Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

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brewpharm Hill said:
Picked up some cans a couple weeks ago. Julius, Doppleganger, Juice Machine, Queen julius, Haze, Bright w/ Nelson.

Best batch I've had in quite some time. Their house flavor was more detectable to me than usual (except for Bright - we know that uses clean american ale yeast). Dopple, Julius, and Haze had the most house character to me. Juice machine was a close second and the Queen Julius had the least amount of detectable yeast character (still there though).

Overall, I was pleased! The last few batches I've picked up sporadically over the course of the year have had varying house flavor (to me). The most recent cans I've had were the best I've had all year.
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Yeah I agree, I got my hands on some after a 2 year hiatus. It blows my mind how expressive those yeasts are. I was drinking them along side Other Half and Bissell. and BY FAR their yeast adds sooooo much to the beer, and its 100% what separates them from the masses. It's not just hops and malt hat you taste from everyone else, its all kinds of wonderful rich super overipe greatness.

Im going to step up one of the cans of Verrrrry Green and pitch it into my next brew in a few weeks, we'll see what kind of flavors comes from it. I'm very tempted to ferment warm, rewove all trub, and try and bring out more esters, we shall see. But maybe for this batch I'll just go with 66F as its whats been mentioned, but I still think temp is a key factor here in bringing out more expressive esters.

I also whole heartedly believe they blend batches as mentioned here and there, its not financially feasible to pitch new yeasts every time. Blending would be the only way to control multiple strains. Ive done the 95% S04, 3%T58, 2%WB06 mix and one time was actually really good, probably the best beer Ive ever brewed, the other times were nothing close. The WB06 can easily overwhelm. Too hard to be consistent when you're dealing with such a small percentage, though on the large scale obviously much easier. But the easiest way to be consistent, is to blend batches to your taste. That way you can also have more control over the bubblegum esters by fermenting that batch and strain at a lower temp, but fermenting the S04 at a higher temp to bring out the fruit, I don't know, Its a freaking mystery.
 
Treehouse just posted videos of their brewing equipment and cellar operations in YouTube, the equipment video (9 days ago) already has 26K views… the cellar video (2 days old) barely reached the 7K mark (7.1K).. and a packaging video is on the works.. these videos will reignite this thread for months to come.

@eric.vandernet 100% on blending, I was the first to mention the blending theory which some have called ‘obscure’ LOL, but again, someone making a significant investment into a large batch got to be insane to co-pitch all three yeasts - to me that’s too much risk seeing how the phenols can overpower a brew, something I haven’t noticed in a treehouse beer. It’s just common sense.
 
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@troxerX That video is what dreams are made of. Enjoyed nerding out on it quite a bit, so much control and controls, very impressive. Noticed they blurred out the big sacks but didn't blur out the side of the sack LMAO, so Wyermann Carafoam is definitely a high volume malt.

100% agree, the esters are way too much of an inconsistent variable when blending yeasts, blending beer is much more controllable and Nate LOVES control so he wouldn't just be the type that that hopes its pretty consistent.

And to the blending, they have 60bbl tanks, 120, and 240, just adds to the theory that maybe they blend, and J is a blend of 60bbl of a maybe WB-06 + / T58 and then 120bbl of S04, so a 33% - 66% ratio mix, that then gets blended into the 240 tanks. Or maybe even 60bbl of WB06, a separate 60 of T58, then 120 of S04 = 240bbls. The math is all there and why he said they wanted those size tanks in the brewhouse. So it comes down to nailing that bubblegum melon % that is the magic mix. Once we figure out that temperature range needed to get those bubblegum melon juicy fruit esters, then we can blend it down to make it less intense and still have that wow factor that I get every time I sip that gold.

My system doesn't allow me to ferment smaller batches (SS 7 gallon Unitank) but I definitely want to try and start playing around with WB06 and T58 at different temperatures and under pitching to see what resembles the TH esters the most, without the dreaded spice and pepper, just the fruit. And maybe it is a little of this, and a little of that, and badabingbadaboom.
 
