Wouldn't it be hilarious if all they actually used was London III?
Cheers!
Cheers!
Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?
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Thoroughly appreciate everyone's efforts on this.
Trying to put everything that people have had success with all together, as well as a lot of other things I've read, as my countless efforts have varied dramatically from getting very close (one time) to not even remotely close, there's just no easy way to control the yeasts. Every batch has been so different. The only logical solution is to take that WB06 variable out, and blend.
My game plan is to LODO mash at 154F, 5.2pH (2-Row, Carafoam, and a touch of Vienna), (maybe do a step mash as I was very impressed with that fluffy head that someone posted a while ago) mash out 168F, add l-leucine, reduce pH to under 5 after boil (may help stress the yeast, as well as not get that twang from S04 that someone mentioned was a good solution). I also just listened to a podcast how a lower pH after the mash smooths and subdues the hop bitterness and helps create a softer rounder more crushable result. So going to try that. Then water treatment using KCL to increase the mouthfeel, 150-50 ratio. Aiming for FG of 1.016, and 4.5pH after dry hop. 40% of the hops will be whirlpooled at 170F for 20min (50% Apollo and 50% Citra). Then quickly cooled via counter flow chiller through a hop rocket with a little more (10%) Citra hops.
I'll do a semi split batch, main batch will be a pack of S04, and 0.5g of T-58 at 72F (no oxygenation, no trub), then gradually drop to 64F after I wake up the next morning (1 degree every 2 hours). The second batch will be 0.75-1 gallon in a 3.5gal keg (+ blowoff), with WB06, fermented warm (72F) to bring out as much bubble gum juicy fruit esters as I can.
I'll pitch the WB06 into the mini keg once the main batch is close to FG. Krausen the WB06 batch, Im assuming it will take 1-2 days, which will also be at the peak of ester formation, transfer into the main batch, along with dry hops (Citra T-45s and T-90s), some sugar, and 2g of CBC-1 (hopefully kill the WB06). Before I add the WB06 batch I'll do a quick 1 day crash of the main batch, harvest+dump the S04 yeast out, then raise it to 68ish before adding the mini batch, DH + CBC.
Purge when I drop the hops, and again 30min later once the pellets' have saturated and released any trapped O2. Cap my unitank to naturally carbonate, slow rise it to 70 after a day. Rouse the hops once at 24hrs, then dump the dropped hops 24-48 hours later after taste testing. Let it carbonate / condition for a week before cold crashing. May DH in the keg (more Citra and or Mosaic/Simcoe depending on taste tests, we'll see how it goes.
Does anyone see any blatantly flawed thoughts, or feedback on any of these things that have definitely not worked for them that I should consider tweaking?
Trying to put everything that people have had success with all together, as well as a lot of other things I've read, as my countless efforts have varied dramatically from getting very close (one time) to not even remotely close, there's just no easy way to control the yeasts. Every batch has been so different. The only logical solution is to take that WB06 variable out, and blend.
My game plan is to LODO mash at 154F, 5.2pH (2-Row, Carafoam, and a touch of Vienna), (maybe do a step mash as I was very impressed with that fluffy head that someone posted a while ago) mash out 168F, add l-leucine, reduce pH to under 5 after boil (may help stress the yeast, as well as not get that twang from S04 that someone mentioned was a good solution). I also just listened to a podcast how a lower pH after the mash smooths and subdues the hop bitterness and helps create a softer rounder more crushable result. So going to try that. Then water treatment using KCL to increase the mouthfeel, 150-50 ratio. Aiming for FG of 1.016, and 4.5pH after dry hop. 40% of the hops will be whirlpooled at 170F for 20min (50% Apollo and 50% Citra). Then quickly cooled via counter flow chiller through a hop rocket with a little more (10%) Citra hops.
I'll do a semi split batch, main batch will be a pack of S04, and 0.5g of T-58 at 72F (no oxygenation, no trub), then gradually drop to 64F after I wake up the next morning (1 degree every 2 hours). The second batch will be 0.75-1 gallon in a 3.5gal keg (+ blowoff), with WB06, fermented warm (72F) to bring out as much bubble gum juicy fruit esters as I can.
