Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[beervoid]

Agreed, or they might be even using a entirely different yeast all together and not the ones were using. I haven't brewed in a while but Ill give it a shot soon and play around more with different yeast. I wonder if they are even naturally carbonating anymore with the amount of beer they are pumping out. I'm sure there were process changes along the way. So many people bashing treehouse these days its crazy. I've noticed a dip in quality as well. To me, only the double IPA's have that strong yeast ester going on.

I think this is key, the double ipa's have those esters going on. Og is directly related to ester formation.
Apart from maybe not using the right yeast perhaps we should focus more on pushing any particular yeast to maximize esters.
Start with a high og. Low aeration. The right nutrition.
I've gotten some valine and l-leucine to play with on batches.

 

[NJGeorge]

I think this is key, the double ipa's have those esters going on. Og is directly related to ester formation.
Apart from maybe not using the right yeast perhaps we should focus more on pushing any particular yeast to maximize esters.
Start with a high og. Low aeration. The right nutrition.
I've gotten some valine and l-leucine to play with on batches.

I've got valine and l-leucine as well and mentioned them way earlier in this thread. Only tried some on one batch but didn't have the best control then and there were fusels. There is no literature out there on how to use the stuff though. Any thoughts on amounts? Worth a shot to play around with.

 

[TBryerton]

Agreed, or they might be even using a entirely different yeast all together and not the ones were using. I haven't brewed in a while but Ill give it a shot soon and play around more with different yeast. I wonder if they are even naturally carbonating anymore with the amount of beer they are pumping out. I'm sure there were process changes along the way. So many people bashing treehouse these days its crazy. I've noticed a dip in quality as well. To me, only the double IPA's have that strong yeast ester going on.

I find the majority of breweries making this style to be inconsistent, but yes, TH is probably at the top of that list. The thing for me is that when they nail a batch, it’s usually something pretty spectacular. I’m not finding that many other places. I’d rather drink my own stuff than the majority of popular IPA factories these days. It seems like once a month I hear about some brewery that makes better beer than TH, then I go out of may to get it and it’s mediocre at best. In October I made a run up to Portland, ME and all the beer I brought back was pretty impressive (if you haven’t had Belleflower I would add that to your list) but then I cracked a Gggreennn and was a level above everything. Probably the best beer I’ve had in 2021. Those esters and the Galaxy hops go together like peanut butter and jelly. But yes, I’ve had mediocre cans of Green too. And if I remember correctly that was a beer (green or VG) that came back with a lot of T58 samples.

 

[beervoid]

I've got valine and l-leucine as well and mentioned them way earlier in this thread. Only tried some on one batch but didn't have the best control then and there were fusels. There is no literature out there on how to use the stuff though. Any thoughts on amounts? Worth a shot to play around with.

Here is a quote from some research:

"
A broad range of aroma-active esters produced during fermentation are vital for the complex flavour of beer. This study assessed the influence of fermentation temperature, pH, and wort nutritional supplements on the production of yeast-derived ester compounds and the overall fermentation performance. The best fermentation performance was achieved when wort was supplemented with 0.75 g/l l-leucine resulting in highest reducing sugar and FAN (free amino nitrogen) utilization and ethanol production. At optimum fermentation pH of 5, 38.27% reducing sugars and 35.28% FAN was utilized resulting in 4.07% (v/v) ethanol. Wort supplemented with zinc sulphate (0.12 g/l) resulted in 5.01% ethanol (v/v) production and 54.32% reducing sugar utilization. Increase in fermentation temperature from 18°C to room temperature (±22.5°C) resulted in 17.03% increased ethanol production and 14.42% and 62.82% increase in total acetate ester concentration and total ethyl ester concentration, respectively. Supplementation of worth with 0.12 g/l ZnSO4 resulted in 2.46-fold increase in both isoamyl acetate and ethyl decanoate concentration, while a 7.05-fold and 1.96-fold increase in the concentration of isoamyl acetate and ethyl decanoate, respectively was obtained upon 0.75 g/l l-leucine supplementation. Wort supplemented with l-leucine (0.75 g/l) yielded the highest beer foam head stability with a rating of 2.67, while highest yeast viability was achieved when wort was supplemented with 0.12 g/l zinc sulphate. Results from this study suggest that supplementing wort with essential nutrients required for yeast growth and optimizing the fermentation conditions could be an effective way of improving fermentation performance and controlling aroma-active esters in beer."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1389172313002211?via=ihub

 

[echoALEia]

Hope everyone is well! Two questions:

1. Is there anyone doing PCRs on yeasts currently?
2. Does anyone know around when Julius changed from the clearer/deep orange version to the hazy version it became today?

