Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

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NJGeorge

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Wonder if they use any pilsner in the core beers? A lot of hoppy breweries use it in their base. I’ve done it a bunch and love it.
 

couchsending

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Drinking a 110 right now... got some 111 and 112 as well. Yeast character is there but it’s way toned down. I can actually pick our hops on the aroma which is nice.
 

Northern_Brewer

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My impression (with no data) is that the early examples of hazies (across the board, not thinking just TH here) used US malt with no adjuncts, then people started using more British malts (which have lower protein) and added high-protein adjuncts to keep the haze up. Then the copycats saw recipes with oats and wheat and started using them with a base grist of US malt, when perhaps it wasn't needed.

It's worth thinking about these things anyway.

It's also worth noting that the wet weather that delayed planting of spring crops in England followed by hot, dry weather for 3 months means that most 2020 English malt will have high protein content more like European malt, a lot is struggling to meet nitrogen specs. It was a more normal year up north and in Scotland, so pay attention to datasheets but eg Baird and Fawcett will probably have lower nitrogen than the main East Anglian maltsters like Crisp and Munton.

The physiology of nutrient partition is complicated, but the best way to think of it is that when plants have a long growing season and grow slowly (ie normal British conditions) there is more time for the fertiliser applied to the young plants to get used/washed away before they start making grain. So the grain has less nitrogen in it. Whereas there's more nitrogen around when grain is being made by plants growing faster, so more nitrogen ends up in grain grown in European/US conditions.
 

Taket_al_Tauro

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The physiology of nutrient partition is complicated, but the best way to think of it is that when plants have a long growing season and grow slowly (ie normal British conditions) there is more time for the fertiliser applied to the young plants to get used/washed away before they start making grain. So the grain has less nitrogen in it. Whereas there's more nitrogen around when grain is being made by plants growing faster, so more nitrogen ends up in grain grown in European/US conditions.
In addition to what you say here (which is certainly true), there is often also an additional, purely concentration/dilution effect. If plants are able to enjoy a prolonged grain-filling period without stress (e.g., without excessive heat, drought or diseases that kill the foliage), they will make bigger grains, so ultimately more yield.
So you will have more starch in the grains relative to protein, i.e. the protein concentration goes down.
If in contrast the plants experience stress during grain filling, you'll end up with smaller kernels, and a (generally) higher protein concentration.
 

Silver_Is_Money

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Continental Pilsner malt, generally no.

North American Pilsner malt, potentially yes. But it depends.
Briess 2-Row barley base malt protein seems to average about 11% for types ranging from Brewers to Pilsner. How low does base malt protein need to be whereby to accomplish a cloudy beer? What is the % protein for typical UK Maris Otter or GP?
 

brewpharm Hill

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Wonder if they use any pilsner in the core beers? A lot of hoppy breweries use it in their base. I’ve done it a bunch and love it.
I don't think they use pilsner (maybe a little?) in their core beers. One of the recent curiosities said something about using German pilsner malt as a base malt for the first time. And we do know for sure that 2-row is being used based on descriptions from different offerings. But with that being said, they could be using American pilsner malts in their core beers.

EDIT: Went back and looked: Curiosity Ninety Nine

 
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Northern_Brewer

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Briess 2-Row barley base malt protein seems to average about 11% for types ranging from Brewers to Pilsner. How low does base malt protein need to be whereby to accomplish a cloudy beer? What is the % protein for typical UK Maris Otter or GP?
As an example, Simpsons are currently quoting min/max of 8.13-9.69% protein (you have to go to the ASBC/EBC tabs, as the UK normally quotes % nitrogen, which is protein/6.25).

Haze is generally considered to be the result of protein (mostly from grist) interacting with polyphenols (mostly from hops), so you don't want low protein but high. But there may be other considerations, like the flavour contributions of British malts.
 

The_Dirty_Spring

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Any updates from folks trying WLP540? I plan to give it a shot this weekend. Starter roaring along now.

Should I plan to have some S04 and/or T58 ready to throw in at the end to help it finish?

Thanks crew!
 

echoALEia

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Any updates from folks trying WLP540? I plan to give it a shot this weekend. Starter roaring along now.

Should I plan to have some S04 and/or T58 ready to throw in at the end to help it finish?

