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I have 2 other interviews processes I am going through as an application developer. One is saying roughly 47k a year, but the position is asking for someone with 2-5 years experience. Right now I have only passed a test they gave me. Another one hasn't mentioned money yet but its closer to home. Both of these were set up by recruiters
 
I wouldn't look into the salary to much, i would say that's in range especially with benefits (if they are good) and the talk of helping towards master, those things go along way. I was in your shoes 8 years ago took even lower just to get my foot in the door and some real world experience after searching for almost a year after school. I was an above average developer out of school with lots of self taught experience and a 3.2 gpa coming out of school. I found out quickly that experience is king in this industry. My salary went up about 35-50% every other year for the next 6 years as I gained experience and made moves that seemed fit.
 
A lot of these services are crap, in my opinion. Some of them allow anyone to go in and punch in their salary without any corroboration whatsoever. Others don't take into account experience (so they throw those with 1 year experience into the same bucket for averaging with those who have 15 years experience). For example, my job TITLE shows that I should be pulling in $10k-$45k more than I am, yet for this area, just having graduated 2 years ago (almost exactly actually) what I'm making is actually on the high end for the area.

They can be a guide, but I wouldn't walk in demanding to match what that shows.

Salary.com has proven to be fairly correct to me in larger cities, not sure about smaller markets. They actually get their info from HR people, not people who put in their own saleries (i.e. glassdoor.com)

That being said, while you don't want to become known as a job hopper, no one is going to look down on you if you take this job, and in 3-4 months jump to a better gig, as long as you stay with that one a while.

A job offer in the inbox, is much better than 1000 job postings online.
 
I am still interning at Siemens medical right now. So I have big company experience. I also just spoke with some friends I have made here in other teams and they said
1) I should not settle so low with my GPA and work exp.
2) They really didn't like how the company was trying to force an answer out of me the moment they made it. I had to fight and tell them I would call today.

I definitely agreed with the forcing me to make a decision so quickly. One friend brought up a good point that they are probably trying to be quick so that they can offer less. If they get me right after I graduate and rush it I don't know what the average is so I will accept thinking its the norm. But like I said I have 2 other interviews one is definitely offering close to 50k and the other sounds like it would be around the same.

I am going to call them back and say I need more time to think about this, especially with the other offers on the table
 
Thanks again. I think if they cover my masters I will take it. Yes, my title will be "Software Engineer".

Be careful with this. Most companies make you sign something that says if you leave in X amount of time after them paying for your school, you have to pay it all back. 12 mos is standard, though I've seen 6-24mos.

I'd suggest making sure you like the job, before commiting to a year or more time with them, unless you are willing to pay the money back.
 
Also, personally for me after working at a few, a startup is at least a 15% premium over other jobs. You have the stress of worring if they are going to make payroll next month, as well as usually are expected to put in a lot more than 40-45 hours, and don't usually get OverTime.
 
Thanks again. I think if they cover my masters I will take it. Yes, my title will be "Software Engineer". I talked to a cousin of mine who started as a QA Analyst and he said he started at 39k a while back, 2006 I think. This position would be for experience only. Just online I keep seeing people saying starting should be around 50k. I know I can easily get by with 40k right now. I am actually 28, I had to work my way through school, lot of money trouble with the family (mom & sisters) and I had to help support. Last year when both the sisters were done and left home to be on their own is when I started full time college so I could finish.

Man, sign of the times, I guess, but I took the lowest offer I had out of UIUC in 1999 (yes I was stupid, but in retrospect, it was probably the right decision as a small company offers a lot of opportunities for breadth of knowledge and experience) in tech and it was 48+ big benefits and stock options...

As for your situation, if they cover education expenses, that makes it pretty damn attractive. JMO, but very few companies these days cover more than some nominal %-age of continuing education costs. Also beware of the payback rules. Some companies hold you accountable for a pro-rated portion of education costs if you leave the company some time T after leaving the company. T is usually 3-5 years if they have such a policy.

Software is a real tough industry these days. So much shipped off to India, China, and Eastern Europe, everyone in US is looking for experienced "high value" people these days.

