Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[ThePaleAleIndian]

those getting clove, are you using wheat in your malt bill? That would tend to accentuate the clove due to increased levels of ferulic acid. Mashing lower tends to pull out more as well. You could also shorten your boil. Heat transforms the precursor of FA into 4-vinylgauacol

Yeah, I was thinking along exactly these lines. I did a decoction mash on mine and mashed in at about 100F. IIRC, ferulic acid is formed best at mash temps of like 110F or so and so I have the potential to make boat loads of 4-VG with WB-06 and my mash schedule plus the 25% or so wheat I used. Part of my plan to reduce the 4-VG next time is to mash in at 156F or so with zero wheat. I'll probably still do a decoction mash out though.

 

[melville]

Drinking the latest Julius, as well as the Tornado I'm amazed how little hop presence there actually seems to be. I get the feeling like the flavor and nose is significantly more yeast driven than hop driven.

And what might you be noticing about the yeast? Hint of something in the finish?

 

[melville]

If anyone cares, did an all galaxy ale with S-04, rahr, carafoam. Super juicy thanks to Galaxy, but kinda get a twang at the end. Could be because I fermented at 78f for 8 hrs by accident. I feel I need more depth with hops and malt.

How much carafoam?

 

[Cevan65]

I don't think it's a hybrid. Treehouse started from really humble beginnings and they've been turning out the same beer, really. I think, if it would be a guarantee, you could find enough people to chip in for that $200. I would certainly be one of them

This is true. I buy my beer supplies from the guy that used to supply Nate (head Treehouse brewer) and he used to ferment with 05 for the longest time.

 

[SanPancho]

So if it’s the smaller FVs those are 60 BBL. I believe 20% headspace is standard right? If that’s the case then 8 bricks would equal roughly 2.68g per gallon.. which seems round about correct but who knows what beer it was.

thats crazy high. F2 spec sheet says 2-7g per hectoliter. .10 to .25g per gallon. and CBC only shows .4g per gallon per spec sheet. (10g per hl)

those tanks are larger or the math is way off.

 

[TheHairyHop]

This is true. I buy my beer supplies from the guy that used to supply Nate (head Treehouse brewer) and he used to ferment with 05 for the longest time.

good to see some MA brewers in this thread. It's really taken off since I left. I sitll have a hard time finding supplies when I'm visiting and bored haha. Central MA is a bit of a wasteland, though

 

[couchsending]

thats crazy high. F2 spec sheet says 2-7g per hectoliter. .10 to .25g per gallon. and CBC only shows .4g per gallon per spec sheet. (10g per hl)

those tanks are larger or the math is way off.

It was determined that it was an FV those bricks were thrown into not a Brite so primary fermentation not just carbonating.

 

[SanPancho]

ah, got it. ok then, that makes sense. did anybody happen to see the actual bricks or have a closer photo? colors, sizes,etc.

 

[Sbe2]

How much carafoam?

23%

10 lb rahr, 3 lbs cara

 

[Jmash]

I get that feeling too. I had a Haze recently and while the aroma had a lot of hop character I got a lot of banana in the flavor. Just me and my palette of course.

Fwiw, I used about 8% WB-06 and 7% T-58 in my last and only attempt and it is waaaaaay too much clove in my perception. Also much, much more than any TH beer I've had, I don't get any clove in their beers.

I will say though that as I'm sitting here drinking some of mine right now, it is less clove-y than it was. Still much more than I would like. This was 4 oz Galaxy, 4 oz Citra and 2 oz Eldorado for dry hops and a skimpy 2 oz Galaxy hop stand for the only kettle hops.

I'm in week 3 in the serving keg of my 80-10-10 batch and the flavor is definitely changing to more bubblegummy than clovey. Still too much for a Julius clone but everyone who tastes it likes it.
I think next batch needs amarillo. I love Doppleganger maybe better than Julius

 

[Jmash]

good to see some MA brewers in this thread. It's really taken off since I left. I sitll have a hard time finding supplies when I'm visiting and bored haha. Central MA is a bit of a wasteland, though

Their move from Monson to Charlton has made me a frequent traveler. I live 5 minutes from Trillium but Id rather make the TH drive now depending on what's being sold. I'm not driving out there for 12 cans of Lights On or Eureka or Bright Nelson. But put Julius, Haze, Green, Alter Ego, or Doppleganger out there and I'm on my way. Wednesday was a 12 Julius/ 16 Haze/6 Ma day

 

[melville]

I'm in week 3 in the serving keg of my 80-10-10 batch and the flavor is definitely changing to more bubblegummy than clovey. Still too much for a Julius clone but everyone who tastes it likes it.
I think next batch needs amarillo. I love Doppleganger maybe better than Julius

Did your Julius clone not include Amarillo?