Thanks crew!
I wasn’t happy with it in the end, but I’m sure experimenting with different fermentation temperatures might help. I think I started at 64 and let it sit there for a day or two and let it free rise. I forget off the top of my head. I think I posted about it earlier. In the beginning of fermentation it has wonderful bubblegum aromas but they are quickly driven off. I got mostly fusels from it at the end. Maybe I should have kept it at a controlled temperature for longer?
 

NJGeorge

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Any updates from folks trying WLP540? I plan to give it a shot this weekend. Starter roaring along now.

Should I plan to have some S04 and/or T58 ready to throw in at the end to help it finish?

Thanks crew!
How does it smell? Keep us updated. Want to give this a try as well at 66
 

HopsAreGood

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Honest question: do you all (people in this thread) still think most of the treehouse beers are as good as they once were?

Last week I had an aaaalterrr ego, a very green, and a brighter than starlight and I thought all three were just meh. They really weren’t all that special at all and the brighter than starlight had major hop burn and was super astringent. I’ve had a lot of treehouse over the years and am really starting to be disappointed every time i get my hands on some.

If I blind taste tested all the three of these, and then found out they were treehouse I’d have been pretty surprised. Just my 2 cents.....curious if anyone else feels the same.
 

The_Dirty_Spring

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How does it smell? Keep us updated. Want to give this a try as well at 66
I'm very curious how it will ultimately turn out. Just took a sample at 48 hours, vigorous ferment that took off almost immediately. Smell is standard IPA fermentation (best aroma in the world). Taste is very bready, but not any of the unique bubble gum/juicy fruit flavors of TH. Just pleasant generic stonefruit so far. I'm refraining all urges to sprinkle a few grams of T-58 in there with the DH tonight.
 

beervoid

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Honest question: do you all (people in this thread) still think most of the treehouse beers are as good as they once were?

Last week I had an aaaalterrr ego, a very green, and a brighter than starlight and I thought all three were just meh. They really weren’t all that special at all and the brighter than starlight had major hop burn and was super astringent. I’ve had a lot of treehouse over the years and am really starting to be disappointed every time i get my hands on some.

If I blind taste tested all the three of these, and then found out they were treehouse I’d have been pretty surprised. Just my 2 cents.....curious if anyone else feels the same.
Is it normal for them to have hopburn fresh? Like Other Half.
 

mcoman

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I do feel that there is some variation on treehouse batches, but I think it ranges from a good beer on a bad batch, to amazing on a good one. Every batch doesn't hit it out of the park but I am never disappointed.

I also find that their beers are a little harsh when fresh, not typically hopburn but more bitter than I think is ideal. I prefer treehouse ipas a few months after canning.
 

beervoid

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I do feel that there is some variation on treehouse batches, but I think it ranges from a good beer on a bad batch, to amazing on a good one. Every batch doesn't hit it out of the park but I am never disappointed.

I also find that their beers are a little harsh when fresh, not typically hopburn but more bitter than I think is ideal. I prefer treehouse ipas a few months after canning.
A few months from canning, sounds exactly what Sam Other Half said about his own beers. He likes them better after a bit of aging.
 

NJGeorge

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Honest question: do you all (people in this thread) still think most of the treehouse beers are as good as they once were?

Last week I had an aaaalterrr ego, a very green, and a brighter than starlight and I thought all three were just meh. They really weren’t all that special at all and the brighter than starlight had major hop burn and was super astringent. I’ve had a lot of treehouse over the years and am really starting to be disappointed every time i get my hands on some.

If I blind taste tested all the three of these, and then found out they were treehouse I’d have been pretty surprised. Just my 2 cents.....curious if anyone else feels the same.
Yeah I kinda agree. I just picked up some fresh TH last week and the only ones that blow me away are the double IPAs. They have the old school strong TH house yeast thing going on. Had a green last night and thought some of my homebrews are just as good. The mouthfeel is crazy thick tho. I agree they’re better after or week or two aging. Too much sludge in the bottom of the cans. The julius I got in the fall I thought was meh and had some fusels. Reminded me of a beer I made with s04, 33 and b256 that I let get too warm. I’m going to try some Conan and b256 this weekend. I think there are a ton of other great beers out there so our opinion on TH has changed.
 

couchsending

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It’s highly hopped very unfiltered beer, and 240bbls of it. There’s going to be variation always. I’ve never had a bad beer from them personally. I also don’t really like most of their hoppy beers these days but I’ve never had one with flaws or off flavors. The mouthfeel and texture is always on point. The hop flavor is generally pretty consistent but the aroma of their beers 8 times out of 10 leaves a lot to be desired. Recently had C110, 11, 112 which were some of the better beers I’ve had of theirs in a while. Recent Juice Project beers however I could have done without.
 

