Is it a waste?

[brewskiez]

Did my first all grain batch BIAB method after the boil I'm getting 1.032 for og it's supposed to be 1.055 is this batch trash or can I maybe add sugar I really don't know what to do. I don't know if mybe I burnt the wort there's a grey sludge residue from the boil up. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[Kharnynb]

almost looks like carbonated on the edges, did you go extremely overboard with the flame?

 

[TheMadKing]

Did my first all grain batch BIAB method after the boil I'm getting 1.032 for og it's supposed to be 1.055 is this batch trash or can I maybe add sugar I really don't know what to do. I don't know if mybe I burnt the wort there's a grey sludge residue from the boil up. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Can you describe your recipe and process a bit more please?

We can't help you figure out what went wrong, or whether the wort you have is usable without more info.

 

[brewskiez]

I might have over boiled I was burning the propane but I don't think it was too crazy with the lid off it would almost cease to boil I left the lid on most of the time did that screw it up?

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

What was your mashing process? temp and for how long....

I know what the sheet says but did you maintain that temp well.... did it ever get to high on you?

 

[brewskiez]

i pored the strike water in my fermentation bucket it was 162 degrees then I put my bag in and stireed the grain around a bunch let it soak for an hour then poured that into my boil pot and then added another 3.75 gallons poured threw the grain and into the bucket and I let that sit another 20 minutes got all the water I could put from the bag and put it in the pot to boil. Boiled and hour and chilled in a ice bath. Og was low 1.032 I did end up poring sugar in it and now I got it up to 1.048 but still below target if my sugar didn't contaminate it maybe it will be ok? My final volume was a tad over 5 gallons maybe 5.2 gallons.

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

I don't read anything that seems alarming...maybe just relax and ride it out. I bet it will taste good and you will get your process down the more you brew.

 

[Gavin C]

If the gravity sample is hot it will read lower than the true gravity reading.

The sample should be cooled to the calibration temperature of th ehydrometer to give accurate readings of gravity.

Hydrometer calibration temps can vary from device to device

The post boil wort looks very cloudy/starchy.

OG samples are typically very clear (probably not in this case owing to the flaked wheat content in the recipe you posted)

Example

This could point to poor conversion and starch in the wort.

One way to assess your process in the future is to take an accurate measure of the preboil gravity after you have lautered. This coupled with a corrected preboil volume will tell you how good a job you did at mashing.

Just one other question I had an I'm sure I'm reading you wrong. You didn't boil the grain did you? That could lead to a lot of debris in the kettle and a cloudy sample.

 

[brewskiez]

No I didn't boil the grain but I did squeeze the bag even though everything I've read told me not to.

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

If the gravity sample is hot it will read lower than the true gravity reading.

The sample should be cooled to the calibration temperature of th ehydrometer to give accurate readings of gravity.

Hydrometer calibration temps can vary from device to device

The post boil wort looks very cloudy/starchy.

OG samples are typically very clear (probably not in this case owing to the flaked wheat content in the recipe you posted)

Example

This could point to poor conversion and starch in the wort.

One way to assess your process in the future is to take an accurate measure of the preboil gravity after you have lautered. This coupled with a corrected preboil volume will tell you how good a job you did at mashing.

Just one other question I had an I'm sure I'm reading you wrong. You didn't boil the grain did you? That could lead to a lot of debris in the kettle and a cloudy sample.

You posts are always so informative and helpful. When I am thinking of what might be wrong I leave out or don't think about things like the wort temp although I know that to be true...you are very thorough and an asset to the forums.

Also, after reading your last statement...it does read as if he boiled the grain...good question.

 

[brewskiez]

Also the post boil wort was 80 Fahrenheit when I measured og so maybe .004 to temp correct still way off from 1.05

 

[TheMadKing]

No I didn't boil the grain but I did squeeze the bag even though everything I've read told me not to.

squeezing is fine, I do it every time. I suspect that volume is your issue here. What was your strike water volume? preboil volume? post boil volume?