 

[Jmash]

No. I was using up my citra, mosaic and simcoe

 

[melville]

Here's the Julius description:
"...aromas of mango, peach, passionfruit, and a melange of citrus juice"

Supposedly three hops. American. Keeping in mind we know they now like to use hop extracts for bittering.

Based on their descriptions with known hops listed this squares with Citra (TH descriptors include: passion fruit, citrus fruit, papaya, guava, mango) and Amarillo (TH descriptors include: peach, tangerine, apricot, orange, pineapple) and "X". The only thing missing is "melange of citrus juice" — I've guessed at Cascade and Ekuanot.

In one interview Nate mentions "melon" in the finish vs "citrus".

 

[StinkyBeer]

Latest attempt with this yeast is 89/8/3. Ferment at 65 and let rise to 72 towards end.

Pale, Munich, Oats, Wheat, Carafoam.

1.073

Estimating 80% attenuation so should be an 8% beer.

Citra heavy dry hop with some thrown in at knock out.

I love the fermentation with this blend...vigorous and no diacetyl...T-58 hangs around and cleans up!

Chloride in the kettle for mouthfeel.

 

[Jmash]

Here's the Julius description:
"...aromas of mango, peach, passionfruit, and a melange of citrus juice"

Supposedly three hops. American. Keeping in mind we know they now like to use hop extracts for bittering.

Based on their descriptions with known hops listed this squares with Citra (TH descriptors include: passion fruit, citrus fruit, papaya, guava, mango) and Amarillo (TH descriptors include: peach, tangerine, apricot, orange, pineapple) and "X". The only thing missing is "melange of citrus juice" — I've guessed at Cascade and Ekuanot.

In one interview Nate mentions "melon" in the finish vs "citrus".

I use 4 mil hopshot for bittering. I think I'm going to go 40% amarillo 40%citra 20% simcoe.
I thought cascade would be too piney? I have some ekuanot cryo but "green pepper" makes me nervous

 

[melville]

Just for fun...

Green: "tropical heavy IPA opens up in the glass with notes of hugely flavorful notes of lemon-lime, pineapple, orange sorbet, and tangerine"

Known: Cross-continental
Previous descriptions: “boatloads of australian and NZ hops” & "pineapple, tangerine, and orange rind"
More recently: australian & north american (no mention of NZ)

Obviously Galaxy (TH descriptors: pineapple, grapefruit, grapefruit pith, orange)
probably Amarillo (TH descriptors: peach, tangerine, apricot, orange, pineapple)
????:
Cashmere: lemon lime melon
Motueka: lemon lime
Enigma:
Vic Secret: (TH descriptors: mango), but also an earthier Galaxy
Cascade
Simcoe: (TH descriptor with Galaxy:"lemon lime, pineapple, passion fruit, earthy tropicality"), (TH descriptor with Amarillo: "Apricot, peach, grapefruit, juicy tangerine.")

Assuming 3 hops: Galaxy, Amarillo, Simcoe.

 

[melville]

One more...

Haze: "a ton of peach on the nose, with complimentary notes of orange and passionfruit. The flavor is similar with a blast of citrus fruit & peach quickly followed by a bounty of tropical fruit" & "We smell a ton of orange on the nose, with complimentary notes of peach and passionfruit. The flavor is similar with a blast of citrus fruit" & "orange quickly followed by spicy grapefruit, and earthy dankness"

Known: hops with easy availability. Also, bittered and flavored with warrior extract

Likely:
Amarillo: (TH descriptors: peach, tangerine, apricot, orange, pineapple)
Citra: (TH descriptors include: passion fruit, citrus fruit, papaya, guava, mango)

Maybe:
Cascade: known for spicy grapefruit
Columbus: (TH descriptor: "dank herbs"), known for being "earthy"

 

[melville]

I use 4 mil hopshot for bittering. I think I'm going to go 40% amarillo 40%citra 20% simcoe.
I thought cascade would be too piney? I have some ekuanot cryo but "green pepper" makes me nervous

Simcoe TH descriptors typically include "red grapefruit, grapefruit" & "basalm" (in the case of Sap)

 

[Jmash]

May go heavier amarillo than citra. Like I said I'm really digging Doppleganger and Alter Ego

 

[couchsending]

Just made something roughly inspired by Green. Vic Secret’s primary descriptor is Pineapple. I went Galaxy, Vic Secret, El Dorado. Galaxy was very easy to pick out when I grabbed some Green in September, the other’s I don’t know. El Dorado is almost always candy to me although El Dorado Cutting Tiles was straight Dole Pineapple juice when first cracked but as it warmed it an incredible Apricot profile. That was probably the juiciest beer I’ve ever had... Conditioning at 40* at the moment. Gonna force carb this one as I haven’t done it in a while.

