odd for Conan especially if you have temp control. How much yeast did you pitch?
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That's what I thought, a little over 1L. I did build it up, I haven't used Conan since February.

You'll probably ask, made a 1L starter on stir plate for 36hrs, cold crashed decanted. Made a 1.5L starter, 36 hrs... Filled a sanitized pint jar and capped, pitched the rest.
 
marshallb said:
There's a big difference in turbidity from yeast/protiens and from polyphenols. My beers are always much prettier with that glowy orange appearance once the yeast flocks out. As well, you don't need massive proteins to create haze. Hop acids and polyphenols will cloud a beer without the heavier proteins, of which I believe will pull your hops out of suspension anyway. So a beer without those heavier particles is quite a bit more stable.
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With my 6 oz DH, the yeast flocking out may have "grabbed" the polyphenols and hop acids resulting in a clear beer? Using 1318 and the same process I get haze. I am just curious how I could get a clear beer with 12 oz of hops after flame out, following the NEIPA hop schedule:confused:
 
Sbe2 said:
With my 6 oz DH, the yeast flocking out may have "grabbed" the polyphenols and hop acids resulting in a clear beer? Using 1318 and the same process I get haze. I am just curious how I could get a clear beer with 12 oz of hops after flame out, following the NEIPA hop schedule:confused:
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What was your OG from a 154* mash?
 
I'm at day 10 on my second effort. Dropping the temp today and then transferring to a keg with:

  • loose pellets
  • CBC-1
  • sugar
Going to condition at 72F for a week or so and see what happens.
(I have a filter for the dip tube, so for this effort, will just see how it serves without transferring to a "clean" keg)
 
melville said:
I'm at day 10 on my second effort. Dropping the temp today and then transferring to a keg with:

  • loose pellets
  • CBC-1
  • sugar
Going to condition at 72F for a week or so and see what happens.
(I have a filter for the dip tube, so for this effort, will just see how it serves without transferring to a "clean" keg)
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Did you get a gravity reading before going into the keg?
 
isomerization said:
Did you get a gravity reading before going into the keg?
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Gravity was 1.011. I mashed at 156F. So that was ... disappointing. Sample was devoid of anything strange, I notice only an apple tartness behind the Citra & Mosaic (and Simcoe). So next attempt I'll likely bump to a 80:14:6 ratio depending on how this shakes out. Not sure what to do about getting my gravity up.

Edit: The sample I pulled was from 3 days ago — beer had been fermenting at 65F. Past 2 days has been resting at about 75F (in case that "apple" is acetaldehyde hopefully it clears).
 
You sure that apple tartness isn't acetaldehyde? It was really quite strong in the beer I made with S-04. Even after bumping the temps and letting it rest after ferment was over it was quite strong. I left it for three more days and it dissipated but was still there in the background ever so slightly. I thought it was because in attempt to dump some Trub from my conical I ended up getting a bunch of yeast so there wasn't enough left to effectively clean up after itself?? It was also my first time using dry yeast. I rehydrated it as directed so I'm not 100% sure what happened as it was new territory for me.
 
As an anecdote, I made a small starter of 58 to see what the flavor profile is. I'm fermenting uncontrolled in the mid 70s and I got mild Belgian spice but no bubblegum. I pitched 95:5 ratio of 04:58. I'll report when I'm done
 
couchsending said:
You sure that apple tartness isn't acetaldehyde? It was really quite strong in the beer I made with S-04. Even after bumping the temps and letting it rest after ferment was over it was quite strong. I left it for three more days and it dissipated but was still there in the background ever so slightly. I thought it was because in attempt to dump some Trub from my conical I ended up getting a bunch of yeast so there wasn't enough left to effectively clean up after itself?? It was also my first time using dry yeast. I rehydrated it as directed so I'm not 100% sure what happened as it was new territory for me.
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It could be, never encountered it before. I did have a vigorous fermentation, didn't pull that sample till day 7 and no bubbles for two days, and have since let it rest for a couple of more days at a higher temp. When I transfer, will try to get another pull and see how things are now.
 
I mentioned this awhile back, but it likely got buried quickly with the rampant posting. I have clean isolates of all 4 yeasts discussed in this thread. If anyone would like them, I am happy to send them out (I use 1.5 ml cryo-vials that have plenty of yeast for starters up to 1.5 L in size). It is possible (even highly likely?) that what TH is using isn't 100% the same as the commercially available Fermentis strains and that's assuming the genetic IDs are perfect. Keep in mind that, by DNA fingerprinting, WY1968 and Conan (TYB) had almost identical DNA banding patterns (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=8032549&postcount=165).

Would prefer a trade of some kind, but can also do it for even money on shipping.
 
isomerization said:
I mentioned this awhile back, but it likely got buried quickly with the rampant posting. I have clean isolates of all 4 yeasts discussed in this thread. If anyone would like them, I am happy to send them out (I use 1.5 ml cryo-vials that have plenty of yeast for starters up to 1.5 L in size). It is possible (even highly likely?) that what TH is using isn't 100% the same as the commercially available Fermentis strains and that's assuming the genetic IDs are perfect. Keep in mind that, by DNA fingerprinting, WY1968 and Conan (TYB) had almost identical DNA banding patterns (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=8032549&postcount=165).

Would prefer a trade of some kind, but can also do it for even money on shipping.
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I would do this in a heartbeat if I thought I could work out the ratios as precisely in liquid as I can with the dry. Time for a Patreon! Send a beer and a tip and you do a fingerprint and send an isolate back.
 
BTW, are there higher res versions of the fingerprints you've done so far?

Also when I pull them into photoshop, I can make a case that the Double Shot isolate looks sort of like the Julius isolate which turned out to be T-58. That of course makes no sense unless, they use a blend in DS or they use T-58 for conditioning with CBC-1/F2 (which granted, also makes no sense).
 
melville said:
I would do this in a heartbeat if I thought I could work out the ratios as precisely in liquid as I can with the dry. Time for a Patreon! Send a beer and a tip and you do a fingerprint and send an isolate back.
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My plan is to use the volume of the starter to control the ratios. This assumes each yeast reaches similar levels of saturation/ml (not sure how accurate that assumption is?). So for my clone attempt, I'm using 600 ml S-04, 200 ml T-58 and 200 ml WB-06. I'm hoping to compare against the same recipe with just 1318, as that's my goto NE IPA yeast.

melville said:
BTW, are there higher res versions of the fingerprints you've done so far?

Also when I pull them into photoshop, I can make a case that the Double Shot isolate looks sort of like the Julius isolate which turned out to be T-58. That of course makes no sense unless, they use a blend in DS or they use T-58 for conditioning with CBC-1/F2 (which granted, also makes no sense).
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I have high res .TIFF files I can send you if you PM an email address. I need to revisit the Double Shot isolates, since I only looked at a single colony before, but you're right there are definitely some similar bands there.
 
Not sure if anyone has ever noticed this, but I get a coffee bean like note from every treehouse beer I've had. Is this from the malt used? Buiscut maybe? I've never used it before so I wouldn't know. Anyone else ever taste/smell what I'm referring to?
 

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