Is it a good idea? Calling all Engineeers and Software guys!

[blackdragon82]

Pava thank you for all the insight. I am going to ask for more time but also mention how one other company is on the second interview process but offering 47/48k. I told them yesterday if it were mid 40's I would take it but they would not budge. Because of that I still want more time. I do not want to take this off my plate though. After my interview with them they seemed like a good company and good experience. I was very excited and hoping I would get the job but that money is substantially less than what I expected, and I have other jobs (that I am still going through the interview process with) offering me close if not 50k a year. I would take this job in a heart beat if they raised the $$ to mid 40's, because yes it is great experience but right now because of the pay I want to see what these other companies have to offer.

 

[brewtus_]

$41k > $0k

In this economy, you're lucky to have an offer right out of school. The company probably has a few other candidates ready to take the job if you don't want it.There are plenty of recent graduates without work who are also looking for jobs creating a large pool of potential employees. This makes the employers very selective to who they make offers. Might as well take it if you have no other job offers and see what happens. You can always find something different later on if you find that you don't like it. The experience is invaluable, especially when just starting out in your career. Make sure you read the fine print about tuition reimbursement and/or relocation packages.

 

[mobly99]

Definitely find out more about the program for paying for education. Different places do different things with that, where I am I believe you can only get reimbursed up to 2K per year, so you front the money and are paid back after you get your grades and only for C or better grades. If you spend more than 2K in a single year, you will get it back eventually given that you stay there long enough.

I would say do not turn down any job right now. Sure the pay may be a bit low, but experience is a huge thing. You can continue to look for other jobs with higher pay and be free to play hardball when negotiating salary as you already have a job.

Ask for a written offer letter (or email) that includes details on the tuition reimbursement - if it isn't a written policy that is part of their benefits package then getting something in writing on your offer letter is key.

Other things to ask about are how often are raises given - is is a fixed period? annually, 18 months, whenever they feel like it? What is the average raise? 1% 3%? 5%? Are there any bonuses, are they tied to individual performance or company profitability?

 

[Khemikal]

How are you going to retire in 20 years?

Edit: if you don't mind my asking

Govt job and I got in right before they changed the retirement laws. I however would be a complete idiot if I tried to live off just whatever I was making on base retirement and I plan on either staying here or going back to school so I can start teaching (if I'm not already teaching by that time). What would I do all day retired in my mid 40s if all my friends are still working???

Which brings up some other good questions I haven't seen mentioned, or I missed. Along with the 41k base salary, what other benefits do you get? Do you get free health insurance? How does your time off accumulate and roll over from year to year? How about sick time? How does overtime work, is it time-for-time, time and a half, compensation time? Can you change how your overtime gets charged paycheck to paycheck or are you locked into only one option?

 

[blackdragon82]

Update:

I just called them back and said I'm sorry but I need more time. While I really do want this position and the experience they are talking about, I have two interviews this week that have already the job pays between 47-50k. They said they "sweeten the pot" for me but would not hit 50k. I said I understand that its a startup and the money is not there like that, but they are going to call me back with a new number later today and about the school tuition.

Khemikal: Not sure about the OT but benefits are $60-70 a month for a whole package

 

[pava]

Outstanding...it still may not be the number that you want, but as I mentioned before there is a difference between what the SAY they can do and what they CAN do. I know you said you asked for more initially, but when you came back and told them about your additional opportunities, the reality of what they CAN do seems to have changed. 'Good on ya' for being bold enough to ask for more time and for doing it in a respectful way (enough that they were willing to reconsider rather than hang up on you).

 

[blackdragon82]

Thanks, I worked for a company going through college that screwed me over every chance they could. When I started there I was a quiet guy who just did what he was told, and I would watch promotions go by, people placing blame on me, small raises, you name it. They felt that since I never said anything yet still worked they could keep it up. After a while I learned how to play their business game. Even though to this day I still hate that job with a passion (I have a pic at my desk of the restaurant saying "You could be working here") but they taught me to speak up for myself and stand up properly. Once again thank you everyone on here. All the advice and what to expect has been so informative. Like I stated at the start of this thread I really appreciate the people on this board and everyone always seems to be honest yet fair. Thank you all and I will keep things updated!!

 

[tallybrewer]

Jump on it, son.

 

[Khemikal]

While they want you to respond in the next few hours, who says you can't later down the road. Let them know you have the other job interviews currently and would like to get back to them after those happen. If either of those jobs toss an offer to you, go back to the first place and see if the idea of you going elsewhere is enough for them to bump up their offering.