NJGeorge

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Oh one more thing, the recent jjjjulius is actually very good and reminds me of the Monson julius.
Has anyone recently just used briess pale ale malt? How is it? Thinking of trying that with some carafoam for a darker julius like color. Maybe some caramunich to get the right srm.
 

kmarkstevens

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Just posting as a way to track this thread. I'm at page 11 now. Really interesting to follow the multi-yeast strain detective work going on.
 

VirginiaHops1

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I had some Treehouses for the first time recently. Honestly not sure what the hype is about. It was good beer, well except for maybe the Julius that just tasted...off. Still, not any better than the good breweries near me. I didn't get any unique flavor that I would spend tons of time chasing via yeast choice though. Not trying to **** on them, just one person's opinion
 

cani0501

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For what it's worth. I brewed CBB recipe for Vitamin Sea Double Summer and fermented with Bananza at 74 degrees, cold crashed and dumped yeast prior to dry hop. Dry hopped at 50 degrees then to keg. RO water built up to my preferable profile. Mash 5.3 pH. Indistinguishable from Very Hazzzy TH. Absolutely fantastic. Gave it to 10 people and not one could tell a difference. Also acidification with some lactic acid at KO to a pH of 4.9.
 

HopsAreGood

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For what it's worth. I brewed CBB recipe for Vitamin Sea Double Summer and fermented with Bananza at 74 degrees, cold crashed and dumped yeast prior to dry hop. Dry hopped at 50 degrees then to keg. RO water built up to my preferable profile. Mash 5.3 pH. Indistinguishable from Very Hazzzy TH. Absolutely fantastic. Gave it to 10 people and not one could tell a difference. Also acidification with some lactic acid at KO to a pH of 4.9.
Can you share the recipe here?
 

cani0501

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Can you share the recipe here?
Sure. I use a grainfather G30 for brewing so the recipe has been formulated to my system.

Batch Size 6.08 gal
EST. OG 1.064

6lb Pale Malt, 2-Row Rahr
5lb Flaked Oats
2lb Golden Promise
1lb Carapils
5oz Dextrose

Hops
1oz Citra Boil @ 20
1oz Cascade Boil @ 15
1oz Cascade Boil @ 10
3oz Cascade WP 15min (170 degrees)
3oz Citra WP 15min
3oz Cascade and 3oz Citra DH 4days

Ca 21, Mg 21, Na 53, Cl 92, So4 107, HCO3 16

**I always order hops from Yakima Valley, freshest batch I can get. I never go to my local HBS to buy hops as I don't know the freshness** Fresher the hops-Better the beer.

Flavor wise, extremely close to Haze or Very Hazy. Not exact ABV but you could easily modify to get there if you want. I think the key is the combo of the high banana esters and the Cascade hops.
 
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brewpharm Hill

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Brewing a batch tomorrow of using 50/50 wlp540 and S04. I have slurries of both so I'm going to add equal parts slurry of each to a starter today to have it ready to pitch tomorrow. Brewing an all azacca DIPA. Plan on starting cool around 60 and then let it get to 66 after day 3. Hoping to keep the esters by doing this. I've read that wlp540 starts to throw off some more intense flavors past 66.

FWIW I tasted the starter of the wlp540 and it was surprisingly clean for a belgian yeast.
 

beervoid

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Brewing a batch tomorrow of using 50/50 wlp540 and S04. I have slurries of both so I'm going to add equal parts slurry of each to a starter today to have it ready to pitch tomorrow. Brewing an all azacca DIPA. Plan on starting cool around 60 and then let it get to 66 after day 3. Hoping to keep the esters by doing this. I've read that wlp540 starts to throw off some more intense flavors past 66.

