Is Cider the fastest fermenting beverage there is?

[dmtaylor]

I don't ever use it!

Me neither.

 

[Gameface]

I'm new to fermentation, and I just recently started fermenting a number of different juices in parallel: Martinelli's apple juice, grape juice, cherry juice, pomegranate juice, and peach juice. I started them all at the same brix level, and am using the same Premier Cuvee yeast in all of them. What's noteable is that the bubbler on the Martinelli's has been going probably 2x the speed of the next fastest (grape) for the same volume of liquid. Is there something about apple juice (its Ph or maybe some thing else) that makes it far more favorable to rapid fermentation than the other juices?

Bubbles will come out of an airlock considerably faster if there is a little less water in that airlock compared to the other ones.

The bubble-o-meter is a horribly inaccurate measurement device.

 

[Blacksmith1]

I Never get sulphur/rhino farts using S04....and never use nutrients. My OG is always north of 1.06 via juice + FAJC. My ferment temp is always below 68F - typically 64-66F. It cold crashes Great...and the lees end up very solid...leaving a crystal clear cider for me.

Goes to show ya....different folks w/different protocols end up with different results.

Living on the edge of the tropics I was in a tee shirt in my motorcycle today. Since I'm about 6-7 miles from the Gulf of Mexico the water table is too high for a cellar or basement. This leaves me with my A/C to control temps, and the wife will kill me if I try to keep it anywhere near that cold.

So for those of us in this position, yeasts that like higher temps are the answer. After using the S-04 I found out that S-05 likes higher temps.

 

[bmd2k1]

Living on the edge of the tropics I was in a tee shirt in my motorcycle today. Since I'm about 6-7 miles from the Gulf of Mexico the water table is too high for a cellar or basement. This leaves me with my A/C to control temps, and the wife will kill me if I try to keep it anywhere near that cold.

So for those of us in this position, yeasts that like higher temps are the answer. After using the S-04 I found out that S-05 likes higher temps.

Jealous! Frikn chilly Michigan here [emoji43]

Saison yeasts....I've heard....are also good warmer weather suckers...though I haven't used yet. Cheers [emoji111]

 

[Blacksmith1]

As time passes I will try several wine and ale yeasts to see which like my house.

 

[CKuhns]

SO4 never an issue with sulfur when fermenting <66 and the yeast started a full day or more ahead of pitch and do add additional nutrients. Ciders clears very well with a relatively solid yeast cake but I always cold crash for a week or so and only do FAJC with some fruit on occasion in secondary.

 

[applescrap]

Ok, next time I make some, I will report back. Done or not, visually I dont recall it looking "ready" quickly. And that is coming from a self-professed lazy Brewer who has been known to rack beer 7 days later, force carbonate it, and drink it warm while watching football on Sunday. More than once. I could be wrong and not remembering the time right. I don't know what you're looking for but I posted an amazing recipe for a super simple cider that you can't go wrong with. For some reason this batch has a little more apple flavor or maybe I am day dreaming.

 

[NeverDie]

I posted an amazing recipe for a super simple cider that you can't go wrong with.

Is this the one?
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/daddys-orchard-black-cherry-cider-recipe.659494/

 

[NeverDie]

Living on the edge of the tropics I was in a tee shirt in my motorcycle today. Since I'm about 6-7 miles from the Gulf of Mexico the water table is too high for a cellar or basement. This leaves me with my A/C to control temps, and the wife will kill me if I try to keep it anywhere near that cold.

So for those of us in this position, yeasts that like higher temps are the answer. After using the S-04 I found out that S-05 likes higher temps.

I have the same issue as you regarding temps. I'm afraid S-04 won't have much of a window when I can use it.

Anyone know whether S-05 clears as rapidly as S-04?

 

[applescrap]

Is this the one?
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/daddys-orchard-black-cherry-cider-recipe.659494/

Yep. Thanks for linking it. Hey, how do you all do that. Thats pretty clever. Anyways thats it. The more I think of it, there is no reason to take that juice out of the factory sealed and sanitized container. Want to put a bung in the hole sure. (I could run with this ). Anyways, logically I cant find any good reason for removing the juice. The organic black cherry is amazeballs, and this simple recipe saved Christmas. We drank all the wine on Christmas Eve . But everyone loves it and my wife actually drinks it occasionally. Heck its only apple juice and organic black cherry, thats it. I splashed some fireball in it once. Maybe a splash of vodka? Idk. Hope someone gives it a try!

ps-two packs of juice, they come in a 2 pack of 1 g containers, so 4g juice and 4 quarts of black cherry and that makes one perfectly full happy corny

pps-what does fermented grape juice, pineapple juice, black cherry, cranberry juice, etc...taste like. I have been wondering?