They didn’t, that should have been part of the cellar Ops but they didn’t. They are shading critical info like some grains and fermentation temps however were very open about hop varieties they use.
 
The question is, do you believe they were blending in Monson? The reason I ask is because ALOT of people argue, me included, that Monson Julius and Green were lightyears better than Charlton Julius and Green. I've never seen in-depth tours of the Monson brewery to see if they had multiple tank sizes.
 
I'm not convinced they are blending purely based on different fermentation tank sizes, they experiment alot so you wouldn't want to do a 240bbl batch with some new recipe. Imho the biggest tanks are for core range and high demand beers, the mid size for seasonals and the small ones for experiments.
 
beervoid said:
I'm not convinced they are blending purely based on different fermentation tank sizes, they experiment alot so you wouldn't want to do a 240bbl batch with some new recipe. Imho the biggest tanks are for core range and high demand beers, the mid size for seasonals and the small ones for experiments.
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Yeah but they have J and VH in a 60 tank. (See their Cellar Video, screen shot attached). There would be absolutely no reason to do those in small volume other than having that 60 doing something different, and that variable could only be the yeast and/or temp.

So here's what I think is going on - WB-06 in that 60 at a higher temp to bring out those bubblegum juicy fruit esters. Then cold crash it, pull it off the yeast cake and blend it back into the main batch......... maybe before the tail end of fermentation before its dried out too far, or maybe even sooner (after 48-72 hours once the esters have peaked) as well while there are still lots of fermentable left to a) avoid oxidation during the transfer, b) giving the CBC something to chew on for natural carbonation, and maybe c) to stop the WB-06 from fermenting out too far (then they could even add fresh wort to that 60s yeast cake for the next batch or a different batch)

Then Dry Hop the entire batch, and at the same time hit it with the CBC-1, so it can start carbonation, but also to chew up any additional fermentables brought in by the DH (avoid hop creep and diacetyl) and get that wonderful natural carbonation for mouthfeel.

They blur those temps because for sure they are doing something outside of the norm, and that's got to be the magic ticket.
TH - FVs.jpg
 
In the video when he talks with the floor manager at 31mins in does anyone hear what he says? He said he is excited about the "bubblehop" tank.

Edit:
Nevermind thats a beverage.
 
After being a long-time lurker and after reading this entire thread on two different occasions, I think I’m going to give this a try. I’m at the stage now where I need to experiment to get me out of a hazy ipa brewing rut. With that said, I want to give a run down of the equipment I have available, and figure out what the best course of action is. I’m an apartment brewer. I brew 2 gallon batches into the fermenter (1.5 gallons after losses into the keg). I think @echoALEia has been the closest to matching the profile, so I’m going to use some of his techniques with my smaller scale equipment.

Here’s what I have for equipment:
  • 3 gallon Fermonster with two ball lock gas posts in the lid along with a hole for a stopper so I’m able to dry hop or use the port for my oxygen free transfers
  • 6 gallon pot and brew bag
  • 2000ml flask and stir plate
  • Scales that are able to read to the hundredth of a gram
  • 1.5 gallon Torpedo keg
  • Two 2.5 gallon Torpedo kegs
  • Mini fridge I use for fermentation control
  • 2 Ink Bird temp controllers
  • Tilt hydrometer
I used echoALEia’s yeast and volume proportions and scaled them down for what would work for me. Here’s my plan:
  1. Brew a beer consisting of 83.5% Rahr 2-Row, 15% Carafoam, and 1.5% Honey malt. Plan on using some Columbus LupoMax at 15 minutes for 20ibu’s, and then a whirlpool at 160F using Citra and Vic Secret. Once chilled, use 5.52g of S-04 and pitching at 66F and holding for 24 hours. Then let the beer free rise until it’s done. One finished, soft crash at 55F to drop any yeast still in suspension.
  2. As the main beer is finishing, make 1000ml of wort in my flask with a gravity of 1.065 or so using Pilsen DME. Pitching 0.53g of T-58 and 0.26g of WB06 and letting it sit at 75F for 12 hours.
  3. After the 12 hours, I would pitch the flask beer into the main S-04 batch. After that, I’m lost.
After pitching the flask into the main batch, should I let the beer rise in temp or keep it at 55F? Should I pitch some CBC-1? Should I worry about oxygen ingress? With all my other neipa’s I’ve moved from mid ferm dry hopping to hopping after fermentation is done, and a 24 hour soft crash has been performed. I want to do that with this one, but do a massive dry hop. If anyone is still interested in this, please let me know if you have any advice, criticisms, or info. I’ve lurked long enough and want to contribute something to this thread.
 