FWIW I tasted the starter of the wlp540 and it was surprisingly clean for a belgian yeast.
Esters are formed in the first 48h of fermentation so if it's that what you are after raising it to 66 at day 3 most likely won't do much
 

TBryerton

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Sure. I use a grainfather G30 for brewing so the recipe has been formulated to my system.

Batch Size 6.08 gal
EST. OG 1.064

6lb Pale Malt, 2-Row Rahr
5lb Flaked Oats
2lb Golden Promise
1lb Carapils
5oz Dextrose

Hops
1oz Citra Boil @ 20
1oz Cascade Boil @ 15
1oz Cascade Boil @ 10
3oz Cascade WP 15min (170 degrees)
3oz Citra WP 15min
3oz Cascade and 3oz Citra DH 4days

Ca 21, Mg 21, Na 53, Cl 92, So4 107, HCO3 16

**I always order hops from Yakima Valley, freshest batch I can get. I never go to my local HBS to buy hops as I don't know the freshness** Fresher the hops-Better the beer.

Flavor wise, extremely close to Haze or Very Hazy. Not exact ABV but you could easily modify to get there if you want. I think the key is the combo of the high banana esters and the Cascade hops.
Isn’t Haze Amarillo heavy with no flaked oats? Seems like a very different recipe than what I would expect from that beer. Not trying to tell you you’re wrong but I would guarantee I could tell the two beers apart.

I think TH beers certainly have a good amount of variation from batch to batch. I’ve had a few with hop burn but usually that’s not the case. I never get hop burn from OH. They admittedly release beers on the green side but they use a centrifuge and come out very clean, considering their turn around time.

I think a lot of people approach certain beers with unrealistic expectations. For example, Heady and Pliny are still outstanding beers, but if go in expecting a super juicy milkshake IPA you’re going to be disappointed. Same goes for TH core beers. They’re intended to be highly crushable, smooth IPA’s with a great mouthfeel, smooth bitterness, w/o overpowering your taste buds. Outside of TH and Hill, I cant think of anyone creating that level of mouthfeel, especially w/o a super high FG or a S***-ton of adjuncts, which to me is a different mouthfeel anyway.
 

cani0501

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Hey, I'm not saying that's the recipe. I'm just saying with that hop and yeast combo it's a very similar taste.
 

NJGeorge

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I think I've said this recently in this thread, but using Bananza will help get you close. Of course using fresh good quality hops. Use, citra, cascade, simcoe and amarillo in whatever ratios, combinations and amounts you want. Base malt, carafoam and some caramalts. Its also worth to note that TH is getting good quality base grain. No Briess stuff etc..

I just kegged a batch fermented with 2 packs dry conan, 2g each of t-58 and b-256. Used briess pale ale malt, carafoam and a little caramunich. Kettle hopped with cascade, citra, simcoe and amarillo. Dry hopped at 50 - 55 for around 30 hours with citra/simcoe and a touch of amarillo then crashed to 40, dump hops and keg. Will report back in a couple weeks.

FWIW there's a local brewery by me in NJ that makes an all citra IPA that reminds me of julius. They have the ingredients listed on the can. Citra hops, two row, oats, caramalts and house ale yeast which I believe is London fog. Check out Eye of the storm citra by Jersey Cyclone Brewing.
 

HopsAreGood

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I think I've said this recently in this thread, but using Bananza will help get you close. Of course using fresh good quality hops. Use, citra, cascade, simcoe and amarillo in whatever ratios, combinations and amounts you want. Base malt, carafoam and some caramalts. Its also worth to note that TH is getting good quality base grain. No Briess stuff etc..

I just kegged a batch fermented with 2 packs dry conan, 2g each of t-58 and b-256. Used briess pale ale malt, carafoam and a little caramunich. Kettle hopped with cascade, citra, simcoe and amarillo. Dry hopped at 50 - 55 for around 30 hours with citra/simcoe and a touch of amarillo then crashed to 40, dump hops and keg. Will report back in a couple weeks.

FWIW there's a local brewery by me in NJ that makes an all citra IPA that reminds me of julius. They have the ingredients listed on the can. Citra hops, two row, oats, caramalts and house ale yeast which I believe is London fog. Check out Eye of the storm citra by Jersey Cyclone Brewing.
Good stuff here....I’m a little surprised that you think eye of the storm Citra is close to Julius. I’ve had it many times and it’s ok...nothing special.

