Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

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beervoid

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So based on cross referencing the @suregork , Gallone et all, and that Thiol research the yeasts that I can decipher that medium or above thiol releasing capabilities are:

WLP410
WLp550
WLP540
Wyeast 1028

Be066 is in the Vermont Ale area as well but the Suregork tree and Gallone one is kinda different in that area so I’m not really sure.
Yes and nr 1 is some german yeast.
Nr 2 wlp037 yorkshire and nr 3 wlp023 burton ale
@couchsending I thought you already gave wlp540 a shot?
 

couchsending

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Yes and nr 1 is some german yeast.
Nr 2 wlp037 yorkshire and nr 3 wlp023 burton ale
@couchsending I thought you already gave wlp540 a shot?
I gave the wyeast version of 540 a shot. But based on that chart who knows if theWyeast version is BE089. Its next to 079 (540) and usually that’s a different yeast lab’s version of the same strain...

Thats what I found really interesting. Yeasts that were genetically very similar to each other seemingly having completely different thiol releasing capabilities.
 

beervoid

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I gave the wyeast version of 540 a shot. But based on that chart who knows if theWyeast version is BE089. Its next to 079 (540) and usually that’s a different yeast lab’s version of the same strain...

Thats what I found really interesting. Yeasts that were genetically very similar to each other seemingly having completely different thiol releasing capabilities.
That is fascinating indeed. I will pull the trigger and get some wlp540 and wlp644 to play with.
I'm done experimenting with s04 and the other dry yeasts personally. None of them give me bright juicy flavors. La3 was always preferred by a long shot, I really wonder now how much thiols la3 releases. I guess it would be fair to associate the signature neipa juice with mainly thiols.
 

couchsending

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That is fascinating indeed. I will pull the trigger and get some wlp540 and wlp644 to play with.
I'm done experimenting with s04 and the other dry yeasts personally. None of them give me bright juicy flavors. La3 was always preferred by a long shot, I really wonder now how much thiols la3 releases. I guess it would be fair to associate the signature neipa juice with mainly thiols.
Personally I think LAIII tends to trample hops a bit more than VT Ale. It contributes some nice fruity esters when fermented warm but I think Conan/VT lets hops shine much more. It tends to convert hop compounds into flavors/aromas that are more fruit forward than say Chico but it is similar in that it doesn’t mask hops at all.

I’ve never used wlp037 but it seems like a very odd yeast. Genetically it’s found in the POF+ and generally STA1 area of the yeast family tree. Yet White Labs says nothing about it being either of those. Which I don’t find hard to believe... Yet every review mentions clove/banana and a lot mention over attenuation.

Never used 023 either. That one seems more interesting to me than 037. Might give that one a whirl.
 

beervoid

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Personally I think LAIII tends to trample hops a bit more than VT Ale. It contributes some nice fruity esters when fermented warm but I think Conan/VT lets hops shine much more. It tends to convert hop compounds into flavors/aromas that are more fruit forward than say Chico but it is similar in that it doesn’t mask hops at all.

I’ve never used wlp037 but it seems like a very odd yeast. Genetically it’s found in the POF+ and generally STA1 area of the yeast family tree. Yet White Labs says nothing about it being either of those. Which I don’t find hard to believe... Yet every review mentions clove/banana and a lot mention over attenuation.

Never used 023 either. That one seems more interesting to me than 037. Might give that one a whirl.
LA3 can be bad fruity or good fruity, not sure what influences this, I think fermenting a bit colder helps get more hop expression. Love vermont too, i go back and forth between them all the time.
 

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I couldn't disagree more with getting "bright and juicy" flavors from LAIII. It softens everything up, sometimes throwing vanilla-like flavors, and even S-04 let's hops shine a bit more.

I've done Essex, Burton, Bedford, and Thames Valley. Out of those, I personally like Burton a good amount, but it's not really reminiscent of TH.
 

beervoid

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I couldn't disagree more with getting "bright and juicy" flavors from LAIII. It softens everything up, sometimes throwing vanilla-like flavors, and even S-04 let's hops shine a bit more.