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LumberZach said:
After being a long-time lurker and after reading this entire thread on two different occasions, I think I’m going to give this a try. I’m at the stage now where I need to experiment to get me out of a hazy ipa brewing rut. With that said, I want to give a run down of the equipment I have available, and figure out what the best course of action is. I’m an apartment brewer. I brew 2 gallon batches into the fermenter (1.5 gallons after losses into the keg). I think @echoALEia has been the closest to matching the profile, so I’m going to use some of his techniques with my smaller scale equipment.

Here’s what I have for equipment:
  • 3 gallon Fermonster with two ball lock gas posts in the lid along with a hole for a stopper so I’m able to dry hop or use the port for my oxygen free transfers
  • 6 gallon pot and brew bag
  • 2000ml flask and stir plate
  • Scales that are able to read to the hundredth of a gram
  • 1.5 gallon Torpedo keg
  • Two 2.5 gallon Torpedo kegs
  • Mini fridge I use for fermentation control
  • 2 Ink Bird temp controllers
  • Tilt hydrometer
I used echoALEia’s yeast and volume proportions and scaled them down for what would work for me. Here’s my plan:
  1. Brew a beer consisting of 83.5% Rahr 2-Row, 15% Carafoam, and 1.5% Honey malt. Plan on using some Columbus LupoMax at 15 minutes for 20ibu’s, and then a whirlpool at 160F using Citra and Vic Secret. Once chilled, use 5.52g of S-04 and pitching at 66F and holding for 24 hours. Then let the beer free rise until it’s done. One finished, soft crash at 55F to drop any yeast still in suspension.
  2. As the main beer is finishing, make 1000ml of wort in my flask with a gravity of 1.065 or so using Pilsen DME. Pitching 0.53g of T-58 and 0.26g of WB06 and letting it sit at 75F for 12 hours.
  3. After the 12 hours, I would pitch the flask beer into the main S-04 batch. After that, I’m lost.
After pitching the flask into the main batch, should I let the beer rise in temp or keep it at 55F? Should I pitch some CBC-1? Should I worry about oxygen ingress? With all my other neipa’s I’ve moved from mid ferm dry hopping to hopping after fermentation is done, and a 24 hour soft crash has been performed. I want to do that with this one, but do a massive dry hop. If anyone is still interested in this, please let me know if you have any advice, criticisms, or info. I’ve lurked long enough and want to contribute something to this thread.
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Good plan! How much per gallon do you dry hop when fermentation is complete? I’d say add those dry hops to the flask, mix well, then add to the fermenter. Once in the fermenter - mix everything well - that might replicate what I’ve done and if it’s correct you should get the aroma and flavor. The question I’ve had is how do you keep it because it evolves after 24 hours even at cold temperatures
 
echoALEia said:
Good plan! How much per gallon do you dry hop when fermentation is complete? I’d say add those dry hops to the flask, mix well, then add to the fermenter. Once in the fermenter - mix everything well - that might replicate what I’ve done and if it’s correct you should get the aroma and flavor. The question I’ve had is how do you keep it because it evolves after 24 hours even at cold temperatures
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I usually do 2-3oz. per gallon for the dry hop. I want to hop it with Citra and Simcoe, being more heavy with the Citra. Do I need to worry about oxygen pitching a still fermenting wort into one that's 55F? If so, I have those gas posts on my fermonster lid that I can push CO2 through while I pour the T-58/WB-06 wort in. That's really the best I can do. Also, what do you think about sprinkling in some CBC-1? As far as agitating the hops, I have no way to dump the yeast in the primary batch, so if I shake the fermenter, I will re-suspend the S-04. I won't feel too bad if this doesn't turn out since it's a small batch. I just hope it's mostly successful so I have something I can work off of rather than starting from square one again.