 

[NeverDie]

Yep. Thanks for linking it. Hey, how do you all do that. Thats pretty clever. Anyways thats it. The more I think of it, there is no reason to take that juice out of the factory sealed and sanitized container. Want to put a bung in the hole sure. (I could run with this ). Anyways, logically I cant find any good reason for removing the juice. The organic black cherry is amazeballs, and this simple recipe saved Christmas. We drank all the wine on Christmas Eve . But everyone loves it and my wife actually drinks it occasionally. Heck its only apple juice and organic black cherry, thats it. I splashed some fireball in it once. Maybe a splash of vodka? Idk. Hope someone gives it a try!

ps-two packs of juice, they come in a 2 pack of 1 g containers, so 4g juice and 4 quarts of black cherry and that makes one perfectly full happy corny

pps-what does fermented grape juice, pineapple juice, black cherry, cranberry juice, etc...taste like. I have been wondering?

I think it may depend on how long you ferment it. If you ferment it for only 5 or so days days, then fermented Concorde grape tastes a lot like Mogen David Concorde wine, which is a sweet wine you can buy in the store.

I saw a youtube video where a guy who had fermented apple wine and concorde grape wine all the way to completion using baker's yeast said they tasted virtually identical! Go figure.

That said, I have both one black cherry wine and one grape wine fermenting right now (al beit with a wine yeast), so I'll be putting that theory to the test.

I have my doubts about things like pineapple wine. If it was any good, people would be buying it at the store and drinking it. Right? Yet, I've never heard of that. I'm not saying someone isn't doing exactly that, but I've just never heard of it before.

 

[applescrap]

Thanks for replying. Haha, I am Jewish so I am very familiar with mogen david. Yeah, not sure I need to make any of that. Funny you mention that test. I erased this part from my original post but am going to add it now. I dont want to piss anyone off but I am wondering how much juice quality really matters within reason. Especially considering how it is backsweetened. I mean dry it makes sense a difference might be larger, but flavored and spiced? Brulosophy did a test with generic oj and "quality" juice from trader joes. After 3 cans concentrate backsweeten the results showed strongly that a difference was seen. Perhaps the concentrate negated the quality juice. I know, I know, its just a test and they dont know anything, but it opened my curiosity for sure as has my experiences with cider. Or at least I am telling myself that to live with the sams aj. I tasted it and it tastes plenty good, not amazing but certainly not bad.

 

[Maylar]

When should I add the pectic enzyme?

Up front - either 12 hrs before or during pitch.

 

[Maylar]

I Never get sulphur/rhino farts using S04....and never use nutrients.

You will... I promise

 

[NeverDie]

Argh. What has thrown me off regarding the S-04 yeast is that the seller says its ideal fermentation range is Optimum temp: 64°-75° F (https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/safale-s-04-whitbread), but the datasheet claims it is 59-68F (https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/SafAle-S-04.pdf). That may not seem like much difference, but if the datasheet is right, then it is below room temperature, which makes it a non-starter for me.

 

[Maylar]

Is there any way you could rig up some sort of temperature control? Even a swamp cooler would help.

 

[NeverDie]

Well, anything is possible. But is this particular yeast so great that it's worth it? At this time of year I could maybe ferment S-04 in the garage, but maybe not for longer than one batch before things start warming up.

Hopefully the kveik's will do well. I should receive them this Friday. If they perform well, then maybe it becomes moot.

 

[Maylar]

I don't do summer ciders any more. When I started making cider I used some Nottingham ale yeast at about 75°F and the fusel alcohols were so awful that I just dumped the whole batch.

 

[NeverDie]

I don't do summer ciders any more. When I started making cider I used some Nottingham ale yeast at about 75°F and the fusel alcohols were so awful that I just dumped the whole batch.

Hmmm.. Have you ever tried a kveik yeast?

 

[Maylar]

Nope. I don't want a warm fast ferment. There are aromatics and subtle flavors in cider that you can only get when fermenting cold and slow. You don't seem to get that (yet).

 

[bmd2k1]

Argh. What has thrown me off regarding the S-04 yeast is that the seller says its ideal fermentation range is Optimum temp: 64°-75° F (https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/safale-s-04-whitbread), but the datasheet claims it is 59-68F (https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/SafAle-S-04.pdf). That may not seem like much difference, but if the datasheet is right, then it is below room temperature, which makes it a non-starter for me.

I'd go with the datasheet [emoji16]

It's been a great yeast for me when fermented in mid to lower 60s.

 

[NeverDie]

Nope. I don't want a warm fast ferment. There are aromatics and subtle flavors in cider that you can only get when fermenting cold and slow. You don't seem to get that (yet).

Oh, you're right, I didn't get that. I thought the temp range was just a function of the yeast strain and that doing a kveik at room temperature (which is the low end of its range) would maybe get similar results. But you seem to be saying that not only won't that work, but it couldn't work even in principle, regardless of what the yeast strain is, purely because of the temperature. Is that what you are meaning?

 

[bmd2k1]

If ur temps are gonna be above 70F....try a Saison yeast. There are threads that discuss em...

Here's just one
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/544778/

 

[Maylar]

Oh, you're right, I didn't get that. I thought the temp range was just a function of the yeast strain and that doing a kveik at room temperature (which is the low end of its range) would maybe get similar results. But you seem to be saying that not only won't that work, but it couldn't work even in principle, regardless of what the yeast strain is, purely because of the temperature. Is that what you are meaning?

I'm not saying that, because I've never used a yeast that was rated for warmer temps. Maybe someone else has experience with that and can give us an idea of what to expect.

