Sugar Wine (or Kilju, prison wine, hooch... whatever you want to call it) Question

[bracconiere]

Literally, I am just trying to make a sugar wine.

well, yeast need nutes. i believe you could add molases? i've made rumbullion before....and it would still be 'sugar wine'? i have no idea how much you'd have to add though.

but molasses is only about 50% fermentable, so keep that in mind....(that'd be something else to try, use light brown sugar for your next eperiment i honestly don't know what would happen with that!)

 

[The Experimenter]

Not sure if anyone will see this since it has been almost a week since the last post in this thread (does HomeBrewTalk notify you when the OP posts a reply in a thread you responded to, even if that reply isn't directed at you? I'm new here, still not sure what you will and won't get notifications about)

Anyway, I just wanted to post an update about my Sugar Wine.

Taking the recommendation of bracconiere (and others who made similar comments) I went out and looked for wheat germ... I did not find any in my local grocery store in the aisle where Bob's Red Mill products usually are, so I went and checked online to see if I could find something... then, while sitting there on my computer next to the fermenter, I noticed more bubbling than usual. Rather than bubbling once every 30-40 seconds like it had over the past couple of weeks, it was now bubbling once every 15-20 seconds. That was almost a week ago and it is still going at this rate today. Additionally, I tested it yesterday. On Saturday the 2nd, it was 1.078. Yesterday it read 1.060. It dropped 18 points in a week whereas it had been averaging a 13-15 point drop per week over the preceding 2 or 3 weeks before that.

I don't know why it picked up, but it is now going faster and working on its own. It will still take a while to finish, but for now I've decided to hold off on the Wheat Germ. I'll keep that option in my back pocket in case it all of a sudden slows down or stops again.

 

[NGD]

One plausible explanation is the ambient temp where the fermenter is located has risen. There are many other variables which could lead to an increase in fermentation but that’s the first thing that comes to mind.

 

[bracconiere]

thanks for the update! i'd guess like doug said, that the yeast are dying and canibilizing themselves? not sure, and surprised your grocery doesn't carry wheat germ.

they carry this at my local safeway.

https://www.safeway.com/shop/product-details.960075799.html

 

[The Experimenter]

So... it finally stopped. It wound up at 1.046 (12.5% abv) and won't go any lower. It tastes alright. The K1V produced A LOT of citrusy esters that make it almost taste like it has been flavored with Lemon-Lime flavoring syrup and combined then with how much sugar is left yields a very sweet and fruity wine (for comparison, in my experience, Mott's Apple Juice usually measures about 1.046 before brewing, so I'm guessing this brew has about the same amount of sugars... iow ~17.5g of sugar per 5 ounce serving). When I drink it, I add a dash of lemon (and/or lime) juice to it to enhance the citrusy notes and to temper the sweetness.

I'm certainly not disappointed with this outcome... but also not thrilled or anything like that (which is fine, I did this as an experiment and had low expectations). I'm not rushing to replicate this any time soon but it's also not the worst brew I've ever had and it is fairly drinkable. I might make something like this somewhere down the line with a modified recipe (mainly less sugar so it doesn't come out so sweet), but it is certainly not at the top of my list right now.

 

[bernardsmith]

So you would want to try to figure out why the yeast stopped consuming sugar with more than a pound of fermentable sugar per gallon if the starting gravity was 1.141 (the yeast having fermented to about 13% ABV. Could be a problem with insufficient nutrients in the solution at the beginning. Might be some other problem but nothing in wine making happens for no reason and everything a wine maker normally does or does not do; every part of the process has a reason and has an effect.

 

[The Experimenter]

So you would want to try to figure out why the yeast stopped consuming sugar... nothing in wine making happens for no reason and everything a wine maker normally does or does not do; every part of the process has a reason and has an effect.

Yeah, I’d certainly like to know why, but I neither have the tools/equipment nor the brewing experience (I’ve been doing this less than a year) to figure out on my own why it stopped.

