Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[Clyde McCoy]

It’s very interesting to me that the 3 other strains are metabolizing the dye. I could never find much info on WLN agar mechanics, but Chad Yackobson suggested Wit yeast were among Sacc spp that could do this, don’t know if that’s helpful or not though

I tested dozens and dozens of small dark and medium green colonies and they were always S-04 which is why I've started to ignore them and focus on the others. Always good to include a few though to be sure.

Looking back at your gels it doesn't seem like S-04 would be confused with anything else.

 

[lilbova3]

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These strains are likely WB-06 and T-58 (as identified by @isomerization), but I’ll say these are unconfirmed because the profiles aren’t an exact match and may require a bit of PCR optimization to say more conclusively.

I’m again going to quote Chris White (White Labs) on mixed-strain fermentations:

“When yeast is pitched into beer, it starts to grow, entering into a log phase of growth after a few hours. This is when the bulk of the flavor compounds are produced. 12-36 hours into the fermentation. Therefore, if your goal is flavor, you need to add the multiple strains early on, preferably together. Note that if you just want another strain for bottling, or to complete attenuation, go ahead and add later. Very little flavor contribution happens here, unless the beer undergoes prolonged ageing”

You'll notice that on some of the WLN plates it looks like S-04 (small green colonies) is 99+% of the plate.

I'm pretty near my limit on the amount of time I can spend on this, but because the composition of yeast in the can will change over time (all beers above are typically analyzed at 1-2 months old) I am willing to test a few very fresh cans (ideally <10 days), PM me if you can mail. These will be the most indicative of the ratio of S-04 to everything else at the time of canning.

How long is prolonged aging I wonder? I’ve mentioned before that after some age all their beers taste the same to me. Which leads me to what White said about ‘very little flavor contribution happens here unless prolonged aging’. Haven’t had a fresh TH in awhile.

 

[isomerization]

I tested dozens and dozens of small dark and medium green colonies and they were always S-04 which is why I've started to ignore them and focus on the others. Always good to include a few though to be sure.

Looking back at your gels it doesn't seem like S-04 would be confused with anything else.

yeah I think it’s clear that S-04 (the most abundant and closest banding match) is their primary yeast strain. I’m 75% convinced on T-58, but the WB-06 just doesn’t fit imo. Something close, or perhaps a banked strain from serial passaging of WB-06 (can you do that with a dry yeast)?

 

[brewpharm Hill]

@Clyde McCoy your work is very appreciated here! Same goes for @isomerization. None of this would be possible with out lab savvy gents such as yourselves.

Considering the dominant flavors that come from T58 and Wb06 (assuming this is even being used) I feel like they're either used in seriously small percentages compared to s04 OR they're used post s04 pitching but pre 72 hr mark (Chris White states that there is pretty much no flavor contribution after that point). My grainfather is down right now due to the plug melting but once I have it replaced I will definitely be going back to experimenting with the blend as well as s04 on its own. Hoping to nail down some different temps and ratios

 

[beervoid]

@Clyde McCoy your work is very appreciated here! Same goes for @isomerization. None of this would be possible with out lab savvy gents such as yourselves.

Considering the dominant flavors that come from T58 and Wb06 (assuming this is even being used) I feel like they're either used in seriously small percentages compared to s04 OR they're used post s04 pitching but pre 72 hr mark (Chris White states that there is pretty much no flavor contribution after that point). My grainfather is down right now due to the plug melting but once I have it replaced I will definitely be going back to experimenting with the blend as well as s04 on its own. Hoping to nail down some different temps and ratios

Pitch T58 a day later in order to control the esters?

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Pitch T58 a day later in order to control the esters?

Yeah roughly. I'm pretty sure someone else has tried staggered pitching in this thread and they didn't really like the results so I need to go back and see how this person tried it and adjust from there. The book "Yeast" goes into a little more detail but the general idea you'll see below. My understanding is that within the first few days is when the flavor compounds are formed and that the further away from initial yeast pitch, subsequent pitches will have less flavor contribution.

An example they used in the book was that some breweries pitch their house strain which is a poor flocculator and then pitch a strong floccing yeast outside of that flavor making window to get the benefit of flocculation without flavor contribution.

https://www.whitelabs.com/beer/using-multiple-yeast-strains

"Q: Do I add the strains in the beginning or staggered?