One other thought.. and I'm not intending this as an insult or anything, but did you crush your grain?

 

[Gavin C]

No I didn't boil the grain but I did squeeze the bag even though everything I've read told me not to.

Good.

Squeezing the bag will result in zero problems for your beer.

Anyone who suggests otherwise is incorrect. The theory behind such doom and gloom has no basis in fact. Personal experience is also at odds with that hypothesis.

There is even a commercial brewery that uses a hydraulic press in its mash tun. (I have no doubt many other brewies do it too with less publicity).

Squeeze away.

Not cooling the sample or poor conversion in the mash remain the likliest suspects. (or both)

 

[brewskiez]

I poured about 3.75 gallons of 163 degree water in my bucket and the put the grain bag in stired the grains around and left it for an hour. I would pull the lid and stir it every so often during that hour it soaked. I didn't measure temperature after I poured that water in there and over the hour it was mashing it probably dropped below 150 for sure. I lifted the bag out dumped that wort in my boil pot and then put the bag back in my bucket and dumped another 3.75 gallons of water that was 170degrees over the grain bag and let that soak 20 minutes. Then I dumped this water and squeezed every bit I could out so my boil volume was like 6 gallons and I ended up with 5 and maybe a quart once it was boiled and chilled

 

[brewskiez]

The sample was 80 degrees when I measured it

 

[enkamania]

No I didn't boil the grain but I did squeeze the bag even though everything I've read told me not to.

Nothing wrong with squeezing.

 

[TheMadKing]

I poured about 3.75 gallons of 163 degree water in my bucket and the put the grain bag in stired the grains around and left it for an hour. I would pull the lid and stir it every so often during that hour it soaked. I didn't measure temperature after I poured that water in there and over the hour it was mashing it probably dropped below 150 for sure. I lifted the bag out dumped that wort in my boil pot and then put the bag back in my bucket and dumped another 3.75 gallons of water that was 170degrees over the grain bag and let that soak 20 minutes. Then I dumped this water and squeezed every bit I could out so my boil volume was like 6 gallons and I ended up with 5 and maybe a quart once it was boiled and chilled

Those volumes aren't adding up to me..

3.75+3.75 = 7.5 gallons of mash and sparge water.

the most grain absorption I've ever had from BIAB is 0.25 gallons, and that was with no squeezing and a minimal drain time in a wheat beer.

So how did your preboil volume end up 1.5 gallons down from your mash and sparge water?... I think you might have made a volume measurement error somewhere.

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

I poured about 3.75 gallons of 163 degree water in my bucket and the put the grain bag in stired the grains around and left it for an hour. I would pull the lid and stir it every so often during that hour it soaked. I didn't measure temperature after I poured that water in there and over the hour it was mashing it probably dropped below 150 for sure. I lifted the bag out dumped that wort in my boil pot and then put the bag back in my bucket and dumped another 3.75 gallons of water that was 170degrees over the grain bag and let that soak 20 minutes. Then I dumped this water and squeezed every bit I could out so my boil volume was like 6 gallons and I ended up with 5 and maybe a quart once it was boiled and chilled

See, I think you missed the most important temp reading of the day. Mash temps greatly effect your beer in all sorts of ways. Something I wouldn't guess on even on a lazy day.

 

[brewskiez]

So does it need to be maintained at that temp or just started there?

 

[brewskiez]

Do you boil with the lid on or off?

 

[TheMadKing]

always lid off.. I just noticed something else on your recipe.. it says "flaked white wheat" so did you use flaked wheat or white wheat malt?

You might have just not had enough enzymes if 50% of your grist was unmalted.

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

So does it need to be maintained at that temp or just started there?

The easy anwnser is it needs to be maintained however there is different techniques like "step mashing" and so forth.

The window of error here really ins't that large in my opinion as well. Here is an article on it...

http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/12/20/mash-temperature-and-beer-body-in-all-grain-brewing/

Managing Beer Body in the Mash

The key step in mashing is called the conversion step. Frequently done at a temperature between 146F/63C and 156F/69C, the conversion step breaks down complex sugars in the grains into shorter chains of sugar that can be consumed by yeast. If you are doing a single step infusion mash, the conversion step is your single step.