I'll pitch the WB06 into the mini keg once the main batch is close to FG. Krausen the WB06 batch, Im assuming it will take 1-2 days, which will also be at the peak of ester formation, transfer into the main batch, along with dry hops (Citra T-45s and T-90s), some sugar, and 2g of CBC-1 (hopefully kill the WB06). Before I add the WB06 batch I'll do a quick 1 day crash of the main batch, harvest+dump the S04 yeast out, then raise it to 68ish before adding the mini batch, DH + CBC.
Purge when I drop the hops, and again 30min later once the pellets' have saturated and released any trapped O2. Cap my unitank to naturally carbonate, slow rise it to 70 after a day. Rouse the hops once at 24hrs, then dump the dropped hops 24-48 hours later after taste testing. Let it carbonate / condition for a week before cold crashing. May DH in the keg (more Citra and or Mosaic/Simcoe depending on taste tests, we'll see how it goes.
Does anyone see any blatantly flawed thoughts, or feedback on any of these things that have definitely not worked for them that I should consider tweaking?
Clyde McCoy
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Looks like anhydrous calcium chloride (bottom layer) and gypsum (top layer)
Total volume is ~2 liters
Maybe 75% anhydrous calcium chloride and 25% gypsum
1.5 liters anhydrous calcium chloride * 2.15 grams per cubic centimeter (g/cm³) = 3,225 grams
0.5 liters gypsum * 2.3 grams per cubic centimeter (g/cm³) = 1,150 grams
60 bbl batch size + sparge volume ~2,400 gallons
SO4: ~70
Cl: ~170
Ca: ~125
If ~2/3 anhydrous calcium chloride (2,867 grams) and ~1/3 gypsum (1,533 grams)
SO4: ~94
Cl: ~152
Ca: ~124
Take it with a grain of salt, don't @me
Clyde McCoy
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Was drinking some TH last week
Azure
JJJuiceee Machine
End of the Rainbow
Haze
Julius
King JJJuliusss
All were solid, no hop burn or off-flavors
JJJuiceee Machine had a cool fruit salad flavor profile (End of the Rainbow somewhat similar)
Haze was a bit chalky/salty on the finish
Julius great tasted, like mangoes and oranges, actually preferred it to King JJJuliusss (a nice orange-bomb)
Great beers, didn't do any yeast PCRs this time
Azure
JJJuiceee Machine
End of the Rainbow
Haze
Julius
King JJJuliusss
All were solid, no hop burn or off-flavors
JJJuiceee Machine had a cool fruit salad flavor profile (End of the Rainbow somewhat similar)
Haze was a bit chalky/salty on the finish
Julius great tasted, like mangoes and oranges, actually preferred it to King JJJuliusss (a nice orange-bomb)
Great beers, didn't do any yeast PCRs this time
Jesse Runowski
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Please share the outcome of this experiment! I've been toying with something similar, in fact just bought a packet of each of the three yeasts. I wish I had some feedback on your setup but I don't. Looks great to me, would love to see how this turns out and what works and things you would change.
beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
We "don't normally use" flaked oats. Yet in the other video's at the grain storage there where bags of flaked oats
Nicely spotted and converted.
I'll take it with a grain of mineral salt
So that would be for Greenish a Pale Ale, they would probably go lighter on the bigger beers.
Clyde McCoy
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Funny that you mention this -
The left is Carafoam, the right 2-Row
Might want to try >25% Carafoam on a future batch
Funny thing is, I don’t even like their house flavor anymore. It muddles up any hop combo they do. Can’t distinguish most of their stuff.Wouldn't it be hilarious if all they actually used was London III?
Cheers!
And the list to choose from is getting ridiculous. It’s like it’s all the same beer, but different names.
Give me HF anyday
beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
107 pages in, I can't remember. was la3 ever analysed and compared?Wouldn't it be hilarious if all they actually used was London III?
Cheers!