 

[PirateBrewer]

What was the outcome of all this? What did the one company sweeten the pot to? Have you heard anything from those other companies that you were going to interview with?

 

[blackdragon82]

I have interviewed with the other 2 and should hear something by late this week. They both are offering a little over 50k, with benefits and college. The original offer did what some expected from a start up. They bumped up the offer to 43k. Then the next day called and said sorry but they are having internal conflicts and still weren't sure if hiring now is their best solution since they haven't deployed their product yet. They said around January 17th they will probably want to hire then and I will be called without need of an interview if I'm still interested. So I have pretty much wiped them off the slate.

Also my internship is finally coming around (very large company and have to wait for HR to pass on my resume to the managers) and I got an email last Thursday from a manager saying he has a job for me and will set up a meeting after the new year. So this is the one I am hoping for but at least I have others, and still keep getting phone calls from new jobs asking for interviews.

 

[jds]

Glad to hear you're finding some other options. As an engineer (like about half of the rest of HBT), I can tell you that your degree and GPA will get you your first job, but what you do in your first job will get you all your other jobs.

What I'm saying is that you need to consider opportunities to learn new stuff and grow with a company as well as salary. I took my first job at a low salary for my degree and GPA, but I learned a HUGE amount with a startup spinoff of a manufacturing company, and within three years was one of the principal engineers, making more than double my initial salary. Advancement options are worth a whole lot compared to salary for entry-level engineers, IMO.

Of course, software may be different from manufacturing in that respect. Not my specialty, so take my advice with a huge grain of salt.

 

[jmferris]

Of course, software may be different from manufacturing in that respect. Not my specialty, so take my advice with a huge grain of salt.

I don't find it to be too different, in my experience. For me, I actually dropped out of college in my second year to get into the market. At the time (about thirteen/fourteen) years ago, getting a foot in the door was easy. Getting the experience under my belt from that job, and the ones that have followed, have always led me to better and better positions. At least where I am now, I have no desire to move on. Not like I have switched companies often, more as when they either shut their doors, were about to shut their doors, or just were not IS/IT-friendly.

I never went back to school, and do not regret it at all. After you get a certain amount of experience, the degree will not change anything. Sure, some companies do not want to interview without such-and-such a degree, but there are plenty that do. Having been in a position to directly hire subordinates over the last few years, I also have emphasized experience over education - which has worked out well.

To the OP, the one thing that I can share is that you need to find the best combination of a job that can sustain you, while also giving you the experience and confidence you need to advance. The first few jobs that you have in the industry will likely not be roles within the same company, rather that the companies will be steps leading up to better and better positions.

Best of luck! :rockin:

 

[Khemikal]

Glad to hear things are moving along.

As for the difference in software, we might do things a little differently than normal manufacturing. I've been "grading" coding tests we have sent out to our potential applicants for our current open position. This seems a common practice in the software industry right now. This has helped us weed out a ton of applicants who have pretty resumes but do not have the skills to get the job done. You would be surprised at the number of tests I've got from people who have just graduated but can't do very basic programming logic (if/then/else, proper loop control, etc).

If you're willing to move around and hunt for the best paying jobs you should be able to jump to a new job after 3-5 years at your first one. This will get you past the entry level positions and into a higher paying bracket.

 

[blackdragon82]

This has helped us weed out a ton of applicants who have pretty resumes but do not have the skills to get the job done. You would be surprised at the number of tests I've got from people who have just graduated but can't do very basic programming logic (if/then/else, proper loop control, etc).

I've had a couple positions give me tests and I thought they were pretty easy but each place told me I did very well on them. So I can only come to the same come to the same conclusion. haha Glad to know I'm doing well

My plan is in a couple years (2 or 3) start looking to get into the next bracket, that should also be the time I finish my masters so things will work out well after all of that :rockin: I hope :/

 

[Dogphish]

The market must REALLY be turning around. I just got called out of the blue and offered $55k as a Jr. Web Developer.

I have 2 years experience and a bachelors Computer Science degree, fired from last job. After giving up on Monster.com for 4 months, I logged in for the first time in a long time. The next day a recruiter found my resume, called me out of the blue, and got me an offer for $55k (was only making $45k to $52k before I got fired).

Miracles happen.