The temperature of your conversion step determines, in large part, what percentage of the complex sugars are broken down into simpler sugars. This is due to the enzymes active in the mash that break down complex sugars into simpler ones.

The two main enzymes active during the mash are alpha and beta amylase. Alpha amylase, which is most active in the 154-167F/68-75C range, creates longer sugar chains that are less fermentable, resulting in a beer with more body. Beta amylase, which is most active between 130-150F/54-65 C trims off single maltose sugar units that are more fermentable. This results in a more complete fermentation (higher attenuation) and a cleaner beer with a thinner body.

A more complete explanation is as follows: both enzymes work to break longer sugar chains into smaller maltose units that yeast can ferment. Alpha amylase is very flexible as it can break sugars chains up at almost any point, and is useful for creating shorter chains for beta amylase to work on. Beta amylase, in contrast, breaks off single highly fermentable maltose units of sugar, but can only work from the ends of the sugar chain. As a result beta amylase is better at creating single molecule maltose sugars that yeast loves, but it takes longer as it works only from the ends of the molecule. The two enzymes work best when applied in combination which is why we usually mash in the middle temperature range around 153F/67C.

A low step temperature (146-150F/63-66 C) emphasizing beta amylase will therefore result in a more complete conversion to simple sugars, but will take longer to complete. These simple sugars will ferment more readily, producing a highly attenuated beer that has higher alcohol content but less body and mouth-feel.

Conversely, a high temperature conversion step (154F-156F/68-69 C) emphasizing alpha amylase gives you more unfermentable sugars, resulting in lower alcohol content and a full bodied beer with a lot of mouth-feel. Moderate conversion temperatures (150-153F/65-67C) result in a medium body beer. In BeerSmith the mash profiles are labeled light, medium and full bodied to make this selection easy.

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

Oh, and like MadKing said always lid off when boiling! I only put the lid on when I am mashing to help keep the temp regulated.

 

[brewskiez]

I appreciate everyone's feedback I made a few errors I see that probably combined to deliver my poor end results. Next time I will watch my mash temps more carefully and not boil with the lid on.

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

I appreciate everyone's feedback I made a few errors I see that probably combined to deliver my poor end results. Next time I will watch my mash temps more carefully and not boil with the lid on.

Honestly, the beer has potential to turn out to be good still. This is your first all grain trust me...I have messed up some all grain batches and at the end of the day I learn, laugh, and brew another day.

 

[Kharnynb]

when mashing, if you don't have any heat to apply during mash, use an old sleeping bag or duvet to insulate your pot.

also, don't open the mash pot too often, maybe once to stir in the middle of the time.

 

[brewskiez]

My next batch I'm going to just dump the grain in my boil pot and maintain it at the proper temp with the burner then just pour the boil pot into my bucket with a paint strainer in it. Lift the bag of grains out let it drip then put the grains back in boil pot with sparge water.

 

[babaganuj]

My next batch I'm going to just dump the grain in my boil pot and maintain it at the proper temp with the burner then just pour the boil pot into my bucket with a paint strainer in it. Lift the bag of grains out let it drip then put the grains back in boil pot with sparge water.

I have used a similar process before and it worked well.. As long as you have a second vessel to heat your sparge water. Sorry for the formatting, I'm posting from mobile.

1) Heat 7.5 gallons of water to 160F in your boil kettle.
2) Transfer 4 gallons to a second vessel and heat to 168F for sparging.
3) Mash your grains in the boil kettle using biab and the remaining 3.5 gallons of water. Your temperature should stay at 148-156. If it drops too low, turn the burner on LOW and make sure the bag isn't touching the bottom while you heat. Only do this if the temperature drops in the first 30 minutes because most, or all, of your conversation will already be finished and is not worth the risk of melting your bag.
4) Drain wort from boil kettle to third container (fermentation bucket works).
5) Add the sparge water to grains in boil kettle using biab. Temp should not go over 170F.
6) Soak and remove/squeeze bag after 20+ minutes.
7) Add first wort back into boil kettle and boil. Hop (in a strainer bag) as scheduled.