I also remember seeing something said in this thread that the POF+ gene in WB-06 can get deactivated by the presence of sucrose.
 
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beervoid said:
I'm not convinced they are blending purely based on different fermentation tank sizes, they experiment alot so you wouldn't want to do a 240bbl batch with some new recipe. Imho the biggest tanks are for core range and high demand beers, the mid size for seasonals and the small ones for experiments.
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See this is what makes me think they blend. They have a 120 bbl system with 240 bbl fermenters and smaller fermenters both 120 and 60. Makes me think they have big fermenters to mix. Have two tanks for julius then blend them together in the big 240 tank. And with old photos of them having fermenting carboys next to yeast starters (somewhere on this thread) that was what they were doing back then on a homebrew scale.
 
Also I made a double NEIPA all citra beer over the summer. I can conditioned 6 cans because I had extra and wanted to try it out. The beers tasted completely different than what I had in the keg. It tasted like a treehouse beer. I don’t know why but it was awesome. I have a newborn now so I don’t brew as much but next batch I want to do half in cans and half in a keg. Not sure if TH can do this on their large scale now but as a homebrewer the beer was 10x better and worth it. Just don’t know if that was why until I do it again.
 
Mousetrapbrewery said:
Also I made a double NEIPA all citra beer over the summer. I can conditioned 6 cans because I had extra and wanted to try it out. The beers tasted completely different than what I had in the keg. It tasted like a treehouse beer. I don’t know why but it was awesome. I have a newborn now so I don’t brew as much but next batch I want to do half in cans and half in a keg. Not sure if TH can do this on their large scale now but as a homebrewer the beer was 10x better and worth it. Just don’t know if that was why until I do it again.
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at what temps did u condition?
 
Mousetrapbrewery said:
See this is what makes me think they blend. They have a 120 bbl system with 240 bbl fermenters and smaller fermenters both 120 and 60. Makes me think they have big fermenters to mix.
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They may well blend, but I wouldn't view this as compelling evidence for it. Brewkit is (relatively) expensive, fermenters are (relatively) cheap, floorspace in breweries tends to be somewhat constrained, certainly in successful, growing ones. So it's pretty common for breweries to have a double-size fermenter that can accommodate a double-brewday's worth of their core beer - nothing to do with blending, just the way the economics work.
 
Mousetrapbrewery said:
Also I made a double NEIPA all citra beer over the summer. I can conditioned 6 cans because I had extra and wanted to try it out. The beers tasted completely different than what I had in the keg. It tasted like a treehouse beer. I don’t know why but it was awesome.
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Your CAMRA membership is in the mail....
 
Am I right in thinking that we have this idea of separating fermentations because 04 tastes better fermented lower than the wb-06/t-58 mix which needs to be fermented higher to avoid the phenols?

On a side note, my next batch will be an A38 juice and omega bananza mix fermented at 74° with a focus on no trub, the higher ferment temp, and locking in the esters by perhaps lowering the temperature after the ester production phase, and perhaps capping the tank with a spunding valve. I recently split some wort and fermented 1 gallon out of 6 with bananza and it had terrific esters. But I think I lost them when I put the batches together somewhat sloppily.
 
Still not sure if they're blending batches...