I've done Essex, Burton, Bedford, and Thames Valley. Out of those, I personally like Burton a good amount, but it's not really reminiscent of TH.
Did you use alot of hops hotside?
Im wondering if the thiol releasing works mostly on hops on the hotside. We know Tree House uses quiet alot hotside.
@couchsending that Juice Project you drank, does it have the Tree House character?
 

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My standard is 1.3 oz/gal hot side. I know some hops can provide more or less compounds that survive/get created in hot wort. Scott Janish has some info on that. I typically do Bravo, Chinook, Simcoe, Azacca, or Idaho 7 on hot side.
 
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beervoid

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My standard is 1.3 oz/gal hot side. I know some beers can provide more or less compounds that survive/get created in hot wort. Scott Janish has some info on that. I typically do Bravo, Chinook, Simcoe, Azacca, or Idaho 7 on hot side.
Yes thiols can go up on the hotside. 1.3oz per gallon is a lot. Don't you get too much bitterness? What kind of timing are we talking?
If I whirlpool 6oz for a 5 gallon batch I feel there is too much lingering bitterness in the way for the fruits to come out.
Even with lowered wort PH and wp Temps.
 

TheHairyHop

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For sure not too much bitterness. I wait until the wort drops to 170, and then I dump the hops in. I used to wait 30 minutes, but now I do 15 max. I'm pretty sure everything that's going to be extracted has already done so in the first 5 minutes. I mean, I can't think of any high surface area hot steep that takes more than 10 minutes
 

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Did you use alot of hops hotside?
Im wondering if the thiol releasing works mostly on hops on the hotside. We know Tree House uses quiet alot hotside.
@couchsending that Juice Project you drank, does it have the Tree House character?
Not to answer for Couchsending, but yes, the 3 Juice Project beers I’ve had all have the ‘house yeast’ flavor.
 

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I couldn't disagree more with getting "bright and juicy" flavors from LAIII. It softens everything up, sometimes throwing vanilla-like flavors, and even S-04 let's hops shine a bit more.
Sounds like you're seeing the effect of biotransformation - AIUI LAIII is similar to T-58, which produces a more complex (good!) mix of compounds derived from hops, but the inefficiency of the process means it loses maybe 20% of the "volume" of hop flavour.

Personally I'd take that.

As for the vanilla, vanillin is a close relative of the ferulic acid that "phenolic" yeasts can process into clove flavours via the POF pathway. Some bacteria can convert it in two steps using a feruloyl-CoA synthetase and feruloyl-CoA hydratase/aldolase, but the vanilla orchid has an enzyme that can do it in one step.

So if vanilla flavours are a problem for you from LAIII or its derivatives like Lallemand Verdant, then I suggest reducing the amount of ferulic acid in your wort, either by avoiding anything that looks like a ferulic rest, and/or reducing the amount of wheat and maize in your grist.
 

TheHairyHop

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Sounds like you're seeing the effect of biotransformation - AIUI LAIII is similar to T-58, which produces a more complex (good!) mix of compounds derived from hops, but the inefficiency of the process means it loses maybe 20% of the "volume" of hop flavour.

Personally I'd take that.

As for the vanilla, vanillin is a close relative of the ferulic acid that "phenolic" yeasts can process into clove flavours via the POF pathway. Some bacteria can convert it in two steps using a feruloyl-CoA synthetase and feruloyl-CoA hydratase/aldolase, but the vanilla orchid has an enzyme that can do it in one step.