 

[melville]

Just made something roughly inspired by Green. Vic Secret’s primary descriptor is Pineapple. I went Galaxy, Vic Secret, El Dorado. Galaxy was very easy to pick out when I grabbed some Green in September, the other’s I don’t know. El Dorado is almost always candy to me although El Dorado Cutting Tiles was straight Dole Pineapple juice when first cracked but as it warmed it an incredible Apricot profile. That was probably the juiciest beer I’ve ever had... Conditioning at 40* at the moment. Gonna force carb this one as I haven’t done it in a while.

That sounds really good, I'll be over when it's done.

 

[melville]

Just for fun...

Green: "tropical heavy IPA opens up in the glass with notes of hugely flavorful notes of lemon-lime, pineapple, orange sorbet, and tangerine"

Known: Cross-continental
Previous descriptions: “boatloads of australian and NZ hops” & "pineapple, tangerine, and orange rind"
More recently: australian & north american (no mention of NZ)

Obviously Galaxy (TH descriptors: pineapple, grapefruit, grapefruit pith, orange)
probably Amarillo (TH descriptors: peach, tangerine, apricot, orange, pineapple)
????:
Cashmere: lemon lime melon
Motueka: lemon lime
Enigma:
Vic Secret: (TH descriptors: mango), but also an earthier Galaxy
Cascade
Simcoe: (TH descriptor with Galaxy:"lemon lime, pineapple, passion fruit, earthy tropicality"), (TH descriptor with Amarillo: "Apricot, peach, grapefruit, juicy tangerine.")

Assuming 3 hops: Galaxy, Amarillo, Simcoe.

Three more tidbits to add here:
1. "three hops in Green, Galaxy is 80% (currently)"
https://twitter.com/treehousenate/status/726145174749990912
2. "it's definitely possible. Have a lot of Amarillo on contract but allocated as an accent hop in many other beers. I love it."
3. "I don't really care for El Dorado. Simcoe & Amarillo is nice."
https://twitter.com/treehousenate/status/856851098933637120

To me really points to Galaxy, Amarillo, Simcoe.

 

[couchsending]

I’ve never gotten Pineapple from Galaxy. Denali for sure, Vic Secret, sometimes El Dorado. Supposedly Zythos is incredibly Pineapple forward. I’ve never used it but I was actually given a few pounds of it recently. Might have to give it a go.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Vic Secret gives me the over ripe crushed pineapple vibe pretty well. Interesting note, I let a half glass of galaxy get warm over an hour and it ended up being an onion/garlic bomb

 

[Jmash]

Interesting note, I let a half glass of galaxy get warm over an hour and it ended up being an onion/garlic bomb

Oooh that sounds delish ha

 

[TheHairyHop]

Maybe I'm a pessimist, but the descriptors probably won't get you anywhere unless you think they cribbed them from the product sheet. Anyone can spew out a series of fruit related adjectives and people will just nod and smile

 

[melville]

Maybe I'm a pessimist, but the descriptors probably won't get you anywhere unless you think they cribbed them from the product sheet. Anyone can spew out a series of fruit related adjectives and people will just nod and smile

Hmmm... I think you can somewhat reliably cross reference them across the curiosity series, especially galaxy, citra, Amarillo, and Simcoe, where they're used, listed, and described more than once.

 

[melville]

Juice Machine a bit easier and consistent with their own descriptions (minus "pineapple").
"The use of Magnum, Columbus, Amarillo, Citra, and Galaxy creates perhaps our most complex drink with unapologetic flavors of tangerine, mango, lime, papaya, and grapefruit with waves of dankness"

 

[StinkyBeer]

Loving the detective work Melville!

I’ve not used Amarillo much at all. How does it come across? Can it hold its own against the likes of Citra, Galaxy and Columbus? Those 3 are pungent.

 

[Dog House Brew]

Amarillo to me, is no where near as pungent as those 3. Amarillo is grapefruit and slightly lemon. I only use it as a finish hop and dry hop. I do think it pairs well with Citra. I’ve not used it with Galaxy.

 

[melville]

Loving the detective work Melville!

I’ve not used Amarillo much at all. How does it come across? Can it hold its own against the likes of Citra, Galaxy and Columbus? Those 3 are pungent.

Not as "pungent" as those three, but more than others IMO. I've used it solo a couple of times and frequently as an addition in other brews. Orange that transitions to peach and citrus is how I find it, but in a different way than Idaho 7 (orange that transitions to tea).