I'm willing to bet that they use the smaller tanks for fermentation and they all go into a larger brite tank to control for how the yeast acts in different fermenter sizes. The alchemist does the same thing for Heady ... when you have larger tanks the pressure of the large volume can suppress esters and flavors...therefore they use the smaller fermenters. All the same fermentation/yeast. Not different fermentations/yeasts to be blended. Don't think the sizes of their brewhouse, to fermenters, to brites are all that out of the ordinary.

Also, didn't see a single yeast brink in the cellar in the videos and I never have while I'm at the brewery which leads me to believe they are using dry yeast and maybe reusing the yeast cakes (could be risky for infections though?). It sounded like they're capping their fermenters towards the end of the fermentation (likely capping with the dry hop which is what trillium does and has recommended to homebrewers). Capping at the end of fermentation will provide natural carb, lock in dry hop aromas/flavors. They may be adding the other yeasts as well at the time of dry hop for 2 reasons: 1) We know that yeasts pitched later in fermentation, especially after the third day, provide little to no flavor and 2) by adding the yeasts under pressure you are suppressing their phenol and ester production (which would be a good thing for very expressive yeasts like wb06 and t58. The yeasts added with the dry hop would also help scavenge O2 pickup.) CBC1 would be added to the brite tanks to prevent hopcreep and issues with the wb06 diastaticus.

Edit: With their dry hopping rates it would be hard to re-use yeast cakes, I would assume. May be other ways around that without a yeast brink.
 
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troxerX said:
Has someone tried asking ChatGPT to write a thesis on how to brew a Treehouse clone?
Click to expand...
Thesis Statement: A successful clone of Tree House Brewing Company's Julius beer can be brewed by carefully controlling the grain bill, hops, yeast, and water profile, while also understanding the unique brewing techniques used by Tree House.

Introduction: Tree House Brewing Company's Julius beer is a highly sought after New England-style IPA that has become a fan favorite due to its hazy appearance, juicy hop flavors, and smooth mouthfeel. The goal of this thesis is to outline the steps and techniques necessary to brew a clone of Julius that accurately captures its unique qualities.

Methodology: The first step in brewing a clone of Julius is to recreate the grain bill, which includes a mix of malted barley, wheat, and oats. Next, the hops used in the beer must be chosen carefully, as the specific hop varieties used in Julius are crucial to its flavor profile. A specific yeast strain that is known to produce the desired flavor and aroma characteristics must also be selected. Finally, the water profile must be adjusted to match that of the water used by Tree House in their brewing process.

Technique: In order to recreate the signature hazy appearance of Julius, the beer must be brewed with a combination of techniques, including a low flocculation yeast, high protein grains, and minimal filtration. Additionally, a warm fermentation temperature and a slow cold crash will also contribute to the beer's hazy appearance.

Water Profile: The water used in the brewing process must be adjusted to match the mineral content and pH levels of the water used by Tree House. This can be achieved through the addition of minerals such as calcium, magnesium, and chloride, as well as by adjusting the pH levels with the addition of acid or base.

Conclusion: By carefully controlling the grain bill, hops, yeast, and water profile, as well as utilizing the unique brewing techniques used by Tree House, a successful clone of Julius beer can be brewed. With patience, attention to detail, and a passion for brewing, anyone can brew a clone of this highly sought after New England-style IPA
 
Thanks @Thorrak !, pretty good answer for something that has no taste and no experience brewing - reminds me of my 16yo teaching me how to be an adult after reading a couple articles..

Another question for the masses, in the equipment video, Nate mentions ‘Maillard’ reactions when talking about the boil kettle - is anything visible in the video that suggests decoction? like a grain pump between the mash tun and kettle?, it does not looks like to me but just wondering if anyone noticed anything else - reason I bring this is that TH beers have great head retention and softer mouthfeel which are some of the advantages of decoction. Also decoction is known to improve polyphenol formation, hop isomerization, low DMS and acetaldehyde, improved glucose, maltose and amino acid formation to name a few.. maybe a Hochkurz/Hermann mash? asking if anyone noticed something along those lines..
 
beervoid said:
"By carefully controlling the grain bill, hops, yeast, and water profile, as well as utilizing the unique brewing techniques used by Tree House, a successful clone of Julius beer can be brewed."

