Is this recipe why my beer was bad?

[ersheff]

Hello.
I've been brewing for about a year. Had some good ones, some stinkers.
Switched to all-grain not too long ago. The all-grain batches I've done, all BIAB, while following a recipe have generally been quite good, so I threw together some recipes of my own to try to get a feel for different ingredients.
I actually had 2 batches to bottle yesterday, but the first one, a rye brown, smelled and tested so bad that I dumped it.
I know, I know, time heals many wounds, but this one was on the yeast for a month already and was so gross I couldn't see it recovering. Didn't look like an infection, either. It had plenty reason to be bad, as my thermometer was all over the place on brew day for that one (no idea if my mash/pitch temps were anywhere near correct) and we had a warm spell come through that meant it was probably sitting at 75-78F for the first two days of primary fermentation (Safale 04). The first night after brewing it, I woke up in the middle of the night and had to just remove the airlock for the whole next day as the krausen just wouldn't stop gushing out the carboy.
For my next beer, I was going for a pretty straightforward stout. I bought a new analog thermometer to make sure my temps were good, and went with Wyeast 1335 because it had a higher temp range (up to 75F), just in case the apartment got warmer than I wanted. Pitched with no starter as it was only a 2.5 gallon batch.
Temps in the apartment probably never got above 70F. Fermentation seemed to start without a hitch.
Fast forward to bottling yesterday after 2.5 weeks, and this beer was pretty bad, too. I bottled this one since it wasn't quite as nasty as the brown, but it was still kind of gross.
There are a lot of things that I can point to as variables (temp might have still been too high, Madison tap water may not be good for mashes, grain was old though didn't seem to be stale with a taste test).
I'd like if possible to rule out the recipe as a problem so that I can turn my attention to other things that need to be fixed.

Here's what I did:
(2.5 gallon batch)
5 lbs 2 row
4 oz crystal 40
4 oz chocolate malt
4 oz black patent
0.25 oz fuggles for 60 minutes
0.75 oz fuggles for 15 minutes
expected OG 1.062 (I think I hit 1.061)
expected FG 1.016 (was pretty close, though I didn't bother to record the exact number since the beer was such a disappointment)
Mashed a bit high (started at 154F, ended at 151F).

As I mentioned, this was meant to be a pretty boring stout. I just wanted to get a feel for these ingredients. See any particular problem?
Anyway, I'm going to plan my next few brews. Might go back to recipes for a while, can't really do much about temps as I have no chamber but the apartment should stay between 66-68F now. I'm going to order the Designing Great Beers book too before trying my own recipe again.
Thanks!

 

[Yooper]

That recipe doesn't look bad, although it might be low in bittering hops and high in flavor hops. I think it would make a nice, but maybe a little bit sweet, stout.

Wyeast 1335 at 65 degrees sounds perfect.

Either the water is to blame, or you've got an infection or something going on.

 

[GlenF]

Try to describe "bad." That will give us a much better idea at the off flavors.

 

[ersheff]

No, it fermented at more like 70F ambient temp.
The badness...
Hmm...
Kind of a rubbery, medicinal thing maybe?
I don't know if I would say solventy, though my first thought was that maybe even 70F was too high. Though if it was, I would have expected that to produce just a slight "off" flavor, not a bad beer.
It wasn't sour, nor "funky".
My GF said "skunky", but it definitely wasn't what I would call skunky like a Heineken/Corona.
And it fermented in an opaque plastic bucket (the typical Ale Pail), so light shouldn't have been an issue.
There were no visible signs of infection. The top surface of the beer when I took the lid off was totally clear, so there wasn't mold or a pellicle.
The airlock started bubbling pretty quickly, less than 24 hours, so I assume the yeast got a good head start. Was bubbling about 2 times per second the next day. Which is just to say that a good amount of CO2 was being produced.
Definitely signs that krausen had formed and fallen as there was the typical residue on the side of the bucket a few inches up from the surface.
Starsan to sanitize everything, which I've been using for a while.
The starsan seems to go cloudy very quickly with the tap water in my new place, but my understanding is that just means it won't remain effective for very long, and I always make a fresh batch.
Was a brand new Ale Pail, too.
If the recipe doesn't seem too off, I'm going to point at either water or old grains being the problem.
I'll ask at my LHBS what they know about brewing with the local water.
My tap water has a slight orange tint to it when collected in large quantities, even when running the tap for a long time. I called the water utility, and they said that's normal for my address, as we have some of the oldest pipes in the city and currently it's being pulled from the well across the isthmus (the closer one is being repaired), which happens to have a higher mineral content.
Even so, I would think "harder" water with more dissolved minerals would be OK for a stout.
I let all of the water I used sit out on the counter overnight to get rid of the chlorine. No chloramines in the local water.
Certainly wouldn't reject more advice, though knowing that the recipe isn't terrible is good and was my main concern. I can eliminate that as the likely culprit and move on to the other suspects.

 

[Yooper]

No, it fermented at more like 70F ambient temp.
The badness...
Hmm...
Kind of a rubbery, medicinal thing maybe?

Oh, if it was 70 ambient that was probably it! Beer can easily be 10 degrees warmer than ambient temperature, and if you are talking about "room temperature" and not "fermentation temperature", you probably nailed it.

Did the good batches get brewed in the winter or spring, when it was cooler?

Water probably has a big impact as well, especially if you have iron it in. Until I bought my own RO system, I was buying "water machine" water at the grocery store. Try that, and it will make a big difference also.

RO water, and fermentation temperatures at least 10 degrees cooler should fix you up!