A: Depends what you want. When yeast is pitched into beer, it starts to grow, entering into a log phase of growth after a few hours. This is when the bulk of the flavor compounds are produced. 12-36 hours into the fermentation. "

 

[mcoman]

Thanks @Clyde McCoy, this is great information. Do you have the canned date vs the date these were plated? If I remember correctly when you tested the older can of very green before the WLN agag you found mostly T-58, vs this newer can has mostly S-04. Would this suggest that over time T-58 begins to take over?

I find it interesting that JJJuliusss appears to have more a higher concentration of of not S-04 yeast compared to Julius. If these were canned and plated after similar amounts of time, than perhaps this means that as hop content goes up they introduce more non S-04 yeast.

 

[isomerization]

I would strongly recommend everyone avoid trying to draw conclusions from single cans. In order to be properly powered, @Clyde McCoy would need to evaluate multiple cans, preferably from throughout the canning process. I could be wrong, but that’s my thought process.

Question I’ve been thinking on lately, if another yeast is added after the primary strain has started fermenting (72 hr in, during dry hop, conditioning, etc), then how much replication will occur? I was under the impression that it would be very little. How does a strain then take over across time? Yeast shouldn’t be growing in a can right?

 

[Clyde McCoy]

I would strongly recommend everyone avoid trying to draw conclusions from single cans. In order to be properly powered, @Clyde McCoy would need to evaluate multiple cans, preferably from throughout the canning process. I could be wrong, but that’s my thought process.

Question I’ve been thinking on lately, if another yeast is added after the primary strain has started fermenting (72 hr in, during dry hop, conditioning, etc), then how much replication will occur? I was under the impression that it would be very little. How does a strain then take over across time? Yeast shouldn’t be growing in a can right?

You can see the WLN plates above from 4 TH beers, so I think that counts as multiple? Fully agree that the most informative in terms of strain ratios will be the youngest cans.

@mcoman good questions and I will have to look at the dates on the cans and on the plates. I don't recall any big difference in can age but I could be wrong. I just don't know how the strains change over time in the can.

I think S-04 + T-58 is a good starting point.

 

[isomerization]

You can see the WLN plates above from 4 TH beers, so I think that counts as multiple? Fully agree that the most informative in terms of strain ratios will be the youngest cans.

@mcoman good questions and I will have to look at the dates on the cans and on the plates. I don't recall any big difference in can age but I could be wrong. I just don't know how the strains change over time in the can.

I think S-04 + T-58 is a good starting point.

Sorry, to clarify, I meant from the same beer. As in we can’t make conclusions about what is in Julius verses Green.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

Sorry, to clarify, I meant from the same beer. As in we can’t make conclusions about what is in Julius verses Green.

I'll test those ~12 beige colonies on the Very Green plate and see if they're all T-58 (which I suspect they are)

 

[isomerization]

I'll test those ~12 beige colonies on the Very Green plate and see if they're all T-58 (which I suspect they are)

Im not sure if you’re serious or jacking with me, but I meant test 4 different cans of Green, before making the conclusion that Green has a higher % of T-58 than other TH beers.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

Im not sure if you’re serious or jacking with me, but I meant test 4 different cans of Green, before making the conclusion that Green has a higher % of T-58 than other TH beers.

yep

 

[troxerX]

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Hey sorry! Didn’t see the post from before. I guess in the end I really don’t. I just go by recommended pitching rates in beersmith then pitch less than that. For this batch 137g was recommended. I pitched 90g. No rhyme or reason why. Again, sorry about no responding before

Thanks for the info, by the way, I wasn’t actually picking on you for not responding lol I was just stating my Q didn’t get any response before. Appreciate your feedback though. It does seem though that when peeps are referring to “underpitching” without knowing really what’s in the packet, kinda makes it difficult eh? I imagine beersmith uses Fermentis values of 6B cells per gram as beersmith typically uses manufacturers recommendations.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

I know some people are apprehensive about sharing their experiments and results, but that is what this whole thread is about. Want to try blending post fermentation? knock yourself out. Pitching yeast blends etc? Go ahead. But sharing results is the only way to make progress. If you want to conduct experiments and then hold your findings hostage forcing others to try your experiments then we collectively as a group will get no where. Having a summary of what has been tried would be a good place to start....