Thanks and Cheers!

 

[NJGeorge]

Hope everyone is well! Two questions:

1. Is there anyone doing PCRs on yeasts currently?
2. Does anyone know around when Julius changed from the clearer/deep orange version to the hazy version it became today?

Thanks and Cheers!

It was clearer in 2013-2014 and went a little more hazy in 2015. Check out their Instagram.

 

[beervoid]

It was clearer in 2013-2014 and went a little more hazy in 2015. Check out their Instagram.

I would bet it's due to dryhopping rates.

 

[TBryerton]

I would bet it's due to dryhopping rates.

Im sure they’ve upped their DH amounts, but my $ would be on grain bill. I’m still convinced their core beers are dry hopped at a low rate compared to todays standards. The difference in Julius and JJJ is to the point you would think they’re completely different beers.

 

[NJGeorge]

I would bet it's due to dryhopping rates.

Could be anything honestly. Were guessing. Could be different grain, hops, yeast. Who knows.. Unless Nate or an employee says something, we'll never know. Supposedly they used a little Munich in Julius back in the day. Could be something different today. Same thing with the yeast. Nate supposedly used S05 back in the day too. Seems like everyone in this thread has lost interest. What ever happened to that analysis done on a can of Julius in the UK? They mentioned one of the yeast was definitely Belgian but i have heard anything since.

 

[JJ900]

Here is a quote from some research:

"
A broad range of aroma-active esters produced during fermentation are vital for the complex flavour of beer. This study assessed the influence of fermentation temperature, pH, and wort nutritional supplements on the production of yeast-derived ester compounds and the overall fermentation performance. The best fermentation performance was achieved when wort was supplemented with 0.75 g/l l-leucine resulting in highest reducing sugar and FAN (free amino nitrogen) utilization and ethanol production. At optimum fermentation pH of 5, 38.27% reducing sugars and 35.28% FAN was utilized resulting in 4.07% (v/v) ethanol. Wort supplemented with zinc sulphate (0.12 g/l) resulted in 5.01% ethanol (v/v) production and 54.32% reducing sugar utilization. Increase in fermentation temperature from 18°C to room temperature (±22.5°C) resulted in 17.03% increased ethanol production and 14.42% and 62.82% increase in total acetate ester concentration and total ethyl ester concentration, respectively. Supplementation of worth with 0.12 g/l ZnSO4 resulted in 2.46-fold increase in both isoamyl acetate and ethyl decanoate concentration, while a 7.05-fold and 1.96-fold increase in the concentration of isoamyl acetate and ethyl decanoate, respectively was obtained upon 0.75 g/l l-leucine supplementation. Wort supplemented with l-leucine (0.75 g/l) yielded the highest beer foam head stability with a rating of 2.67, while highest yeast viability was achieved when wort was supplemented with 0.12 g/l zinc sulphate. Results from this study suggest that supplementing wort with essential nutrients required for yeast growth and optimizing the fermentation conditions could be an effective way of improving fermentation performance and controlling aroma-active esters in beer."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1389172313002211?via=ihub

This is a nice quote. Did the research specify over what time the rise from 18C to room temp was? free-rise or controlled etc?

I also noted the "highest beer foam head stability" and TH beers certainly have an impressive head and those tiny bubbles.

 

[beervoid]

This is a nice quote. Did the research specify over what time the rise from 18C to room temp was? free-rise or controlled etc?

I also noted the "highest beer foam head stability" and TH beers certainly have an impressive head and those tiny bubbles.

I can confirm that I had crazy good foam when comparing the l-leucine batch vs the normal one. Also the esters did pop a little more.
I'll be trying out a bunch of yeasts to see what L-leucine does but so far it was quiet promising.