Edit*
I searched but didnt find any analysis of LA3
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I have the exact same problem. They all taste the same just some have more alcohol taste. Maybe my palate isn’t refined enough? I actually prefer their pale ales these days, and they cost less!
Probably 4 to 5 grams of ascorbic acid. Everyone knows that s#!t is a game changer.
troxerX
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Agreed, using the equipment video as reference it seems that anything around 1-3% (i.e Crystal 60 example) is done by hand, anything above that but below 30% is probably supersacks and anything in the 60% and above is based on grain silo.
As for the secret sauce it looks like a soup of white powders with probably some ascorbic acid, calcium chloride, calcium sulfate and magnesium chloride or magnesium sulfate.. the interesting observation is that it was not added to the water during prep but directly on top of the grain itself after strike. Probably emulating what’s done with big commercial batches.
I’ve also noticed that their beers last a long time in cans better than most IPAs out there so + to any stabilizing or oxygen scavenging chemistry into that sauce.. will not be surprised if some of that sauce (or a variation of that sauce) is added during brightening or at the time of packaging as well.
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beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
Nate mentions in the video they had to buy supersacks for a while when there where stocking problems.
Just a few of my thoughts and guesses below.
Nothing special about the water profile looks like a 2:1 ratio of chloride to sulfate. If anything it looks like less than I would expect to see in a batch that size. Especially if the are using 100% RO water.
The secret sauce he mentions i believe is pickling lime to bring the PH up probably to 5.6. I do believe they treat their IPAs like stouts in that sense.
Higher PH into fermenter would keep S-04 from getting its sour twang if they are in fact using s-04.
Also, worth noting a higher PH in the boil will create more melanoids (producing a darker color without crystal malt) potentially higher PH in Julius than other beers
Lastly, I believe the carafoam is being used in a much greater amount probably in the 20-25% range as is evident on their foam stability and glass lacing.
Happy to see this thread is still alive.
Nothing special about the water profile looks like a 2:1 ratio of chloride to sulfate. If anything it looks like less than I would expect to see in a batch that size. Especially if the are using 100% RO water.
The secret sauce he mentions i believe is pickling lime to bring the PH up probably to 5.6. I do believe they treat their IPAs like stouts in that sense.
Higher PH into fermenter would keep S-04 from getting its sour twang if they are in fact using s-04.
Also, worth noting a higher PH in the boil will create more melanoids (producing a darker color without crystal malt) potentially higher PH in Julius than other beers
Lastly, I believe the carafoam is being used in a much greater amount probably in the 20-25% range as is evident on their foam stability and glass lacing.
Happy to see this thread is still alive.
No I believe he said at some point in those videos that they dry hop the same way they did when they were homebrewing, this is just a scaled up version of how they homebrewed, they take a massive hit on efficiency, utilization and loss, but he doesn't care about that stuff, its all about providing the best product and outcome as possible. That's what impresses me about Nate, money doesnt matter, its all about the absolute best quality without compromise.
Ok, I really do appreciate TH beers and all, but their consumer base probably does care about money, and Julius is already near $100 a case with MA sales taxes...
Cheers!
Mousetrapbrewery
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I mean 15 bucks a 4 pack is cheap. So many places I try and end up dumping the beer and wasting money. I can confidently say I have never dumped a TH beer. They are the most consistent beers out there and their price point is spot on or lower than any other brewery. To me 91 bucks for a case of Julius is below average for cost of craft beer.
I appreciate some folks are high-end beer drinkers who can scoff at TH pricing, but people can buy a case of very good to excellent hazies for half that price elsewhere. If corporate growth matters their pricing isn't going to help much...
Cheers!
Cheers!
Mousetrapbrewery
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Half the price? Where are you getting hazies for $7.50 a 4 pack? Serious question
Prime example: $10 a six pack/$20 a 12 pack for Fiddlehead here, a very good hazy. And there are others...
Cheers!
Cheers!
Mousetrapbrewery
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Fiddlehead is hit or miss. Not worth it to me. And you buy it from a gas station or packie you’re running the risk of when it was bottled/can and then leaving it out in the warm store for months.