 

[EstebanPro86]

I’m so intrigued that Monkish uses 71b. I don’t even know where to begin with the questions for that. Is that first colony S33?

FWIW I’m pretty sure Monkish uses LAIII

 

[RTE]

Not completely on topic, but has anyone tried Equilibrium? They are distributing now and I swear the beers Fluctuation and Particle Physics both have a very Tree House-y biotransformation/ester taste. I could be delusional because I'm too lazy to make the drive to TH but these are the first beers I've tasted that somewhat have a TH house yeast taste to them. Fluctuation reminds a lot of Haze (but maybe better...). Maybe it'd be worthwhile to test of can of Eq and see if there is any interesting yeast floating in there? They ship directly PA OH DC NH VT VA and ND.

 

[troxerX]

I know some people are apprehensive about sharing their experiments and results, but that is what this whole thread is about. Want to try blending post fermentation? knock yourself out. Pitching yeast blends etc? Go ahead. But sharing results is the only way to make progress. If you want to conduct experiments and then hold your findings hostage forcing others to try your experiments then we collectively as a group will get no where. Having a summary of what has been tried would be a good place to start....

LOL just teasing you guys, not holding anyone hostage LOL, I can’t share results right now as I’m still working towards them!, blending batches takes time... again - this may not be the solution after all but we have to try something different

Batch 2 with T-58

 

[Clyde McCoy]

Not completely on topic, but has anyone tried Equilibrium? They are distributing now and I swear the beers Fluctuation and Particle Physics both have a very Tree House-y biotransformation/ester taste. I could be delusional because I'm too lazy to make the drive to TH but these are the first beers I've tasted that somewhat have a TH house yeast taste to them. Fluctuation reminds a lot of Haze (but maybe better...). Maybe it'd be worthwhile to test of can of Eq and see if there is any interesting yeast floating in there? They ship directly PA OH DC NH VT VA and ND.

I have a can of EQ "Infinite Skills Create Miracles" that I will test at some point soon

 

[troxerX]

Fair enough, I'll def be joining. Been experimenting with copitching but havent had any cutting edge results.
I think we also need to focus more on how to retain esters in our worts. They are super volatile. I recently read and article that belgium brewers take the beer off the yeast as soon as possible in order to retain yeast esters as old yeasts absorb them. I wonder how this ties in with conditioning.
Especially considering these beers have tons of hops and enzymes that cause hop creep it seems tricky to get the beer off the yeast early as to prevent diacetyl from forming. Conditioning the beer with another yeast seems to me the answer to take care of the hop creep problem.
Unless they cheat and use ALDC

"One wort order" its a good one, made me laugh.

Found this on esters (probably posted in this thread already

“Ester levels in the styles that require them can be more easily controlled by increasing the fermentation temperature or by selecting a yeast strain known for higher ester production. One method of increasing ester levels that is not appropriate is depriving yeast of oxygen in the initial aerobic stage of fermentation” also “Late aeration can actually result in lower ester levels in the finished beer”.

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/lifeofayeast

I recall reading another site earlier (can’t find it now) where they recommended not worrying about trying to retain the esters but instead putting all efforts to ensure they were overproduced so that even with the volatile losses you still had a good amount remaining in suspension. This same place, if I’m not mistaken also mentioned that a higher gravity also helped retain more esters. The higher gravity part seems logical but not sure about the rest since some esters when exceeding their threshold can become a defect (solvent like taste) and this approach of overproducing seems to be difficult to measure if not impossible w/o expensive lab equipment (any mistake could ruin your brew)

 

[couchsending]

I bought some cans of EQ when I was in Minnesota in early July. One 4 pack (the 4.8% pale ale) was quite tasty, the rest of them were straight up trash. Two of the brands were incredibly oxidized and the other one tasted like rotting melons. Supposedly this rotting melon thing is something a lot of their beers have as of late.