 

[beervoid]

Hope everyone is well! Two questions:

1. Is there anyone doing PCRs on yeasts currently?
2. Does anyone know around when Julius changed from the clearer/deep orange version to the hazy version it became today?

Thanks and Cheers!

In this tweet Nate replies that 3.5 pounds per barrel for Julius is dated.

 

[echoALEia]

In this tweet Nate replies that 3.5 pounds per barrel for Julius is dated.

Makes me wonder what the hopping rate is for king jjjuliusss

 

[beervoid]

Makes me wonder what the hopping rate is for king jjjuliusss

I've been browsing Project Find The Limit reviews it seems to me somewhere between 4 and 7lbs is where people think its the best.
Alot of hype with this brewery though seems no matter what they do they get high scores.
The blog on their site states there is a voting process and when less then 50% upvote they will stop the project. I dont know where they vote though.
I've had a 8 pounds per barrel tipa, couldn't really say I enjoyed it much. Sweet hop soup.
Surprisingly clean though I must say for such a large dry hop but it just tastes one dimensional too me at some point.

 

[TBryerton]

Makes me wonder what the hopping rate is for king jjjuliusss

From what I’ve seen the price of their beer is directly correlated to amount of hops. So take price of KJJJ, find the ‘Limit’ beer with the closest price, and there’s your answer.

 

[beervoid]

From what I’ve seen the price of their beer is directly correlated to amount of hops. So take price of KJJJ, find the ‘Limit’ beer with the closest price, and there’s your answer.

Smart thinking, whats the pricing on those beers?

 

[brewpharm Hill]

New Fruit Project not naturally carbonated. It was carbonated with recycled CO2 from fermentation using some new equipment. I have a feeling they dropped natural carbonation a while ago, especially when they scaled up to their Charlton location.

 

[echoALEia]

Question for anyone who has tried the Project find the limit series - do they taste more like Monkish style NEIPAs or do they taste more like hoppier (like opening a Fraser bag of hops)/potent versions of Treehouse? I’m wondering if the hopping rate for most of treehouses core beers is much less than 3.5lbs/bbl these days.

 

[TBryerton]

Question for anyone who has tried the Project find the limit series - do they taste more like Monkish style NEIPAs or do they taste more like hoppier (like opening a Fraser bag of hops)/potent versions of Treehouse? I’m wondering if the hopping rate for most of treehouses core beers is much less than 3.5lbs/bbl these days.

I know a lot of people love them, I personally didn’t care for them. The last two times I’ve gotten TH the majority of the beers have been really bad. Some of my friends still seem to enjoy them, but I get an overly ‘green’ vegetable flavor from them that doesn’t go away. Maybe it’s something I’m sensitive to.

Here’s what I find interesting…almost all of their ‘house style’ IPAs fit the description above. They all taste almost identical, and I’m not one of these people that think all TH beers taste the same. I was there last week, had VH and KJ on draft. Both were excellent. Both were from older batch, cans no longer available. The new batch of KJ (can) wasn’t good. Doubleganger, Wall of Sound, Find the Limit, etc all tasted exactly like this. But all the fruit beers were fine. And Snow was great (wheat IPA).

Wouldn’t this lend to theory that there is some type of blending going on? It seems like a lot of the focus has shifted to liquor and beer quality is suffering.

 

[beervoid]

I've had a King Julius recently and didnt detect any of the signature Tree House esters.
Does King Julius usually have those fruity bubblegum esters?

 

[NJGeorge]

I've had a King Julius recently and didnt detect any of the signature Tree House esters.
Does King Julius usually have those fruity bubblegum esters?

I just got some 12 oz cans so ill let you know. I used to get crazy esters in the past KJ when i had them. Especially from Monson. Also, anyone notice ever since this thread died down Nate has stopped mentioning anything about yeast in new beer descriptions? LOL No more house yeast or blend talk.

 

[beervoid]

Just to keep this thread alive, it seems to be hanging on a thread
I recently pitched half a bag t58 warm and shortly after verdant, the beer turned into a belgium ester spice bomb and totally cleared.

 

[beervoid]

I just got some 12 oz cans so ill let you know. I used to get crazy esters in the past KJ when i had them. Especially from Monson. Also, anyone notice ever since this thread died down Nate has stopped mentioning anything about yeast in new beer descriptions? LOL No more house yeast or blend talk.