I mean this is a yeast thread not a price on 4 pack thread. But to the other guys point Nate does a good job keeping up quality and not distributing and running the risk of the distributor keeping the beers too long, storing improperly and not cleaning keg lines properly. Prime example with Fiddlehead, I had it at one bar and it was awesome, had it at another bar and it was trash. Good thing that wasn’t my first time having it because I’d probably never have it again. Sometimes breweries sacrifice quality for profits and distributing to bars/packies that don’t keep things proper hurts their brand in the long run IMO. TH doesn’t do that.
Nevermind, no point in continuing here...
OP
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isomerization
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I tested 1318 at one point, you can see on page 2 I think that it’s labeled (pic is gone). Was not a match.
I will try to dig up the PCR pictures and repost this evening, should be on an old laptop.
troxerX
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@isomerization +1 I remember spending some time looking at the PCRs and absolutely there was no match for 1318. Will be great to refresh the pictures again (thanks!).
We’ve seen few times in the past that TH has mentioned part of their process is all about stressing their yeast (one I recall was their collab with Toppling G where it was mentioned but don’t know where to find now), reason I say this - because I’m not sure if I’m seeing any of that here in these videos unless stressing for them means not aerating the wort (not sure if they aerated that homebrew batch) and maybe fermenting cold like around 60F?, is there any other way to stress yeast that we are missing here?.
Here is the secret sauce close and personal based on their latest video today (30 mins ago), the sauce seems to be developing its own personality now LOL.
We’ve seen few times in the past that TH has mentioned part of their process is all about stressing their yeast (one I recall was their collab with Toppling G where it was mentioned but don’t know where to find now), reason I say this - because I’m not sure if I’m seeing any of that here in these videos unless stressing for them means not aerating the wort (not sure if they aerated that homebrew batch) and maybe fermenting cold like around 60F?, is there any other way to stress yeast that we are missing here?.
Here is the secret sauce close and personal based on their latest video today (30 mins ago), the sauce seems to be developing its own personality now LOL.
Attachments
Clyde McCoy
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anhydrous calcium chloride and gypsum...top secret
If one was to take the recipe from the video to try and brew that beer...is there some general knowledge of what Treehouse targets for a water profile? (Sorry if that has been discussed already in this thread). Sulfate heavy? Chloride heavy? Balanced? What about the level of Calcium or Sodium?
I pulled the following values from this article: Ward Labs Mineral Analysis of Tree House Julius (Again). Do you think Tree House actually pushes Sulfate up near 100? In order for me to hit those levels of Chloride and Sulfate, I would have to push my Calcium up to ~150 ppm (using Gypsum and Calcium Chloride additions).
Calcium, Ca ppm 89 - 100
Magnesium, Mg ppm 4 - 6
Sodium, Na ppm 10 - 11
Chloride, Cl ppm 175 - 220
Sulfate, SO4 ppm 100 - 134
Would the be a fairly decent water profile? (which I can get with 7g Calcium Chloride and 2g Gypsum)
Ca: 111.4 ppm, Mg: 7.0 ppm, Na: 25.0 ppm, SO4: 68.3 ppm, Cl: 155.8 ppm
KcL could be a solution, thats what I'm going to try on my upcoming batch rather than CaCL. Ive seen various levels of success on this thread, some love it, some not so much, Im looking forward to trying it for myself.
Clyde McCoy
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A few posts back I made some guesstimates for Greenish, your profile looks close to me
OP
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isomerization
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Here is what I could find, first two images have colonies from dregs of TH cans (Doppelganger and Julius) streaked out and then individual PCR analysed. Last image is all of the different commercial yeasts I tested, with my best attempt to scale separate agarose gels together. Last image is a better analysis of CBC-1 against "red square colony".