So if vanilla flavours are a problem for you from LAIII or its derivatives like Lallemand Verdant, then I suggest reducing the amount of ferulic acid in your wort, either by avoiding anything that looks like a ferulic rest, and/or reducing the amount of wheat and maize in your grist.
I don't use corn or wheat.
There's a reason that the most prominent IPA breweries do not use LAIII. It tramples the hops. I think it makes a perfectly fine IPA, but it's more "second wave" imitation hazy IPA than the more classic NEIPAs. Too high FG and too many rich esters. I honestly haven't heard anyone thinking that LAIII isn't "too much" in a while
 

beervoid

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I don't use corn or wheat.
There's a reason that the most prominent IPA breweries do not use LAIII. It tramples the hops. I think it makes a perfectly fine IPA, but it's more "second wave" imitation hazy IPA than the more classic NEIPAs. Too high FG and too many rich esters. I honestly haven't heard anyone thinking that LAIII isn't "too much" in a while
Which yeast do you prefer? Besides conan.
 

TheHairyHop

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Which yeast do you prefer? Besides conan.
First, apologies if the reply came off as curt. I probably punched it out on my phone during a too quick break from the lab.
Secondly, if anyone can let me know the secret to getting good flavor out of Conan, I'd love to hear it. It's always just been fairly neutral for me.
With regards to yeast, I'll state my perception/preference first. I kind of lean towards some sentiments of Couchsending, where it's best to let the hops shine. I don't know what's exactly up with TH (I guess kind of obviously. If I knew, I would let EVERYONE know), as I can taste some esters, but I don't consider it an ester bomb. I also don't taste any phenols whatsoever, which has always lead me to be dubious about the WB-06 and even T-58. I tend to not repeat a brew. I split 7 gallons into two 3.5 gallons in order to do some experiments to learn and keep things interesting. So, with that being said, I almost intentionally don't have a specific preference. I've had great results with Bedford, and I used Burton ale for a string of brews because I liked it so much. Unfortunately, my experiment with Essex was a failure, because my water chemistry was whack from my new home's well. I recently did Imperial's House and Independence, and both of them were great as well. Cloudburst, which makes some of the dang best IPAs in the world IMO, had a pretty good interview where they espoused keeping a cleaner fermentation profile (Cloudburst’s Essential, Quintessential Northwest IPAs — Beervana [if anyone knows which yeast they use, please let me know!]) I originally hated S-04, but ever since I've been adjusting my mash and boil pH, I don't get that weird tartness from it. I would say it's become my "control" yeast. So yea, sorry for the long winded reply. I just really, really don't get 1318, and that's from years of loving it. I just sort of had my last batch with it and thought that it was too full, too dominant, and kind of missing the point of delivering a hop bomb.
P.S. Second apologies for the relative diversion of the thread's topic.
 

beervoid

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First, apologies if the reply came off as curt. I probably punched it out on my phone during a too quick break from the lab.
Secondly, if anyone can let me know the secret to getting good flavor out of Conan, I'd love to hear it. It's always just been fairly neutral for me.
With regards to yeast, I'll state my perception/preference first. I kind of lean towards some sentiments of Couchsending, where it's best to let the hops shine. I don't know what's exactly up with TH (I guess kind of obviously. If I knew, I would let EVERYONE know), as I can taste some esters, but I don't consider it an ester bomb. I also don't taste any phenols whatsoever, which has always lead me to be dubious about the WB-06 and even T-58. I tend to not repeat a brew. I split 7 gallons into two 3.5 gallons in order to do some experiments to learn and keep things interesting. So, with that being said, I almost intentionally don't have a specific preference. I've had great results with Bedford, and I used Burton ale for a string of brews because I liked it so much. Unfortunately, my experiment with Essex was a failure, because my water chemistry was whack from my new home's well. I recently did Imperial's House and Independence, and both of them were great as well. Cloudburst, which makes some of the dang best IPAs in the world IMO, had a pretty good interview where they espoused keeping a cleaner fermentation profile (Cloudburst’s Essential, Quintessential Northwest IPAs — Beervana [if anyone knows which yeast they use, please let me know!]) I originally hated S-04, but ever since I've been adjusting my mash and boil pH, I don't get that weird tartness from it. I would say it's become my "control" yeast. So yea, sorry for the long winded reply. I just really, really don't get 1318, and that's from years of loving it. I just sort of had my last batch with it and thought that it was too full, too dominant, and kind of missing the point of delivering a hop bomb.
P.S. Second apologies for the relative diversion of the thread's topic.
No worries I understand where you are coming from. There are many example brews where I didnt like it either but it is a solid juice yeast that can enhance juicyness tropical brightness. Trillium, Other Half supposedly use it. The tropical fruit juice I get out of I havent really gotten that with a different yeast yet, im inclined to think it has something to do with the thiol releasing properties, sadly we dont have data on it but I will be testing those mentioned before to see if I can get a similar experience as with la3. You said you liked Burton?
How does that compare to la3?
If you ferment la3 lower (I went as low as 13c at peak fermentation, temp outside the fermenter) it does let the hops speak more and a softcrash before dh helps as well.
Cheerz
 