 

[bracconiere]

i just looked up K1V yeast it says 18% alcohol tolerance....but in my experience, they're being hyperbolic. best i've EVER seen a yeast do is 16%, even the stuff with wild claims of 20%....


i'm really surprised this fermented without some nutes though, so who knows....

(and if anything, the "distillers yeast" claiming 20%, only went to about 13-14%, IIRC....got 16% repitching turbo yeast that said 18%)

 

[The Experimenter]

i'm really surprised this fermented without some nutes though, so who knows....

I never said there were no nutrients... in fact, I specifically made a point of explaining that nutrients AND yeast energizer were added both at the start and at two different points after that (including during the attempt to unstick the ferment)... but maybe it wasn’t enough nutrients (of maybe too much)?

 

[bracconiere]

I never said there were no nutrients... in fact, I specifically made a point of explaining that nutrients AND yeast energizer were added both at the start and at two different points after that (including during the attempt to unstick the ferment)... but maybe it wasn’t enough nutrients (of maybe too much)?

i just remembered the DAP...which is just a nitrogen source...

 

[The Experimenter]

i just remembered the DAP...which is just a nitrogen source...

Oh... my bad. It is packaged and sold as "nutrient", so I figured it was a nutrient. Is it not?

What defines a "nutrient"? I mean, isn't a nutrient any chemical or compound that allows an organism to function more efficiently and maintain good health? Or is there a more formal brewer's definition of nutrient that excludes DAP from being included?

 

[bracconiere]

Oh... my bad. It is packaged and sold as "nutrient", so I figured it was a nutrient. Is it not?

What defines a "nutrient"? I mean, isn't a nutrient any chemical or compound that allows an organism to function more efficiently and maintain good health? Or is there a more formal brewer's definition of nutrient that excludes DAP from being included?

i have tried so hard to find a patent on a "turbo yeast" to find out. but dap is just a nitrogen source, and mildly helps. i would assume normally yeast would prefer some amino acids for nitrogen.

in my humble opion the best use of DAP i can think of, would be for your future hop plants?

you're the experimenter, so buy a pouch of turbo, and you'll hit 16% in ONE day...so there be some super dupper nutes going on it that stuff....

(like i said i've been trying to figure out the secret!)

 

[marc1]

Oh... my bad. It is packaged and sold as "nutrient", so I figured it was a nutrient. Is it not?

What defines a "nutrient"? I mean, isn't a nutrient any chemical or compound that allows an organism to function more efficiently and maintain good health? Or is there a more formal brewer's definition of nutrient that excludes DAP from being included?

It's a yeast nutrient, but it's not everything yeast need to grow well. Compare:

https://www.morebeer.com/products/diammonium-phosphate-dap-yeast-nutrient.html
https://www.morebeer.com/products/fermaid.html
https://www.morebeer.com/products/fermaid-yeast-nutrient.html

 

[The Experimenter]

you're the experimenter, so buy a pouch of turbo, and you'll hit 16% in ONE day...so there be some super dupper nutes going on it that stuff....

(like i said i've been trying to figure out the secret!)

Right you are! I am the experimenter and experiment I shall!... I mean not right away. I've already got like 6 other experiments and test batches going, but I'll definitely add it to the list.

 

[The Experimenter]

It's a yeast nutrient, but it's not everything yeast need to grow well. Compare:

https://www.morebeer.com/products/diammonium-phosphate-dap-yeast-nutrient.html
https://www.morebeer.com/products/fermaid.html
https://www.morebeer.com/products/fermaid-yeast-nutrient.html

Thanks for the links and resources. Links are always appreciated!!

 

[The Experimenter]

By the way, I should point out that what I have been calling "yeast energizer" (because that's what it is packaged as by LD Carlson) is DAP, Springcell, and Magnesium Sulphate.

I'm not mentioning that in response to anyone in particular, I just thought I should define what the "energizer" I've been talking about is just so we're all on the same page.