View attachment Slide1.jpg
View attachment Slide2.jpg
View attachment Slide3.jpg
Legend:
A - WLP644
B - F1
C - F1/C4
D - Conan (TYB)
E - S-33 (Fermentis)
F - WB-06 (Fermentis)
G - K-97 (Fermentis)
H - Windsor (Danstar)
I - London ESB (Danstar)
J - WY1056
K - WY1272
L - WY1332
M - WY1318
N - WY1968
O - WLP670 (saison isolate)
P - WLP802
Q - TH Julius isolate (later determined to be T-58 like, green circle)
R - Vermont Ale (TYB; duplicate with D)
S - WY3944
T - TH Double Shot isolate (haven't gone back to see if this was the only strain...)
U - S-04 (Fermentis)
V - S-05 (Fermentis)
W - S-23 (Fermentis)
X - Munich (Danstar)
Y - W-34/70 (Fermentis)
Z - T-58 (Fermentis)
AA - CBC-1 (Lallemand)
BB - BE-256 (Fermentis)
View attachment Slide4.jpg
View attachment Slide1.jpg
View attachment Slide2.jpg
View attachment Slide3.jpg
Legend:
A - WLP644
B - F1
C - F1/C4
D - Conan (TYB)
E - S-33 (Fermentis)
F - WB-06 (Fermentis)
G - K-97 (Fermentis)
H - Windsor (Danstar)
I - London ESB (Danstar)
J - WY1056
K - WY1272
L - WY1332
M - WY1318
N - WY1968
O - WLP670 (saison isolate)
P - WLP802
Q - TH Julius isolate (later determined to be T-58 like, green circle)
R - Vermont Ale (TYB; duplicate with D)
S - WY3944
T - TH Double Shot isolate (haven't gone back to see if this was the only strain...)
U - S-04 (Fermentis)
V - S-05 (Fermentis)
W - S-23 (Fermentis)
X - Munich (Danstar)
Y - W-34/70 (Fermentis)
Z - T-58 (Fermentis)
AA - CBC-1 (Lallemand)
BB - BE-256 (Fermentis)
View attachment Slide4.jpg
OP
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isomerization
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Hmm, thought the images would imbed in the post, but the links at least are high res, hopefully not too annoying to look at.
So found an article after doing some deeper research into KCL, before my next attempt. There has to be more to Nates "Secret Sauce" than the typical additions. Based on their high potassium levels from the Ward Labs analysis, maybe they are in fact using KCL, rather than NaCL or CaCL, to keep their sodium and calcium low but keep the body, flavor and hop character high. Possibly that excess of potassium is also stressing the yeast. So under pitching, Low O2, and high K, might have the added stress benefit to their crazy esters.
Would that slightly sour flavor also possibly be what people are picking up from what they think is the S04, or maybe its just amplifying the "tartness" of that yeast?
LumberZach
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That Ward Labs analysis is post fermentation and from a finished beer. Mineral levels change drastically during fermentation. You can't predict what the mash water profile is from the analysis of a finished beer.
I get that, but their potassium levels seem higher than others, to me that means KCL vs what others might be doing. That's what we are trying to figure out here, its what and how are they doing it differently
Clyde McCoy
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Russian River and Trillium beers have been tested at comparable potassium levels, it's unlikely those breweries are using KCl
Even if TH is using KCl - which I doubt - the modest quantity of salts in their homebrew recipe and the real Greenish batch suggests they aren't pushing minerals levels
It's probably coming from the grist and/or insane DH quantities
Not suggesting you don't try it yourself...
beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
From which book is that?
I've tested alot with Kcl, didnt find any improvement. In higher quantities it leaves a harsh bitter on the end of the pallet.
So just drinking King Julius canned 02-23 and Im completely disappointed, it doesn't have that bubblegum juicy fruit character that I'm use to. The hops are more predominant and green, and there's none of that yeast character that I was hugely anticipating and ready to think deep and hard about. I'm still convinced they blend but this one has me scratching my head, did the CBC not take out the WB06 and T58 like it usually does and it allowed that to clean up the esters, Ive never had a TH that tastes so unlike TH and more like every other NEIPA. I'm completely mystified.
It was online, I'll have to find it again, I was just researching KCL and found that article