TheHairyHop

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No worries I understand where you are coming from. There are many example brews where I didnt like it either but it is a solid juice yeast that can enhance juicyness tropical brightness. Trillium, Other Half supposedly use it. The tropical fruit juice I get out of I havent really gotten that with a different yeast yet, im inclined to think it has something to do with the thiol releasing properties, sadly we dont have data on it but I will be testing those mentioned before to see if I can get a similar experience as with la3. You said you liked Burton?
How does that compare to la3?
If you fermenr la3 lower it does let the hops speak more and a softcrash before dh helps as well.
Cheerz
I think that Burton is incredibly underrated. You make a good point there at the end though. A lot of it is process related. Maybe what I was doing was really pumping out the rich, overpowering esters of LAIII. I would have hoped something would have come out resembling TH by now after all my experiments though, if their beers are indeed ester forward, and it seems that I can really coax esters out of some yeast. I did pick up a packet of 1028, and I'm really interested to see how that goes.
As a side note, I haven't had a great beer from Trillium in years. I was really afraid that TH was going to go the same direction after their move. It's been nice to see them bounce back from those initial Charlton beers. Man, was that disappointing
 

beervoid

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I think that Burton is incredibly underrated. You make a good point there at the end though. A lot of it is process related. Maybe what I was doing was really pumping out the rich, overpowering esters of LAIII. I would have hoped something would have come out resembling TH by now after all my experiments though, if their beers are indeed ester forward, and it seems that I can really coax esters out of some yeast. I did pick up a packet of 1028, and I'm really interested to see how that goes.
As a side note, I haven't had a great beer from Trillium in years. I was really afraid that TH was going to go the same direction after their move. It's been nice to see them bounce back from those initial Charlton beers. Man, was that disappointing
The fact that their quality went down must tell us that process plays a huge part of getting the esters right. Speculating why there was a quality drop? Different water? Different size tanks?
Yeast behaved differently?

How long till the new brewery was on par?
 

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I just assumed it was too much DO, but yea, it could have been proper fermentation. I don't know how long it took. I used to live in New England, but I'm in Colorado now. Someone else will have a better answer to that
 

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I tend to agree with @TheHairyHop on LAIII. I have been using LAIII to dial in my NEIPA recipe, and now that have my water chemistry, grain bill, hop schedule, and fermentation to where I want them I tend to think LAIII is "too much". When comparing to the tree house profile LAIII it too sweet, too juicy and it seems to mute hop flavors. LAII still makes a great beer but to me it tastes nothing like the tree house profile. I might try one more batch with LAIII with a lower mash and fermentation temp to see where that gets me, but I am also very interested in giving S-04 and Burton a try.
 
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For those that find LAIII too much, have you tried Verdant from Lallemand?

Used it so far in a NE IPA and a coffee stout and have been very pleased. Seems to attenuate a few % points more than LAIII with not as much sweetness (not always correlated with FG). Doing another NE IPA right now.