I was so stoked to try them and couldn’t have been more disappointed. Literally one of the worst beer purchases I’ve made in a while. Supposedly they’ve had some major QC issues as of late?? I would be very hesitant to buy their stuff if I saw it again. Wouldn’t surprise me if they’re sending stuff out to far off markets that they know has QC issues.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

How does a strain then take over across time? Yeast shouldn’t be growing in a can right?

Flip the question - you could be seeing differential death, different strains dying quicker or slower after packaging. So it's not so much one strain taking over as the other strain failing to survive.

 

[TBryerton]

Not completely on topic, but has anyone tried Equilibrium? They are distributing now and I swear the beers Fluctuation and Particle Physics both have a very Tree House-y biotransformation/ester taste. I could be delusional because I'm too lazy to make the drive to TH but these are the first beers I've tasted that somewhat have a TH house yeast taste to them. Fluctuation reminds a lot of Haze (but maybe better...). Maybe it'd be worthwhile to test of can of Eq and see if there is any interesting yeast floating in there? They ship directly PA OH DC NH VT VA and ND.

I liked their earlier beers but a lot of their later stuff became candy sweet. I wasnt a fan and gave up on their beers but I might have to revisit. I never got TH from them back then - I did get esters I associate w/LAIII. Not sure if they use that yeast or not but Im guessing they do in at least some beers.

 

[EstebanPro86]

I bought some cans of EQ when I was in Minnesota in early July. One 4 pack (the 4.8% pale ale) was quite tasty, the rest of them were straight up trash. Two of the brands were incredibly oxidized and the other one tasted like rotting melons. Supposedly this rotting melon thing is something a lot of their beers have as of late.

I was so stoked to try them and couldn’t have been more disappointed. Literally one of the worst beer purchases I’ve made in a while. Supposedly they’ve had some major QC issues as of late?? I would be very hesitant to buy their stuff if I saw it again. Wouldn’t surprise me if they’re sending stuff out to far off markets that they know has QC issues.

So many of their cans have been oxidized lately. Very disappointing

 

[beervoid]

So many of their cans have been oxidized lately. Very disappointing

Last can I had from them I poured, the rotten veggie fruit taste was too much

 

[chieftain]

Last can I had from them I poured, the rotten veggie fruit taste was too much

Can I ask how recent that was? Cause I'm driving through their neck of the woods this weekend, from out of state, and scheduled to pick up a case.

 

[RTE]

There’s a lot of talk on beeradvocate about QA issues at EQ and beer not holding up over time. It sounds like the beers fall off over time. They start with a characteristic “EQ Juice” taste, which is what I keyed in on and then fall off to meh or drain pour worthy (rotting fruit). Also sounds like some cans show up half exploded. I suspect the latter is due to shipping issues. Not that surprising.

I’ve had three beers recently from them and all have been enjoyable but to be safe I better go have one now before they fall off. Personally I’d pick something canned recently, drink it fresh and keep it cold. Not ideal but I wouldn’t skip over something I’m keen on based on Internet forums

https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/equilibrium-brewery-2020.631389/page-4

 

[beervoid]

Can I ask how recent that was? Cause I'm driving through their neck of the woods this weekend, from out of state, and scheduled to pick up a case.

A couple of months ago, I think it was 2 weeks old. I'm really fascinated by this phenomenon. I've picked it up in quiet some European IPA's as well.
I'm curious what they are doing process wise to get this sort of flavor. It reminds me a bit of when I dry hopped a KVEIK IPA at 35c or so. Perhaps it forms if the cans reach a certain high temp?

 

[NJGeorge]

Not completely on topic, but has anyone tried Equilibrium? They are distributing now and I swear the beers Fluctuation and Particle Physics both have a very Tree House-y biotransformation/ester taste. I could be delusional because I'm too lazy to make the drive to TH but these are the first beers I've tasted that somewhat have a TH house yeast taste to them. Fluctuation reminds a lot of Haze (but maybe better...). Maybe it'd be worthwhile to test of can of Eq and see if there is any interesting yeast floating in there? They ship directly PA OH DC NH VT VA and ND.

I’ve been saying this for a long time! Nate has even visited them along time ago. Pic on insta. They are similar but not exact. A starter I made with dregs had very strong banana. Has any EQ been tested? If not, let me know and I’ll send a can. Edit- didn’t see @Clyde McCoy has a can. If you need a new one let me know.