It really tasted like an equilibrium to me. It was very orange forward. Great beer but was missing the bubblegum esters.
Then again it was 2 months old and not 100% cold chained. I suspect those esters are probably the first to go.

 

[NJGeorge]

Just to keep this thread alive, it seems to be hanging on a thread
I recently pitched half a bag t58 warm and shortly after verdant, the beer turned into a belgium ester spice bomb and totally cleared.

Next time you want to make a THish beer, get bonanza and mix with with an English yeast. You get those banana esters that i sometimes get in TH.

 

[TBryerton]

It really tasted like an equilibrium to me. It was very orange forward. Great beer but was missing the bubblegum esters.
Then again it was 2 months old and not 100% cold chained. I suspect those esters are probably the first to go.

Their beer has gotten so bad that it can be confused with Equilibrium??

In regards to yeast - I think it’s very unlikely T58 or WB06 are pitched early in the process. I’ve played with these quite a bit. You pitch to little, it contributes nothing to the flavor. You add too much, and it sticks out like a sore thumb. Even if they were able to pitch just the correct amount 99% of the time, during that 1% it would be completely obvious what they were doing.

That being said, it’s been a long time since I’ve had TH beer where the typical house yeast flavor stuck out. Maybe they aren’t doing it anymore. It’s also been a really long time since I’ve had a batch where all the beer was good. So who knows what’s changed.

 

[NJGeorge]

So I just had these side by side. I don’t know what treehouse is doing but that amazing yeast ester is GONE. These cans were kept cold and are fresh. Idk if they are using pilsner malt or a lager strain for something but when I really swirl the glass to get aroma, the first thing that pops into my head is lager. They are still good beers but man, not what they used to be. Still unique in their own way but if I got this on a shelf I’d say, sweet good beer but not go out of my way to seek it. I understand ingredients vary year to year but man what happened to the yeast!? I guess I’ll just stick to my homebrew lol sorry Nate!

 

[PilotAlex17]

Has anyone else considered trying Omega’s Bananza yeast in a NEIPA? I’m about to trying and thought I’d mention it here. It is POF- but boasts banana flavor. Could be interesting to mix with another yeast. But I’m going to try it alone this week.

 

[NJGeorge]

Has anyone else considered trying Omega’s Bananza yeast in a NEIPA? I’m about to trying and thought I’d mention it here. It is POF- but boasts banana flavor. Could be interesting to mix with another yeast. But I’m going to try it alone this week.

I’ve tried it like 3 times. You will get banana flavor but for some reason the beer will drop clear with that yeast. Try it and let us know. The beer will be good just not exactly like TH. I think THs malt and hops plays a big role in the flavor.

 

[PilotAlex17]

I’ve tried it like 3 times. You will get banana flavor but for some reason the beer will drop clear with that yeast. Try it and let us know. The beer will be good just not exactly like TH. I think THs malt and hops plays a big role in the flavor.

Will do… I just read how Bananza has dropped clear and that’s why maybe now I’m leaning towards a mix.

And I apologize for missing NJGeorge’s post where he says exactly what I asked. Somehow I didn’t see it.

Lately, my focus has been maximizing esters. Besides TH, I’ve been inspired by Fidens and them having noted the valuable information they gained from Jannish’s book. Using guidance from the book, I’m planning on a few ester-boosting tricks. This includes zinc nutrient, trub-less wort, and reduced oxygen.

I’m stuck on the following however:

- Pitch temp
- Fermentation temperature changes, and when
- Pitch rate (over or under?)

The book shows evidence of boosted esters with a temp drop at peak fermentation. What would you consider peak? Right as it gets going strong, halfway until it starts to slow, or right as it slows?

I’ve heard different things about pitch rate. The book shows overpitching as the way to get more esters, but everyone has always talked about TH mentioning underpitching. I’m theory, overpitching provides more cells to divide. But underpitching allows more division.

Any thoughts?

 

[beervoid]

Will do… I just read how Bananza has dropped clear and that’s why maybe now I’m leaning towards a mix.

And I apologize for missing NJGeorge’s post where he says exactly what I asked. Somehow I didn’t see it.