The mystery is finally solved!!
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Step 1: Clone the recipe
Step 2: Brew the recipe

Congratulations! You have now brewed Julius!
 
Anyone happen to be at TH yesterday and see Nate homebrew? I’m sure he didn’t show much or reveal much but I’d be curious if you could see mash temps/how long they’re doing it/boil times/hop stand etc.
 
Nate single-IPA:

ABV: 7%

2-Row 85%
Carafoam 5%
Oats 10%

Mash: 152F

Boil:

Magnum, 60' 20 IBU
Amarillo, 20' 5 IBU
Citra, 20' 5 IBU
Simcoe, 20' 5 IBU

"Same quantities (Amarillo, Citra, Simcoe) at Flameout"

Yeast: LAIII, 68-70F

Dry Hop at 60F for 4 to 5 days: Amarillo, Citra, Simcoe at 15 grams per liter (2 ounces per gallon).

"15g/L is relatively aggressive in the dry hop, and for many palates 8-10 G/L will be beautiful."
 
@Clyde McCoy seems like “Hoppy Thing” ‘Decoy’ recipe #2… should call their homebrew batch this week ‘Project Find the Decoy’.. LOL



This is a good way to distract people from getting deeper into the secrets LOL

This will make a solid IPA for sure but not a Julius clone which I’m afraid people will try unsuccessfully…
 
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troxerX said:
@Clyde McCoy seems like “Hoppy Thing” ‘Decoy’ recipe #2… should call their homebrew batch this week ‘Project Find the Decoy’.. LOL



This is a good way to distract people from getting deeper into the secrets LOL
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I think other than yeast it's probably faithful to some of their single-IPAs IMO

In another vid Nate mentions receiving a LAIII pitch so I bet they use it on occasion
 
@Clyde McCoy 100% I agree, I recall tasting the yeast burn typical of LAIII in their ‘Trick’ DIPA which I wasn’t a big fan so I’m sure they’ve been using it sporadically. Same for other ingredients like flaked grains and different hop varieties.

But when it comes to the Julius series, the recipe is locked and we will never hear it from the horses mouth… it’s up to us to put the work in and figure it out.
 
Clyde McCoy said:
I think other than yeast it's probably faithful to some of their single-IPAs IMO

In another vid Nate mentions receiving a LAIII pitch so I bet they use it on occasion
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It sounded scripted when he said that, video was cut and the way how he said there is a pitch coming in, as if specifically wants us to know they order that for their batches.. and he wants to use that.
Dunno maybe I'm imagining things.
 
Yeah and what does 5% Carafoam does?, nothing.. you got to have 15 if not 20% for it to have some effect, also I’m sure he uses Crystal 60 for Julius as you can see in the old Julius and even in the King and jjJ versions that deep darker reddish color. What about water profile sulfate-chloride ratio?, if ‘IPA doesn’t have to be hard’ why not share mineral additions..
 
Who wants to speculate more. Latest video is brewing on the old system. around 4:15 they make a point to highlight their "secret sauce" addition. Is it just salts? mystery chemicals? literally nothing and they're trolling? You decide.

 
cegan09 said:
Who wants to speculate more. Latest video is brewing on the old system. around 4:15 they make a point to highlight their "secret sauce" addition. Is it just salts? mystery chemicals? literally nothing and they're trolling? You decide.
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I have to think he was just trolling a bit and he was just adding some salts to the mash. I had to love the way-oversized plate chiller and hoses to transfer into the fermenter. There had to be a gallon or so of loss with that setup.
 
NJGeorge said:
I've got valine and l-leucine as well and mentioned them way earlier in this thread. Only tried some on one batch but didn't have the best control then and there were fusels. There is no literature out there on how to use the stuff though. Any thoughts on amounts? Worth a shot to play around with.
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Did you ever figure this out? How did it turn out? Im working on my next batch and considering l-leucine.
 

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