And since you are in the right "neck of the woods", you might want to see about finding DoD type of jobs as there is definitely some inherent security there that protects you against outsourcing. Again, JMO.
 
Also, personally for me after working at a few, a startup is at least a 15% premium over other jobs. You have the stress of worring if they are going to make payroll next month, as well as usually are expected to put in a lot more than 40-45 hours, and don't usually get OverTime.

The whole point of start-ups is high risk (or stress/hours/lower pay) for potential reward.


If considering a startup, I would ask a lot of questions about business plan, cash assets on hand (how many months of operating expenses do they have in reserve or have funding for?), what is the business plan (what is the goal in the industry they are competing in), and what is the end game for the investors/owners (take over the world vs build a nice niche or product and sell the company to make profit)...

You want to avoid the small companies who think they are going to take over the industry/world unless you really believe in the product and business plan as being revolutionary. Lots of stories in my circle as well as personal experience with guys who ran small companies thinking they were going to take down the huge power players. Those guys are egomaniacs and power addicts... stay away from that if you can. You want the business guy/investor mindset that will make you a return on your "start-up" investment of your time and opportunity cost.
 
lol, i graduated 2 years ago from RIT In Mechanical Engineering (still looking for a job) but i went back for my masters which im finishing up this school year. when it comes down to it, i would figure out how much you owe, then from there see if you can live off 41 minus taxes ext, then see how much money you have left, to support for food, gas ext. this is the reason i didnt take a job for 45, with my loans, i would be living at home for the rest of my life, making min payments, and eating soup every day.
 
It doesn't matter whether or not the pay is good for similar jobs in the industry. Is it good for you? Can you make ends meet at $41K per year? Do you expect a better offer in the near future? Can you live on unemployment benefits until a better offer comes around? Do the math.

VERY roughly, you'll have $30K net after taxes. That's $2,500 / month. Now, subtract your bills. Include rent/mortgage, utilities, insurance, all loans (auto/student/etc). Estimate fuel and groceries. The remainder is what you have to save or spend.

VERY brief/broad brush example:

$1000 rent
$200 utilities (electric, water, sewer, trash)
$200 cell phone/internet/cable
$200 car loan
$100 student loan
$100 car insurance
$150 groceries
$100 gas

$2050 total expenses (note the lack of health insurance - check the company's benefits)

You have $450 left. If you save 10%, you're left with $200/month for spending cash. That means you can take a date to dinner twice and have enough leftover for a few nights of cheap beer and pizza. If you're paying off a credit card, the payment could easily eat up the remainder of your cash.
 
Thanks guys! I just want to make sure that I am not getting some huge low end or something. The company is fairly new about 1 year old. With this job I would be working with a handful of senior levels and actually diving into code and working on new stuff. Languages are Asp.net, c#, SQL, and some others. They mentioned they have something in place to pay for my masters as well ( I told them when I was being interviewed I wanted to go for it).

I just talked to a head hunter in Akron about something else but brought up the languages you mention because that is what my son does. Those are all HOT right now. Problem is everyone wants someone with experience. Stick your foot in the damned door while you can, especially if they will help with grad school. You only need a year before you have some experience under your belt and then another $20K or so per year is more realistic AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME anyhow. Good luck you you.
 
I have gone over that math a couple of times and I know I can scrape by if needed. But I would like to see how these other interviews pan out first. Since the other interviews are saying the job would be between 47-50k a year I want more time. Its really bugging me how they are trying to force an answer out of me within a day of making the offer.
 
Sounds like you may have arrived at an answer on your own. Seems reasonable. I wouldn't necessarily want to work for a company that's being pushy before I'm even an employee.
 
I have gone over that math a couple of times and I know I can scrape by if needed. But I would like to see how these other interviews pan out first. Since the other interviews are saying the job would be between 47-50k a year I want more time. Its really bugging me how they are trying to force an answer out of me within a day of making the offer.