Lately, my focus has been maximizing esters. Besides TH, I’ve been inspired by Fidens and them having noted the valuable information they gained from Jannish’s book. Using guidance from the book, I’m planning on a few ester-boosting tricks. This includes zinc nutrient, trub-less wort, and reduced oxygen.

I’m stuck on the following however:

- Pitch temp
- Fermentation temperature changes, and when
- Pitch rate (over or under?)

The book shows evidence of boosted esters with a temp drop at peak fermentation. What would you consider peak? Right as it gets going strong, halfway until it starts to slow, or right as it slows?

I’ve heard different things about pitch rate. The book shows overpitching as the way to get more esters, but everyone has always talked about TH mentioning underpitching. I’m theory, overpitching provides more cells to divide. But underpitching allows more division.

Any thoughts?

Science is not clear on under or over pitching, both seem to work.
I always understood the majority of esters are formed in first 24h so I would drop the temp not to long after pitching.

 

[CleanEmUpIves]

I’ve tried it like 3 times. You will get banana flavor but for some reason the beer will drop clear with that yeast. Try it and let us know. The beer will be good just not exactly like TH. I think THs malt and hops plays a big role in the flavor.

Jannish's book may be due for a 2nd edition. Apparently some new research indicates dry hopping at day 7 produced the most haze in their experiments. Of course Jannish also presented at the conference. Not sure if/where the PowerPoint presentations are available for download.

https://anhc.com.au/index.php/the-event/presentations/37-hazy-magic-derek

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Science is not clear on under or over pitching, both seem to work.
I always understood the majority of esters are formed in first 24h so I would drop the temp not to long after pitching.

It's more that you get different flavour-active compounds produced in each case. There's been a presentation posted on the main NEIPA thread a while back with some charts on it.

 

[beervoid]

It's more that you get different flavour-active compounds produced in each case. There's been a presentation posted on the main NEIPA thread a while back with some charts on it.

Very interesting, might I bother you for a link or something I can search for?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Very interesting, might I bother you for a link or something I can search for?

Normally I try to be very good about providing links to that kind of stuff but I just can't remember enough about the context to search sensibly (and it's a huge thread that is forever mentioning "esters", "pitchrate" etc!!!). I have a feeling it was a presentation at a conference in Australia, but that's about all I can remember.

Anyway - it's a well known phenomenon, it's just that was the first I'd seen saying "overpitching gives more X and less Y whereas underpitching is more A and less B".

 

[beervoid]

Normally I try to be very good about providing links to that kind of stuff but I just can't remember enough about the context to search sensibly (and it's a huge thread that is forever mentioning "esters", "pitchrate" etc!!!). I have a feeling it was a presentation at a conference in Australia, but that's about all I can remember.

Anyway - it's a well known phenomenon, it's just that was the first I'd seen saying "overpitching gives more X and less Y whereas underpitching is more A and less B".

Ok no worries, I seem to recall something, I've been following that thread closely.
Will try and look for it but if anyone here can chip in please do.
Cheers

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Will try and look for it but if anyone here can chip in please do.

I am not sure if it is the same study, but the following Bru Lab podcast discussed yeasts and dry hop timing and the impacts on haze:
Episode 044 | Yeast Dependent Haze w/ Dr. Laura Burns

The links I could find about the presentation were paywalled, like this one:
https://events.rdmobile.com/Sessions/Details/1196096

 

[madmartigan_boing]

It's S33.

 

[beervoid]

It's S33.

Is it?
Waiting for thread to explode again

 

[brewpharm Hill]

It's S33.

S33 is Tree House's yeast?

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Picked up some cans a couple weeks ago. Julius, Doppleganger, Juice Machine, Queen julius, Haze, Bright w/ Nelson.

Best batch I've had in quite some time. Their house flavor was more detectable to me than usual (except for Bright - we know that uses clean american ale yeast). Dopple, Julius, and Haze had the most house character to me. Juice machine was a close second and the Queen Julius had the least amount of detectable yeast character (still there though).

Overall, I was pleased! The last few batches I've picked up sporadically over the course of the year have had varying house flavor (to me). The most recent cans I've had were the best I've had all year.