8 ) CLEAN and SANITIZE fermentation bucket!!!

9) When boil is finished, chill to below 70F and transfer to fermentation bucket (try to splash inside to introduce oxygen) .
10) Add yeast and enjoy beer after a few weeks/months + bottling or kegging.

Others have made a good points as well so make sure to think about all the suggestions.

Start to check and record temperatures, gravity, and volumes at each step. This will help improve your beers over time by letting you fine tune your process.

Watch out with adding too much sugar. It will dry your beer out (make alcohol without any residual sweetness or malt flavor) and too much will make your beer taste like gasoline/jet fuel. Unless your only goal is to get drunk, it's okay to have slightly lower alcohol beer rather than disgusting gasoline. This is especially true in beers that should taste malty but not always true for belgian styles (tripel, saison, etc.)

Fermenting at lower temperatures is best if you can't control it very well. If the air temperature is 68F, the fermenting beer is likely 70-75F. Most ale yeasts do best in the 60s and get weird at high temp. This is again untrue for saisons.

At the end of the day, as long as you remain sanitary, you'll make drinkable beer! So RDWHAHB! :beer:

 

[brewskiez]

Thanks that's pretty much how I have it in my head for next time. I used a paint strainer bag and then once the mash was done I used the same bag to put hops in for the boil so I'm not worried about it melting it will hold up I already tested that.

 

[babaganuj]

Thanks that's pretty much how I have it in my head for next time. I used a paint strainer bag and then once the mash was done I used the same bag to put hops in for the boil so I'm not worried about it melting it will hold up I already tested that.

I'd still watch out if the bag and grains are inside while heating. The hops don't weigh it down to the bottom like the grains do. The bottom of the pot will be hot with a fire under it :sly:

 

[Kharnynb]

what i do is:

Heat mash water in kettle to about 161 Fahrenheit.

take the kettle off the heat, and put it on top of one end of an old duvet.
drop in the grains, the mash should cool to about 153-155.
Cover with lid, then wrap in duvet.
Stirr once after 30 minutes.
Lift grain bag after 1 hour, drain and squeeze, drop in bucket with sparge water(not needed if your kettle is big enough for full volume)
stir the bag inside the bucket with water, lift, squeeze and add the "sparge liquid" to the kettle.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=525556

 

[kh54s10]

Using a propane burner with direct fire to the pot for controlling mash temperatures is very difficult. It will heat the liquid at the bottom very hot and the temperature in the middle of the grain and the top will be a lot cooler.

IMO, get the mash temperature right, put the lid on and wrap it in blankets, wait at least 30 minutes of a 60 minute mash before stirring it up. I usually don't do any stirring once I close my mash tun.

The usual suspect with low original gravity when doing all grain is that the grains are not crushed well. BIAB needs a better crush than a traditional all grain setup.

Especially when using Pilsner malts, do not boil with the lid on. You will capture DMS that would escape with the steam and it will condense on the lid, dripping back into the wort. This will not have any effect on your OG, but will give you off flavors.

 

[brewskiez]

So it's been close to three days majority of bubbling done didn't need a blow off tube in the ale pale. I noticed a green residue around my bubbler I thought for sure it was contaminated. I pulled the lid of for a sniff and it kinda smells funky but also smells like Beer/alcohol. This is my first all grain but fourth batch I've never smelled a batch before so I have no reference point for what smells bad three days in. Here's a shot.

 

[babaganuj]

So it's been close to three days majority of bubbling done didn't need a blow off tube in the ale pale. I noticed a green residue around my bubbler I thought for sure it was contaminated. I pulled the lid of for a sniff and it kinda smells funky but also smells like Beer/alcohol. This is my first all grain but fourth batch I've never smelled a batch before so I have no reference point for what smells bad three days in. Here's a shot.