Love that I can use a single dry yeast packet and skip the starter/yeast ranching steps. Under $4 at Ritebrew:
 

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I brewed a ton of batches with Imperial Juice (LAIII from them) and I had the best results and hop expression with cooler fermentation temps and a healthy yeast pitch with 1L starter. It still had LAIII qualities but more restrained. A lot of people try to push the envelope with LAIII to get those esters and it is not necessary in my opinion (if you're going for a more traditional NEIPA). If you want a Haze Bro,/juice bomb like OH, trillium, sloop, weldworks etc then using LAIII at like 68 or higher will get you closer.
 
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It’s funny how a year or two ago a lot of people on this forum assumed every good NEIPA on earth was made w/LAIII, and now people are finally started to move away from it. I’ve never been a huge fan of it, at least when it’s pushed and you get a lot of esters.

I have a beer cold crashing now w/this yeast. I fermented at 64 w/a big starter. So far I’m not getting all the esters I despised in the past.

It seems like alot of people are pitching w/small starters, or no starter at all with just a pack of yeast. It seems like this is nowhere near enough - am I missing something? For this last beer I did a 2L starter, crashed, followed by a 1L starter. Yeast date was a couple months old, OG was 1.084.
 

brewpharm Hill

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It’s funny how a year or two ago a lot of people on this forum assumed every good NEIPA on earth was made w/LAIII, and now people are finally started to move away from it. I’ve never been a huge fan of it, at least when it’s pushed and you get a lot of esters.

I have a beer cold crashing now w/this yeast. I fermented at 64 w/a big starter. So far I’m not getting all the esters I despised in the past.

It seems like alot of people are pitching w/small starters, or no starter at all with just a pack of yeast. It seems like this is nowhere near enough - am I missing something? For this last beer I did a 2L starter, crashed, followed by a 1L starter. Yeast date was a couple months old, OG was 1.084.
Same temp I use. 64-66.

A starter should always be used for liquid yeast packages (to my understanding). I know imperial says it is not needed, but I prefer the results with a starter.
 

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I tend to agree with @TheHairyHop on LAIII. I have been using LAIII to dial in my NEIPA recipe, and now that have my water chemistry, grain bill, hop schedule, and fermentation to where I want them I tend to think LAIII is "too much". When comparing to the tree house profile LAIII it too sweet, too juicy and it seems to mute hop flavors. LAII still makes a great beer but to me it tastes nothing like the tree house profile. I might try one more batch with LAIII with a lower mash and fermentation temp to see where that gets me, but I am also very interested in giving S-04 and Burton a try.
Its true its nowhere near tree house but all the alternatives ive tried so far lack juicyness, cant think of another way to describe it. Tree House is super juicy for me with a very distinct ester profile.
Will be giving burton a go too, i'm done with s-04 personally, had a king sue and picked it up very strong and didnt like it. Its quiet one dimensional in flavor. S33 was a little better.
 

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First, apologies if the reply came off as curt. I probably punched it out on my phone during a too quick break from the lab.
Secondly, if anyone can let me know the secret to getting good flavor out of Conan, I'd love to hear it. It's always just been fairly neutral for me.
With regards to yeast, I'll state my perception/preference first. I kind of lean towards some sentiments of Couchsending, where it's best to let the hops shine. I don't know what's exactly up with TH (I guess kind of obviously. If I knew, I would let EVERYONE know), as I can taste some esters, but I don't consider it an ester bomb. I also don't taste any phenols whatsoever, which has always lead me to be dubious about the WB-06 and even T-58. I tend to not repeat a brew. I split 7 gallons into two 3.5 gallons in order to do some experiments to learn and keep things interesting. So, with that being said, I almost intentionally don't have a specific preference. I've had great results with Bedford, and I used Burton ale for a string of brews because I liked it so much. Unfortunately, my experiment with Essex was a failure, because my water chemistry was whack from my new home's well. I recently did Imperial's House and Independence, and both of them were great as well. Cloudburst, which makes some of the dang best IPAs in the world IMO, had a pretty good interview where they espoused keeping a cleaner fermentation profile (Cloudburst’s Essential, Quintessential Northwest IPAs — Beervana [if anyone knows which yeast they use, please let me know!]) I originally hated S-04, but ever since I've been adjusting my mash and boil pH, I don't get that weird tartness from it. I would say it's become my "control" yeast. So yea, sorry for the long winded reply. I just really, really don't get 1318, and that's from years of loving it. I just sort of had my last batch with it and thought that it was too full, too dominant, and kind of missing the point of delivering a hop bomb.
P.S. Second apologies for the relative diversion of the thread's topic.
Cloudburst uses Imperial A30 Corporate. My understanding is that it's the same or similar yeast to what Steve used at Elysian.
 