Tell them yes. It doesn't start till Jan 1 anyhow. This is life. If you quite before you start, that is there problem. :D
 
Yeah thats my feeling now. I want more time I think giving me 24 to answer this question is just wrong. And I had to fight on the phone for that 24 hours. Yes this position is great experience but the money is very low. I have crunched the numbers with living away from home a couple of times (Yuri its a bit less than your estimates, GF owns a house and asked me to move in and split costs). Just these forceful tactics are not something that I like. I want to see what the other interviews have to offer because they are moving very fast as well. Also my Supervisor at Siemens is handing my resume to all the places I applied to directly for me so I can cut through the HR bull. I know I have other options, but I want the options not someone saying take it or leave it right now!
 
Who the hell can't live on 41K a year. Especially if you are single and not supporting a family? When I got out of college my starting salary was $42,000 a year and I had more money then I knew what to do with at the time.

Granted inflation and all that have occurred but you can't tell me 41 grand is barely enough to live on.
 
Come on, that's nearly the median household income. Obviously some people have figured out how to live on it.

Okay no need to make him feel bad about demanding a higher salary. People who live off this income typically live in lower cost of living areas. More importantly they don't have the student loans engineers have. Just a bet. Personally, I can't take a job under 65k no matter where I live. If its going to be a major city that number is about 7-10k+ higher. I'm not being obnoxious but my minimum loan payments are $700 a month. I get disgusted at the people who say take any job you can because its better then nothing. Because really, if its not sustainable or leading to something better then it isn't better. You're just digging yourself in a deeper hole.

Definitely wait it out. My opinion on companies that push that hard is the same as what your friends are telling you. They are lowballing you and trying to play on your insecurity of the job market. By pushing immediately after graduation they are hoping that your name isn't out there yet and you have no concrete options. Also, any company that says there's no room for negotiation is probably lying. Most initial salary offers are at least 3-5k lower then what they think your market value is because they intend to negotiate.
 
Thanks, and I am not saying that I can not live on 41k. I've done the math and I know I can. But everyone around me and in my field that I know has told me I can get close to 50k if not over.
 
I started higher than that about 10 years ago, but the market today is pretty different. It is an OK starting salary, and if you don't have anything else you should definitely consider taking it.

It also makes a difference where this job is. If you are talking about somewhere in a major metro area like DC, NYC, or LA I think 41k for that job is a bit rough due to cost of living. If we're talking around State College then it's fine.

EDIT:
The most important thing you can do to improve the situation is to continue updating your resume as you work, even if you never change companies. Keep track of any publications, conferences, training, and major projects that you do and any skills that you gain on the job. Not just technical skills so much as other stuff like communication, leading projects (even small ones), and working with customers.
 
The position is just outside philly. No matter what I am considering but I want to see where these other two interviews will lead as well. I just want more time than 24 hours
 
hey blackdragon...just out of curiousity, are any of the companies you are referencing in the Exton area and creating software in support of the life insurance industry? Seems like an oddly specific question I know, but if any of the companies you are considering match up with the criteria I mentioned, pm me, I may have some insight for you.
 
Pava none are in Exton. Malvern, KOP, and Blue Bell are the locations of all the ones I know of. But if you know of one in Exton let me know :D its close by
 
Ok this really doesn't relate to brewing, well I guess it could if you think I can't brew unless I get a paycheck. I just graduated last Friday from Penn State with a degree in software engineering with a 3.3 GPA. I plan on going for my masters as soon as I get a full time job. No reason to add more debt without an income.

My problem is I received an offer for 41k a year, benefits, and 2 weeks vaca. I'm new to the market so I don't know if this is standard but it seems low from what I have read online. The company is fairly new, but a software company where I would gain A LOT of experience. I tried to talk some more out of them but they would not budge. They also want an answer by today after they made the offer only yesterday. They said they want me to start the first week of Jan so that is the reason for the rush. I just want to make sure I am not being taken advantage of because I am new.

What do you guys think?
(Once again I know its not about brewing, but I've come to trust people on this forum and respect the knowledge they have. That is the reason for putting it on here)

I know a few people that have graduated with software engineering/computer science/and other IT degrees in the last two years (including myself), and the going range seems to be 39-45k for right out of school.

