Is there a trend against crystal malts?

[Owly055]

In reaction this thread, I decided to see if I could brew a decent beer with no malts except crystal malts. A one gallon brew with 2 ounces each of cr60 and cr120, and 4 ounces of carapils..... along with one pound of table sugar. The idea being that the sugar would leave the beer dry, as it ferments out 100% (more or less) and leaves no flavor. The crystals and carapils would compensate by adding some body and sweetness. I did a brief mash using amylase to convert any unconverted starches in the crystal. The mash was done BIAB by heating slowly from 130F to 160F in about 30 minutes.

This is a truly radical beer...... The wort of course tastes quite sweet due to the sugar, but this will quickly change. The flavor is good, but due to the relatively sweeter taste of sucrose compared to maltose, it's difficult to pin down what the finished beer will taste like. It will of course be dark and the caramel flavors of the crystal malt will probably stand out, but the sweetness they provide will not have the backdrop of the unfermentable sugars of base malts behind them. They are "the whole show". I hopped with Zythos to 35 IBU. OG is 1.055, SRM 12.8, and ABV should be somewhere a bit below 6%

This is a really cheap experiment........ Well under $2 for a one gallon brew total cost for fermentables and hops. A quickie experiment.


H.W.

 

[Yooper]

In reaction this thread, I decided to see if I could brew a decent beer with no malts except crystal malts. A one gallon brew with 2 ounces each of cr60 and cr120, and 4 ounces of carapils..... along with one pound of table sugar. The idea being that the sugar would leave the beer dry, as it ferments out 100% (more or less) and leaves no flavor. The crystals and carapils would compensate by adding some body and sweetness. I did a brief mash using amylase to convert any unconverted starches in the crystal. The mash was done BIAB by heating slowly from 130F to 160F in about 30 minutes.

This is a truly radical beer...... The wort of course tastes quite sweet due to the sugar, but this will quickly change. The flavor is good, but due to the relatively sweeter taste of sucrose compared to maltose, it's difficult to pin down what the finished beer will taste like. It will of course be dark and the caramel flavors of the crystal malt will probably stand out, but the sweetness they provide will not have the backdrop of the unfermentable sugars of base malts behind them. They are "the whole show". I hopped with Zythos to 35 IBU. OG is 1.055, SRM 12.8, and ABV should be somewhere a bit below 6%

This is a really cheap experiment........ Well under $2 for a one gallon brew total cost for fermentables and hops. A quickie experiment.


H.W.

With no base malt at all, I'd probably not call this "beer". Probably I'd call it a sugar wine, with some crystal malt for flavor.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Is there a trend, I hope so. I say good riddance to crystal. Caramel is where it's really at.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

With no base malt at all, I'd probably not call this "beer". Probably I'd call it a sugar wine, with some crystal malt for flavor.

Why?

Crystal is, technically, malted barley.

I've done what he is proposing, minus the cane sugar. It still makes beer, albeit not a very good one.

 

[JonM]

Someone accidentally did that a while ago and posted about it. IIRC, the wort was jet black and unfermentable. I'll see if I can find the thread.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Someone accidentally did that a while ago and posted about it. IIRC, the wort was jet black and unfermentable. I'll see if I can find the thread.

Could you presumably throw a *bunch* of bugs in there like pedio/lacto/brett, wouldn't this combination eventually be able to eat through the "unfermentables"?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Someone accidentally did that a while ago and posted about it. IIRC, the wort was jet black and unfermentable. I'll see if I can find the thread.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=208361&page=3

 

[JonM]

That's a good one, but the one I'm thinking of was a "why does my wort look so dark?" thread followed by "what was your recipe?" followed by "12 pounds of C60. Is that bad?"

I searched around and couldn't find it. Oh well.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

That's a good one, but the one I'm thinking of was a "why does my wort look so dark?" thread followed by "what was your recipe?" followed by "12 pounds of C60. Is that bad?"

I searched around and couldn't find it. Oh well.

Ahh, I have not seen that one.

I too was surprised by the fermentability of crystal malts as i was not expecting much based on the information of the time. the flavor result was just not something I enjoyed.

 

[AK7007]

Haven't had a chance to read all of this yet, but I'll say - is this a good topic for a featured article? These crystal threads come up often, with dissenting opinions on either side. Would be nice to see a full write up, with each side giving examples of why they like/dislike crystal in various applications. Probably co-written even. Just throwing it out there.

 

[MattyIce]

Haven't had a chance to read all of this yet, but I'll say - is this a good topic for a featured article? These crystal threads come up often, with dissenting opinions on either side. Would be nice to see a full write up, with each side giving examples of why they like/dislike crystal in various applications. Probably co-written even. Just throwing it out there.

Maybe yes, maybe no. I see it as more of a micro-trend. Right now it seems cool to tell everyone you are not using any crystal in a particular recipe than it is to simply not use them.

Just like the "cloying" term thrown around willy nilly lately. I can honestly say I have tasted ONE beer that I would describe as cloying...It was a 22% abv flat eisbock. It almost had the consistency of teriyaki sauce haha. Strangely enough, I see most uses of cloying outside of the HBT world to not involve food/beverage at all.

 

[JKaranka]

I just think you need to justify using crystal malt, like any other ingredient. Most beers don't need it.