I think one thing that gets overlooked here is how different peoples palettes can be. Like, I have no doubt that you think it’s close to Julius. But for me, it’s not even close. Doesn’t mean either one of us is more right or wrong. We just perceive it differently.

On a sidenote I have a mosaic/galaxy double IPA that I recently kegged using 89% 2-row and 11% CaraFoam, Which I’ve seen some people say is very close to the grain bill for the treehouse core beers.

The mouth feel is super light and totally crushable. It’s refreshing drinking a beer that isn’t loaded with oats and or wheat.
 
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NJGeorge

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Good stuff here....I’m a little surprised that you think eye of the storm Citra is close to Julius. I’ve had it many times and it’s ok...nothing special.

I think one thing that gets overlooked here is how different peoples palettes can be. Like, I have no doubt that you think it’s close to Julius. But for me, it’s not even close.
Have you had it recently? I think its changed a bit since last year and I'm not talking the DDH version. Its definitely not exact, but the malt profile and the citra hops reminds me of Julius. And yes, everyone's palette is different. There's beers my wife loves that I think are just ok and she thinks TH is just ok. I'll have to do a side by side this weekend to confirm.
 

HopsAreGood

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Have you had it recently? I think its changed a bit since last year and I'm not talking the DDH version. Its definitely not exact, but the malt profile and the citra hops reminds me of Julius. And yes, everyone's palette is different. There's beers my wife loves that I think are just ok and she thinks TH is just ok. I'll have to do a side by side this weekend to confirm.
I have not had it recently but I can certainly pick up a four pack or stop in for a pour. I’ll let you know what I think when I have some again.
 

brewpharm Hill

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Esters are formed in the first 48h of fermentation so if it's that what you are after raising it to 66 at day 3 most likely won't do much
That's my exact reasoning. I want to subdue them and let it finish strong after. Since I've never used this yeast I don't want a complete ester bomb. Plus I like S04 on the cooler side as well.
 

beervoid

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That's my exact reasoning. I want to subdue them and let it finish strong after. Since I've never used this yeast I don't want a complete ester bomb. Plus I like S04 on the cooler side as well.
Ok gotcha, would be curious to hear how it turned out. I can't stand s-04. Tried different temps but not as low as that
 

The_Dirty_Spring

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I'm very curious how it will ultimately turn out. Just took a sample at 48 hours, vigorous ferment that took off almost immediately. Smell is standard IPA fermentation (best aroma in the world). Taste is very bready, but not any of the unique bubble gum/juicy fruit flavors of TH. Just pleasant generic stonefruit so far. I'm refraining all urges to sprinkle a few grams of T-58 in there with the DH tonight.
Update on the WLP540 IPA. 7%. Mostly citra, some CTZ and Centennial in WP (2.5oz) and DH (6oz). DH at tail end of ferment (day 3). Around ten days in the sample was super sweet, so I elected to add a a half pack of S-04 to help it finish, ended at 1.012.

Not all that hazy - appearance is more like a fresh US-05 beer. Not all that bready - perhaps the S-04 chewed some of that up. Zero bubblegum. Moderate, generic stonefruit esters. Not fusely like others had reported (I kept it 65F first 3 days); but basically very reminiscent of my recent attempts with S-33 and S-04 in low 60s. Will not try 540 again, unless in combination.
 
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beervoid

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do you adjust your mash and/or kettle pH? I used to hate s-04, but adjusting my pH really fixed the issue that I was having
Yes, I aim for 4.5 final and am usually in the ballpark, I just really don't like the character of this yeast somehow, I can pick it up very strongly in Toppling Goliath beers.
 

hopfenstopfen

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Yes, I aim for 4.5 final and am usually in the ballpark, I just really don't like the character of this yeast somehow, I can pick it up very strongly in Toppling Goliath beers.
I assume you tried different fermentation temps & that did not work for you? You must be referring to final pH? I am one of the few that actually like that weird tart thing in S04, but only get it in my beers inconsistently. I pick up the S04 signature flavor strongly in Psuedo Sue, not really at all in other TG beers.
 
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