The fermentation looks good. I would make sure to clean the area around the airlock. Green is bad. Also, make sure to spray Star San/sanitizer around the area you're going to re-insert the airlock (filled with Star San or sanitizer).

 

[brewskiez]

I've used iodophor before this is the first time I used star San it bubbled out enough fluid out of the holes on the lid to get low enough to defeat the air lock should I just use water.

 

[babaganuj]

I've used iodophor before this is the first time I used star San it bubbled out enough fluid out of the holes on the lid to get low enough to defeat the air lock should I just use water.

Clean the airlock and the area around it. Fill with a single drop of star san and water to the line on your airlock and you'll be good to go. You can use water but why not just avoid any risks?

 

[Brew_G]

I poured about 3.75 gallons of 163 degree water in my bucket and the put the grain bag in stired the grains around and left it for an hour. I would pull the lid and stir it every so often during that hour it soaked. I didn't measure temperature after I poured that water in there and over the hour it was mashing it probably dropped below 150 for sure. I lifted the bag out dumped that wort in my boil pot and then put the bag back in my bucket and dumped another 3.75 gallons of water that was 170degrees over the grain bag and let that soak 20 minutes. Then I dumped this water and squeezed every bit I could out so my boil volume was like 6 gallons and I ended up with 5 and maybe a quart once it was boiled and chilled

I realize I'm a little late to the party, but this caught my eye.

Did you fill the bag with grain then drop the grain-filled bag into your bucket? Or did you put the bag in the bucket, fill it with strike water, the pour the grains in? Finally, how big is the bag? Does it fit loosely in the bucket or is it a tight fit?

I ask this because I'm wondering if all the grains had proper contact with water during your mash. If they didn't, then that would explain your low mash conversion.

Best practice is to have a bag that's big enough to fit loosely in your bucket/kettle, but has a tight enough fit around the rim to hold it in place. That way, you can put the bag on the bucket/kettle, then fill it with strike water, and finally dump the grains in at a slow to moderate pace while stirring to ensure that dough balls don't form. This is how to get good conversion and maintain a consistent temperature during the mash.

 

[brewskiez]

I used the 5 gallon bag and poured it in slowly with water already in the bucket I did not have clumping at all next batch I will do directly into a water jug and then just dump that water into a bucket with back after its already mashed then lift the bag out strain and put into "sparge water".

Ok update yesterday I pulled the lid off again I'm seriously debating throwing this batch out as I said I dumped pure sugar into the batch after it was cooled to raise the og. This is where I could of induced an infection. Theres a sort of foul odor coming from the batch however when I took a big wiff with my face down in the bucket it almost put my on my backside... it was strong like alcohol strong. I'm guess the yeast tore threw that sugar just fine but if it has a off smell would it ever be worth a lick to drink? It still looks like the last picture I posted and if I had room I would let it run its course but I'm just thinking I might as well get my next batch going if this one is skunked. My last three batches a boch, RIS, tripel all smell good and never had a funky smell which is why I'm concerned however I must add I never smelled them in the first 4 days or so it wasn't until a week or two later when I put them in the secondary carboy to free up my bucket.

 

[ScrewedBrew]

Lots of good tips here. Dumping sugar to increase the OG that much will definitely give it an off flavor and give you a MASSIVE headache! The strong alcohol whiff is from the sugar, and/or high fermentation temperature. The green/brown gunk at the top of the foam is likely hop residue, and normal. Yes, fermentation can smell funky. Worth a lick to drink? Not unless you want a headache.

Now to put on my flame suit. It really is hard to get an infection. The offending bacteria has to compete with the yeast that is winning. Yes, you need to keep everything clean. But it is not uncommon to add stuff during ferment that doesn't infect beer. Such as flavoring, hops, etc. Though it is possible, I doubt the sugar was full of offending bacteria.

 

[brewskiez]

why is it that sugar gives a headache? Im guessing theres reasons other than the high abv.