tbaldwin000

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...Cloudburst, which makes some of the dang best IPAs in the world IMO, had a pretty good interview where they espoused keeping a cleaner fermentation profile (Cloudburst’s Essential, Quintessential Northwest IPAs — Beervana [if anyone knows which yeast they use, please let me know!])...
BRY-96, as cited in this article, is essentially the origin of Chico yeast, of which there are now a few brewery specific strains, but it seems US-05 would be a good and simple place to start.

I've had their beers a few times, they were lovely hop-forward IPAs. However, I have a problem taking this article seriously when London Ale III and other British strains are described as 'low-floc'. That is completely the opposite of what is typical of British strains, including LAIII. British strains tend to have very high flocculation and good sedimentation, though the latter is less of a certainty with a British strain. Ironically most BRY-96 derivative yeasts have a rather more lax approach to flocculation, though they have good sedimentation.
 
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Northern_Brewer

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BRY-96, as cited in this article, is essentially the origin of Chico yeast, of which there are now a few brewery specific strains, but it seems US-05 would be a good and simple place to start.
In the comments Jeff says " The strain is a downstream version of the BRY 96 now available at Imperial, but I didn’t ask which one. " That must be a reference to Imperial A30 Corporate which is allegedly from Elysian (and discussed in this thread), where Luke worked before Cloudburst.

So Corporate would be first choice, if you wanted a dry yeast then BRY-97 would be closer than US-05 on the assumption that BRY-97 lacks the BAT1 mutation typical of the US-05/1056 group.
 

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Ordered some 1028, wlp023, wlp540 to try next to VT Ale. Interested to see how the supposed “biotransformative” properties of these yeast compare to the yeast I use all the time.
 

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Yes thiols can go up on the hotside. 1.3oz per gallon is a lot. Don't you get too much bitterness? What kind of timing are we talking?
If I whirlpool 6oz for a 5 gallon batch I feel there is too much lingering bitterness in the way for the fruits to come out.
Even with lowered wort PH and wp Temps.
My best hazy to date that I did back in the spring I had 6 oz whirlpool(180 degrees) in a 4.25 gallon batch. It wasn't meant to be that much whirlpool but I accidentally threw some of the dry hop charge into whirlpool. Dry hop ended up being 4 oz T90 and 1 oz cryo(simcoe), so essentially the same amount. The beer wasn't bitter at all and bursting with juicy hop flavor. I think alot of people sleep on the hot side hops and assume they don't add much.
 

mcoman

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My best hazy to date that I did back in the spring I had 6 oz whirlpool(180 degrees) in a 4.25 gallon batch. It wasn't meant to be that much whirlpool but I accidentally threw some of the dry hop charge into whirlpool. Dry hop ended up being 4 oz T90 and 1 oz cryo(simcoe), so essentially the same amount. The beer wasn't bitter at all and bursting with juicy hop flavor. I think alot of people sleep on the hot side hops and assume they don't add much.
The recipe I like uses 4.5oz/5gal in the whirlpool and 6.5oz/5gal of dry hops. I get plenty of juicy hop flavor too much IMO with LAIII. I think hop quality plays a big role as well. I recently started buying my hops directly from Yakima Valley rather than my local homebrew shop. Not only is the quality much better but they are usually cheaper too.