 

[bobbrews]

Just like the "cloying" term thrown around willy nilly lately. I can honestly say I have tasted ONE beer that I would describe as cloying...It was a 22% abv flat eisbock. It almost had the consistency of teriyaki sauce haha. Strangely enough, I see most uses of cloying outside of the HBT world to not involve food/beverage at all.

Not sure where the confusion lies with the word: Cloying.

It's a very descriptive word for a beer that is way too sweet given the style... especially for inherently dry & bitter styles where residual sweetness is not desired.

Syrupy and sticky IPAs...yuck... Drinkability suffers massively because of that.

 

[Turkeyshot]

I just think you need to justify using crystal malt, like any other ingredient. Most beers don't need it.

But why do you need to justify it at all. If the addition of crystal malt adds to the overall flavor of the beer whether or not you can pick it out as an ingredient, it is the overall taste that makes the beer. Just as in using multiple spices in cooking where you may not taste each individual spice, but it contributes to the finished product as a whole.

 

[Owly055]

Why?

Crystal is, technically, malted barley.

I've done what he is proposing, minus the cane sugar. It still makes beer, albeit not a very good one.

I believe this is actually very different from what you describe.

The cane sugar allows the use of very little crystal..... only 4 ounces. This is an amount you might find an an ordinary beer..........a pound of crystal in 5 gallons is not unheard of. The use of sugar adds no sweetness or body, unlike base malts.......... That character must all come from the crystal. This is quite distinctly different from simply using 100% crystal malt to achieve the OG, which is going to result is a cloyingly sweet beer. When you use crystal in an ordinary beer, it's added on top of what the base malt lends....... There is no base malt in this case. I'm not at all sure what you can use for a comparison. Definitely it does not equate to anything I've done before, or to the brews being offered for comparison. One poster referred to it as "sugar wine"..... because the main fermentable is sugar. The predominant flavors are crystal malt and hops. In the end it will be "beer"...... It will have the distinctive malty / hoppy character of beer.


H.W.

 

[dfhar]

Except you might get something dominated by funky off flavors from the yeast, because your base of sugar doesn't include all of the normal yeast nutrients found in base malt.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I believe this is actually very different from what you describe.

The cane sugar allows the use of very little crystal..... only 4 ounces. This is an amount you might find an an ordinary beer..........a pound of crystal in 5 gallons is not unheard of. The use of sugar adds no sweetness or body, unlike base malts.......... That character must all come from the crystal. This is quite distinctly different from simply using 100% crystal malt to achieve the OG, which is going to result is a cloyingly sweet beer. When you use crystal in an ordinary beer, it's added on top of what the base malt lends....... There is no base malt in this case. I'm not at all sure what you can use for a comparison. Definitely it does not equate to anything I've done before, or to the brews being offered for comparison. One poster referred to it as "sugar wine"..... because the main fermentable is sugar. The predominant flavors are crystal malt and hops. In the end it will be "beer"...... It will have the distinctive malty / hoppy character of beer.


H.W.


H.W.

You will find, I expect as I did, that the sweetness/flavor contribution is heavily dependent on the roasting level of the crystal used. The lower lovibond crystals did not result in a cloying beer, nor did they result in a terrible beer IMO. Just not a good beer, IMO.

 

[Owly055]

Except you might get something dominated by funky off flavors from the yeast, because your base of sugar doesn't include all of the normal yeast nutrients found in base malt.

That's worth considering.......... Are those nutrients destroyed in the kilning process when crystal is made?

H.W.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

That's worth considering.......... Are those nutrients destroyed in the kilning process when crystal is made?

H.W.

I don't think they are destroyed but given the ratio to sugar they would be lacking.

 

[Owly055]

I don't think they are destroyed but given the ratio to sugar they would be lacking.

So, it would behoove me to pitch pretty heavily, because the reproductive phase is the worst for off flavors........... Right?

H.W.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

So, it would behoove me to pitch pretty heavily, because the reproductive phase is the worst for off flavors........... Right?

H.W.

I don't follow how pitching more yeast makes for more nutrient. I would consider nutrient supplementation at the very least.

 

[Owly055]

I don't follow how pitching more yeast makes for more nutrient. I would consider nutrient supplementation at the very least.

From what I understand, the nutrients in question are primarily consumed during the reproduction phase. I know from experience that with the problems I have with temp control (no temp controlled ferm chamber), a heavy pitch gives me a cleaner beer. What is and what is not an "off" flavor depends on what you are trying to do......... "Off Flavors" are in if you are brewing a Belgian. Any flavor produced by the yeast could be defined as "off"....depending on what you are brewing.


H.W.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

The ultimate test would be to figure out an exbeeriment brulosopher could do where you have a triangle test to see if people could tell the difference between a beer with and without crystal malt added.

Maybe two belgian golden ales. One uses a crystal/caramel malt for color and straight cane sugar to hit gravity. Second beer, same base malt, no specialty malts, and darker candi sugar to reach the same gravity *and* color. This is about as creative as I can be on a way to test two beers against each other in a triangle test, where the color is close, the gravity is similar, the malt bill is the same, but the color is derived from different sources to see if theres a statistical difference (enough people select the odd beer out) and if they can detect the difference.

Or a IPA on the darker side (closer to 15 SRM) but using the same candi sugar in one, and crystal in the other with very simple malt bills in both.