Edit: The thing that made me realize that I should identify what my "energizer" is, was the link posted by marc1. I followed the Fermaid O link and was immediately struck by how similar it looks to the energizer I have. They both are an ultra-fine light yellow powder/dust (I'm not saying it's the same thing, but it made me wonder how similar they are and made me realize that I never really defined what my "energizer" was)

 

[Neeb]

You can add ACAI powder in, which contains sugar, magnesium, iron, zinc, calcium and phosphorus. I mention those specifically because those help feed yeast. You would probably want to filter it out afterward but only for sediment reasons, though you could totally drink it without filtering. Not really a fan of Kilju, and I don't mean the taste either. Maybe if an expert made some and it sat for 3 months.

 

[The Experimenter]

You can add ACAI powder in, which contains sugar, magnesium, iron, zinc, calcium and phosphorus. I mention those specifically because those help feed yeast. You would probably want to filter it out afterward but only for sediment reasons, though you could totally drink it without filtering. Not really a fan of Kilju, and I don't mean the taste either. Maybe if an expert made some and it sat for 3 months.

Thanks for the tip. I already bottled it, but maybe the next time I have a struggling brew I might try that.

I understand not liking Kilju, I'm not a huge fan either. I was just experimenting. Luckily one of my family members likes the final outcome (which I mixed with some lemon juice and lime juice when bottling into 12oz bottles, which they say tastes sort of like a cheap Limoncello to them), so someone will drink it at least... I might have a bottle or two as well, but IMO it's not great stuff.

 

[The Experimenter]

As I said at some point earlier in this thread, I’m relatively new to brewing and still learning things. I was just on YouTube watching a video from “Doin’ the Most” and he was talking about “inverting” sugar, which I am just now learning about for the first time.

I never inverted the sugar on this sugar wine. I did not use hot water or an acid to help break the sucrose down into glucose and fructose (I had used luke-warm/warm water; I had put the sugar in the water at room temp and then heated it on the stove and stirred until the sugar was all dissolved; but it never got terribly hot, no more than 110-120°F before it was all dissolved and I took it off the heat)…

Maybe that’s why this brew struggled so much and took so long... because I didn’t invert the sugar properly? Any thoughts on this?

 

[bernardsmith]

I suspect that yeast don't need the sugars to be inverted to be able to consume and ferment them. They prefer glucose because it is a little easier to ferment than sucrose so in any solution the yeast go after glucose before sucrose. But that's a lot like us: we , as a species, tend to prefer to consume simple sugars to complex carbohydrates.

My guess is that the struggle the yeast had to ferment the sugars in solution (the must) was because sugars in and of themselves contain very few of the compounds yeast need to be able to reproduce and repair cell structures. Yeast need nitrogen , oxygen, B vitamins, amino acids, calcium, potassium, zinc, and magnesium and many other trace metals and minerals. Sugar is a nutritional desert for yeast. Malted barley (wort) is not, so brewers rarely have to worry about feeding the nutritional needs of yeast, but wine makers can rarely avoid this, though some fruit is naturally rich in these compounds. Table sugar and honey are not.

 

[The Experimenter]

I suspect that yeast don't need the sugars to be inverted to be able to consume and ferment them. They prefer glucose because it is a little easier to ferment than sucrose so in any solution the yeast go after glucose before sucrose. But that's a lot like us: we , as a species, tend to prefer to consume simple sugars to complex carbohydrates.

My guess is that the struggle the yeast had to ferment the sugars in solution (the must) was because sugars in and of themselves ce any of tontain very few of the compounds yeast need to be able to reproduce and repair cell structures. Yeast need nitrogen , oxygen, B vitamins, amino acids, calcium, potassium, zinc, and magnesium and many other trace metals and minerals. Sugar is a nutritional desert for yeast. Malted barley (wort) is not, so brewers rarely have to worry about feeding the nutritional needs of yeast, but wine makers can rarely avoid this, though some fruit is naturally rich in these compounds. Table sugar and honey are not.

Ok, thank you.