 

[GlenF]

Yea, sounds like some funky phenolics probably thrown off by the yeast at those ferm temps. Getting some spring water at the grocers to run a test is a good idea, too.

 

[ersheff]

Nuts!
I don't think I can get the ambient temps much lower.
Older batches were fermented in my friend's basements, 63-67F.
I moved to another city and he's got a baby now, so I've been trying to ferment on my own.
I figured once the weather outside changed and the apartment was sitting between 66-70F max, I could turn out some decent brews.
Oh, well. Looks like a fermentation chamber build is in my future!

 

[jmich24]

Are you treating your water with campden?

 

[BrotherGrim]

You could get an RV water filter to clear your water up. I use tap water from my local utility it is a bit strong fresh from the tap, but I use an RV filter and food grade water hose to fill my boil kettle and it tastes fine. The end result is good beer. The water won't help the fermentation temperature, but it may be a contributor to your trouble.

 

[Turfmanbrad]

I had the same issue...about 15 good batches then 2 in a row bad bandaid flavors. It wasn't the water as my source didn't change, but my cleaning practices were weak. I got rid of old hoses, soaked everything in cleaner before each batch (I used to rinse well and sanitize but sanitizing and cleaning are different) and I haven't had an issue since. It turned out to be wild yeasts. I'd definitely double check your cleaning practices first. It helped me!

 

[ersheff]

I had the same issue...about 15 good batches then 2 in a row bad bandaid flavors. It wasn't the water as my source didn't change, but my cleaning practices were weak. I got rid of old hoses, soaked everything in cleaner before each batch (I used to rinse well and sanitize but sanitizing and cleaning are different) and I haven't had an issue since. It turned out to be wild yeasts. I'd definitely double check your cleaning practices first. It helped me!

Hmm. Well, as I mentioned, the bucket was brand new.
And I didn't use any hoses into the bucket, just dumped straight out of the kettle after cooling.
Only other thing in the bucket before it got the wort was starsan. I only make up 1 gallon of it and swish/wipe it up all along the sides, but that's the same thing I've done for the batches that turn out well.
I would certainly cop to a sanitation problem if I thought that was it, but the chances seem extremely slim with lots of new equipment and no mistakes that I can think of.
I may do water at the fill-up station from the coop down the street, but I still want to talk to the LHBS first because it's more convenient and cheaper to use the tap water. I expect they would know if local brewers were having problems.

 

[ersheff]

If I haven't already mentioned it, I should state for the record that I live in an apartment, so inline filtering options are limited.

 

[stevedasleeve]

Starsan will last forever if you mix it with distilled water FWIW. Sounds like you are OK on sanitation however. The recipe you posted is not my taste for sure , but you are not me! I'd bitter it much more myself. Charcoal filtering is easy enough and I would suggest you try it. I use a filter on my kitchen faucet for very little inconvenience or cost. My suggestions are: find a well used ( popular with a track record) recipe, sanitize with starsan mixed with distilled water, and control your fermentation temps. If your beer still sucks.., well I'd be surprised...! Good luck!!

 

[ersheff]

Starsan will last forever if you mix it with distilled water FWIW. Sounds like you are OK on sanitation however. The recipe you posted is not my taste for sure , but you are not me! I'd bitter it much more myself. Charcoal filtering is easy enough and I would suggest you try it. I use a filter on my kitchen faucet for very little inconvenience or cost. My suggestions are: find a well used ( popular with a track record) recipe, sanitize with starsan mixed with distilled water, and control your fermentation temps. If your beer still sucks.., well I'd be surprised...! Good luck!!

With the charcoal filter, are you talking about the typical Pur/Brita pitcher action?
I had originally planned to get a faucet mounted Culligan deal, but wanted to give the straight tap water a shot first.
The Culligan one is the best-rated faucet mount version online (Amazon), though it's filter type is listed as "Carbon Block". Says it will reduce "chlorine, sediment, particulates, etc."
The filters are good for 200 gallons, so if I only use it for brewing purposes, it seems like a fairly convenient and efficient/inexpensive option.
Also, yeah, feel free to pick apart my recipe. I'm still learning on that end.
That's why I ordered Designing Great Beers last night!

 

[KurtB]

ersheff,

I woud look into a swamp cooler to help lower the temps (there are a number of examples here on HBT). All is takes is a larger bucket of water that you can set the ale pail into (wal-mart has some cheap) and some ice (I freeze water in a bunch of 2 liter bottles and just swap them out as they melt). If you need to cool it even more, hang a t-shirt over the ale pail and into the water and it will wick some water up and evaporate, cooling the pail even more. Building a chamber is nice, but the swamp cooler is a simple, quick and inexpensive fix.

Of course my first guess would still be your water.

Let us know how the next batch turns out.

 

[Herky21]

Hmm. Well, as I mentioned, the bucket was brand new.
And I didn't use any hoses into the bucket, just dumped straight out of the kettle after cooling.
Only other thing in the bucket before it got the wort was starsan. I only make up 1 gallon of it and swish/wipe it up all along the sides, but that's the same thing I've done for the batches that turn out well.
I would certainly cop to a sanitation problem if I thought that was it, but the chances seem extremely slim with lots of new equipment and no mistakes that I can think of.
I may do water at the fill-up station from the coop down the street, but I still want to talk to the LHBS first because it's more convenient and cheaper to use the tap water. I expect they would know if local brewers were having problems.

I'd recommend camden tablets and better temp control. When you get the bandaid, medicinal, and clove flavors it is likely one of those 2 things.