I'd take the job for income, stability, resume building and then worry about finding a dream job/killer offer/etc, but that's just me.
 
It will all boil down to the cost of living there and other costs you have. How much is rent/mortgage going to be? How much are your student loans if you have any? Do you plan on getting a new vehicle (new or used) that you will have to get a loan on?

I went through the same decision (also a software engineer/code monkey) almost exactly 3 years ago (finals week of my last semester) but wasn't pressured to make a decision in 24 hours. I ran the numbers for the local economy and the mid 40s was very decent for the area. I ended up taking the job even though it was the lower end of the spectrum for our profession. I had looked at jobs in big markets and the entry level jobs there had next to no benefits, would put me a good bit of distance away from family (visiting family a few times of year can add to your yearly expenses if you are far away), and their entry salary wasn't as high a % over the average household income. I'm more than happy with my decision now knowing I can retire in 20 years, I have great benefits, and once the fiance and I finally tie the knot next year we can live very comfortably in our area.
 
It will all boil down to the cost of living there and other costs you have. How much is rent/mortgage going to be? How much are your student loans if you have any? Do you plan on getting a new vehicle (new or used) that you will have to get a loan on?

I went through the same decision (also a software engineer/code monkey) almost exactly 3 years ago (finals week of my last semester) but wasn't pressured to make a decision in 24 hours. I ran the numbers for the local economy and the mid 40s was very decent for the area. I ended up taking the job even though it was the lower end of the spectrum for our profession. I had looked at jobs in big markets and the entry level jobs there had next to no benefits, would put me a good bit of distance away from family (visiting family a few times of year can add to your yearly expenses if you are far away), and their entry salary wasn't as high a % over the average household income. I'm more than happy with my decision now knowing I can retire in 20 years, I have great benefits, and once the fiance and I finally tie the knot next year we can live very comfortably in our area.

How are you going to retire in 20 years?

Edit: if you don't mind my asking
 
dragon...unfortunately, I do not, I was merely interested because I know of a place you should stay away from in Exton (as I didn't want you first experience in software development to be a bad one).

I agree that you should push for some time to make your decision (as it seems like you may have a few options on the table.) However, aside from asking for a bit more time (which the company should afford you), I would not walk away from an offer. As many others here have stated, work there for a little while and gain some experience and then find a new position when you have time and while you are actually earning a paycheck.

Just to give you some insight, I took a job for less than what you are talking about back in 2k3 with a major software company (working as a QA Analyst). I worked there for 3 years, the first 2 years I got meager 3% raises and in my final year was able to work out a 10% raise. That year our office closed and as part of my layoff package my manager worked out another 15% raise to 'take with me' to show other employers what I was currently worth. I am on my third company since 2006, unfortunately the first one was heading toward layoffs so even though I liked the job I left before the inevitable happened, the second one (in Exton) even though it payed well had no idea how to develop software (and even worse really didn't want to learn), I am now settled in nicely at the third (have been there for 6 months and have no desire to even consider leaving). I have substantially increased my salary every time I have moved, I have gained experience with many different coding and scripting languages, with different software development methodologies, and I have learned a lot about how to play the corporate game and negotiate in large corporations and in tiny startups. My point is that your starting point really has no bearing on where you end up, it is merely that...a starting point. Be careful of how often and how quickly you jump from job to job, but at the same time, do not be afraid to accept a position, gain experience and then force their hand when it comes time to talk about a salary increase. As a wise friend in my first corporate gig once told me .... when it comes to management there is what they SAY they can do and then there is what they CAN do. Management can always do more than they say they can, there is always more time, more money, and generally even more benefits they can give you. If this place says they can't do any more, you may still want to take the job, but guaranteed if you prove valuable to them and come to them in 6 months with an offer from another company, they will match or beat it.

Good luck with your decision and remember it is just that, your decision. There is no right or wrong here, it is simply a life experience and regardless of what you decide each path will be exciting and different and good if you keep a positive attitude and good friends, good family, and good beer in your life. Cheers and keep us posted on how it goes!!
 

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