Their all Amarillo curiosity beers seem to be highly regarded.

In the case of Green and Julius, if we assume that Julius follows a similar path as Green (both previously single hop beers, but now three hops, and where Galaxy is still 80%, and so likely Citra is some similar high percentage of Julius) then Amarillo is truly just an accent hop, again like I'm speculating with Green, possibly with Simcoe.

Note this description of Curiosity 34:
Warrior, Simcoe, Amarillo, Citra, and Columbus hops, it exhibits flavors and aromas of papaya, pineapple, sweet orange, and a hint of honeydew melon.

Reviews point out the earthiness/weed/dankness of columbus, so subtract that and you have something that sounds a lot like Julius.

 

[melville]

I used to think both were Citra/Galaxy, Amarillo, and Columbus — but now that I've used Columbus more, I don't find that earthiness in Julius and Green. Don't know what you guys get. Just looking at my notes about Green and hop possibilities — Galaxy, Cashmere, and Vic Secret sounds like a good beer (if Cashmere brings some lemon lime, coconut, tropical fruit as claimed — I've never used it).

 

[melville]

I don't know why I have cascade stuck in my head (if you can't tell — I've been trying to get a hop order together the past few days), but as I posted above Haze seems straightforward given Tree House's previous language:

"a ton of peach on the nose, with complimentary notes of orange and passionfruit. The flavor is similar with a blast of citrus fruit" & "peach quickly followed by a bounty of tropical fruit" & "We smell a ton of orange on the nose, with complimentary notes of peach and passionfruit. The flavor is similar with a blast of citrus fruit & orange quickly followed by spicy grapefruit, and earthy dankness"

You see passion fruit, you know Citra. You see peach/orange, it seems likely Amarillo. Earth dankness equals Columbus. Spicy grapefruit ... Cascade or Chinook. I've never used Cascade, but I have used Chinook which also bends Pine (ala Sap). Don't have Pine down in my notes for Haze.

Also, I love Haze.

 

[Jmash]

Have you tried alter ego or doppleganger Melville?
They taste similar and one of them is billed as amarillo.
I like them even better than julius/haze/green.
When I think Columbus I think Trillium

 

[melville]

Have you tried alter ego or doppleganger Melville?
They taste similar and one of them is billed as amarillo.
I like them even better than julius/haze/green.
When I think Columbus I think Trillium

I've had them both, but... I'm not a big Mosaic fan, so those aren't my faves. True on Trillium, I don't get that Columbus quality in TH like you do in Trillium.

 

[Sbe2]

I've had them both, but... I'm not a big Mosaic fan, so those aren't my faves. True on Trillium, I don't get that Columbus quality in TH like you do in Trillium.

Since you are on a TH kick, I just brewed an attempt at Sap. I don't use hopshot so FWH Columbus, then used Chinook and Simcoe. Been brewing juice bombs and wanted to try my luck on pine.

I have never had Sap before, so I am going on what's been described on the internets

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I'm in week 3 in the serving keg of my 80-10-10 batch and the flavor is definitely changing to more bubblegummy than clovey. Still too much for a Julius clone but everyone who tastes it likes it.
I think next batch needs amarillo. I love Doppleganger maybe better than Julius

I think I'm a little bit behind you but I'm starting to see the same thing. The clove is fading and there is definitely some bubblegum coming out. Not sure if it was there the whole time and the clove backing off is just bringing it out more. It's also getting super orange-citrusy, which I find enhances the juice effect.

One other thing I notice is that there is VERY little residual sweetness. I went into the keg at 1.018, and the beer still has a very full mouthfeel. Haven't taken a gravity since kegging. But I feel like even at kegging time it was not high in residual sweetness. Maybe I need some L10 in my next attempt.

 

[thehaze]

I have a question for those which have used CaraPils ( Weyermann Carafoam in the US ) at more than 10%:

Do you feel like it helped the final product? Would you use it in other styles? Would CaraPils work at say 20% in a grain bill for NEIPAs?

 

[couchsending]

I think I'm a little bit behind you but I'm starting to see the same thing. The clove is fading and there is definitely some bubblegum coming out. Not sure if it was there the whole time and the clove backing off is just bringing it out more. It's also getting super orange-citrusy, which I find enhances the juice effect.

One other thing I notice is that there is VERY little residual sweetness. I went into the keg at 1.018, and the beer still has a very full mouthfeel. Haven't taken a gravity since kegging. But I feel like even at kegging time it was not high in residual sweetness. Maybe I need some L10 in my next attempt.

The acidity of the S-04 would help to balance out that high gravity so it’s not as sweet. 1318 finishing that high would be perceived as a lot sweeter.