In my recipes I mostly keep it to 2 hop verities a main hop and supporting hop in roughly a 3:1 ratio. I just buy 8 oz. packs from Yakima Valley and use the whole thing in one batch as my main hop, that way I don't have to worry about how fresh an open pack of hops are.
 

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Ordered some 1028, wlp023, wlp540 to try next to VT Ale. Interested to see how the supposed “biotransformative” properties of these yeast compare to the yeast I use all the time.
@couchsending what do you typically ferment VT ale at? Underpitch or no?

I ordered from the yeast bay for the first time - going to brew this wknd.
 

couchsending

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@couchsending what do you typically ferment VT ale at? Underpitch or no?

I ordered from the yeast bay for the first time - going to brew this wknd.
I think unless you’ve got a microscope I wouldn’t suggest under pitching. I don’t trust yeast calculators at all and generally try to pitch a pretty healthy amount of yeast. I’ve been repitching by weight lately. Gotten to 7 or 8 generations with VT. If it’s 5% or less I pitch at 62 and let freerise to 68 and leave it there. If it’s 6% or over I pitch at 62 and let rise to 66 for 2-3 days then let it finish at 68-70 usually.
 

beervoid

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My best hazy to date that I did back in the spring I had 6 oz whirlpool(180 degrees) in a 4.25 gallon batch. It wasn't meant to be that much whirlpool but I accidentally threw some of the dry hop charge into whirlpool. Dry hop ended up being 4 oz T90 and 1 oz cryo(simcoe), so essentially the same amount. The beer wasn't bitter at all and bursting with juicy hop flavor. I think alot of people sleep on the hot side hops and assume they don't add much.
Ok so just to know what you see as bitter. Is Other Half bitter for you?
 

VirginiaHops1

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Ok so just to know what you see as bitter. Is Other Half bitter for you?
I haven't had a ton of OH(I think 4?). I don't recall alot of bitterness but they may have had some bite. One of them with galaxy hops had major hop burn and was terrible
 

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Have any of you guys had the recent bottled Julius? Been hearing a lot of buzz about this batch. Looks darker from the pics too. Anyone try a touch roast malt in ipas?
 

TheHairyHop

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I just did another split batch of S-04. I'm pretty sure knockout pH is really important in avoiding the tart, bready flavors that I had (and hated) in the past. This is my second or so batch adjusting pH, and the beer is nice. One of the kegs, I pitched at a rate half of the other. This was a really crude underpitch experiment. I tell you what, I haven't oxidized an IPA in what feels like years, but that sucker is brown, sweet, and kind of tastes like olives. Absolute disaster. I think maybe the slow fermentation allowed the heavy whirlpool to oxidize before the yeast could scrub the fermenter.
 

beervoid

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I just did another split batch of S-04. I'm pretty sure knockout pH is really important in avoiding the tart, bready flavors that I had (and hated) in the past. This is my second or so batch adjusting pH, and the beer is nice. One of the kegs, I pitched at a rate half of the other. This was a really crude underpitch experiment. I tell you what, I haven't oxidized an IPA in what feels like years, but that sucker is brown, sweet, and kind of tastes like olives. Absolute disaster. I think maybe the slow fermentation allowed the heavy whirlpool to oxidize before the yeast could scrub the fermenter.
Sure you didnt over oxygenate?
 

TheHairyHop

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Sure you didnt over oxygenate?
Hm. Maybe? I don't have a stone or anything. Just filled up the 5 gallon and shook it. I guess to be clear, I'm less making a statement about the underpitch itself, and more just coming to the conclusion that I apparently can't treat it like my other pitches
 

beervoid

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Hm. Maybe? I don't have a stone or anything. Just filled up the 5 gallon and shook it. I guess to be clear, I'm less making a statement about the underpitch itself, and more just coming to the conclusion that I apparently can't treat it like my other pitches
Awkward indeed.
Dry yeast doesnt need oxygenation but there is a limit to how much oxygen you can get into your wort by shaking, it typically lower then yeast needs.
 
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