 

[Khemikal]

I've had a couple positions give me tests and I thought they were pretty easy but each place told me I did very well on them. So I can only come to the same come to the same conclusion. haha Glad to know I'm doing well

My plan is in a couple years (2 or 3) start looking to get into the next bracket, that should also be the time I finish my masters so things will work out well after all of that :rockin: I hope :/

I too thought the test was easy. I did make a few mistakes that I was able to laugh about when I got a reply back. I forgot the return statement at the end of a function . Apparently I did really well outside of that because I got an offer two days later and now the one doing the grading of the tests.

 

[blackdragon82]

Well the one that tested me has called me back on a second interview. I think he went to too many management seminars in his life. All of his questions were "What can you bring to the company?", "What makes you different?". Every interview I have been on up until now has been very technical. He wanted straight short answers and would stop me when I would explain my work. He said he knows I am good at the technical aspect because I passed the test. Oh well we shall see on the next one.

 

[jmferris]

Well the one that tested me has called me back on a second interview. I think he went to too many management seminars in his life. All of his questions were "What can you bring to the company?", "What makes you different?". Every interview I have been on up until now has been very technical. He wanted straight short answers and would stop me when I would explain my work. He said he knows I am good at the technical aspect because I passed the test. Oh well we shall see on the next one.

That is an encouraging sign, though. For a technical position, the technical interview is generally the first part of a few parts. With most places, you should expect to see a technical screening, technical interview (may be part of the screening), then the "culture fit" sort of questions. These are generally required by HR departments, but I have seen smaller companies with no formal HR do them as well.

These questions very purposely see how you might work with others, handle situations under pressure, etc. Commonly when you get to these types of questions, the technical part is mostly over.

Curious - has anyone given you an actual coding test in the interviews? Something like having to write pseudocode for a hypothetical situation, etc.

 

[blackdragon82]

Oh yeah. Almost everyone has given me some type of test. This company emailed me a test, and I had to have that same email back in 1hour. For the most part I do well with them. I had one or two companies ask me stuff that seemed a little higher end for a college grad. One wanted a fully functioning program with calendar functions, etc, etc. For the most part they are pretty basic stuff though.

 

[blackdragon82]

Update:

I received and offer yesterday from one of my other interviews I previously mentioned!!! When I received the offer package email my jaw almost dropped. They offered me 55k a year, 3 weeks vaca, 5 sick days, full benefits, 1.5x annual salary in life insurance, and assistance up to 5k per semester for my masters. I just signed the offer and sent it out!! I will be working with Sharepoint, CRM, C#, ASP.net, with little bit of SQL and Javascript. I start January 18th.

I want to thank everyone on here for all the advice and support!! I can't wait and tonight I get to use my new angle grinder on the keg my cousin got me for xmas (it was legal he knows the owner of a distributor that had some dented kegs). What a great way to start the new year

 

[pava]

Congrats!!!! I'm glad it all worked out for you, that is a great salary, especially just starting out! Now go out there and prove you're worth it!!

 

[integrator]

I think you need to make a beer to celebrate this occasion..... Call it The Offer

CONGRATS!

 

[blackdragon82]

I was planning on making my first lager this weekend. And now it has a name

 

[IrregularPulse]

Awesome to hear! Congrats!

 

[PirateBrewer]

Nice! Glad to hear it all worked out in your favor! Cheers to that my friend!

 

[Randar]

WooHoo! That is a very nice offer, so Congrats!

 

[RegionalChaos]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I don't know about working full time and getting a masters degree. I have a masters in Comp. Sci, and I worked part time at a software company during that. I have no clue how I was able to make it happen. At the end of the quarter I would be up everynight until 2 or 3 am, then wake up at 7am and start all over again. The weekend? What was that? End of the quarter I would just work non-stop for about 4-5 weeks. I would not be working at the software company at that time, they were flexible and understanding. I can't imaging holding a full time job and getting a masters degree. I was also a GTF during that time. Good luck with it all!

 

[RandyKlein]

My advice, evaluate a first job based on the experience you will get and not money. The first job out of school is the hardest to get. Not many companies want to take the chance on someone fresh out of school. Once you get a year or two of experience under your belt, then take your experience and go somewhere else and make lots of money. It will be a whole lot easier to get a job once you have experience. I'm assuming $41k is a whole lot than you are making now, so you should be fine living on it. I was a technical recruiter for a few years, so I have a little experience with this.

 

[blackdragon82]

The position I took was mostly for experience at first, when they told me the salary I was amazed! It is a new position in the company I will be the only developer working on these applications, with some very popular technology I will be working on. I was making 39k as an intern so 41k did seem low, but I still considered the job because it would have been just as good of experience as the first offer.