But I do know that a 10 degree difference (65 to 75 for instance) with the same yeast makes a huge difference in the final product, even if that's well within the range of the particular yeast.

There's a fella named Claude Jolicoeur who's book The New Cidermaker's Handbook is the accepted reference on the subject in our time. Jolicoeur's methods are to use EC-1118 which is a "very fast" yeast, but at 50°F - which is below the spec's minimum. He racks off the lees at about 50% gravity to slow the ferment way down. Then racks again somewhere around 1.008 to slow it down some more. From pitch to bottling his cider takes 10 months. Yes, months. That's how you make world class cider.

Fast is the enemy of great.

 

[Blacksmith1]

Great info. useless to me as I can't guarantee 60 2 days in a row much less 50. I'm beginning to think those of us in warmer climates need to start doing our own yeast experiments and noting any differences. sometimes it sucks to live in paradise.

 

[NeverDie]

I'm not saying that, because I've never used a yeast that was rated for warmer temps. Maybe someone else has experience with that and can give us an idea of what to expect.

But I do know that a 10 degree difference (65 to 75 for instance) with the same yeast makes a huge difference in the final product, even if that's well within the range of the particular yeast.

There's a fella named Claude Jolicoeur who's book The New Cidermaker's Handbook is the accepted reference on the subject in our time. Jolicoeur's methods are to use EC-1118 which is a "very fast" yeast, but at 50°F - which is below the spec's minimum. He racks off the lees at about 50% gravity to slow the ferment way down. Then racks again somewhere around 1.008 to slow it down some more. From pitch to bottling his cider takes 10 months. Yes, months. That's how you make world class cider.

Fast is the enemy of great.

Is there a world class cider that I can buy in the store? If so, can you recommend one (or more) to me? I'd like to try one to get an idea as to what the target should be. In this cider realm, it's hard for me to aim at something that I've never experienced.

For instance, I once sampled a $1000 bottle of wine at a fancy wine tasting. It didn't even taste like wine! Well, not in the usual sense of wine that everyone is familliar with. It was completely different, and so that experience kinda blew my mind. Before that, I didn't even know that such a taste was possible from a "wine".

 

[NeverDie]

Great info. useless to me as I can't guarantee 60 2 days in a row much less 50. I'm beginning to think those of us in warmer climates need to start doing our own yeast experiments and noting any differences. sometimes it sucks to live in paradise.

Yes, agreed. Let's pool our findings. Since most yeasts aren't new, most likely someone has already done the trials. It would be a jackpot if we could find those results.

I suspect the higher temp yeasts won't be the same as the popular ones but, hopefully, "good enough" and, if we're lucky, maybe even great in their own unique way.

 

[bmd2k1]

quick search...here's some info on yeasts suitable for higher temp fermentations - by no means all inclusive but a good starting point:

http://beerandwinejournal.com/high-temp-yeast/

and another for "wines" -- that lists many with suitable temps into the 80s:
https://winemakermag.com/resource/yeast-strains-chart


I'd like to find one for summer ciders (in Michigan) that ferments nicely:

- in the 70s
- has great flocculation / solid lees
- an alcohol tolerance 12-14%
- cold crashes well
- low nutrient requirement

...good luck...huh...lol

Cheers!

 

[NeverDie]

quick search...here's some info on yeasts suitable for higher temp fermentations - by no means all inclusive but a good starting point:

http://beerandwinejournal.com/high-temp-yeast/

and another for "wines" -- that lists many with suitable temps into the 80s:
https://winemakermag.com/resource/yeast-strains-chart


I'd like to find one for summer ciders (in Michigan) that ferments nicely:

- in the 70s
- has great flocculation / solid lees
- an alcohol tolerance 12-14%
- cold crashes well
- low nutrient requirement

...good luck...huh...lol

Cheers!

Thanks for that. The trouble with looking at even the datasheet temperature ranges is, it appears, that the yeast doesn't function the same at every point within that range. Instead, the yeast is said to be "under stress" even at both the high and the low end of the published range, and, from what I'm reading, it may create fussels as a result of that. But where is the sweet spot within that range where those bad things don't happen? Well, it doesn't seem to be published in the datasheet. I really wish it were, and it frustrates me that it isn't.

Anyhow, if I'm wrong about this, someone please correct me.

 

[S-Met]

Cider ferments out much slower than beer, if you do it right. I can knock out an English ale in 36 hours with Windsor ale yeast. Ciders, on the other hand, take months.

Cider may ferment dry in just a few days, but I don't feel its drinkable at that point. Time to age, clear and let the flavors can develop. I've pushed ciders out in a few weeks, but was more like drinking the cider equivalent of bud lite.

Uh, ok, I'm plainly doing it totally wrong then. What early-stage fermentation temperature do you recommend?

See above. Dont rush, but yeast plays a big roll.

When should I add the pectic enzyme?

If you do lots of cider, buy a bag and add the day before fermentation. If using whole fruit, dust with the enzyme and you will get a bette yield.

Sound good, or do you advise against kveik for some reason?

Saison yeasts....I've heard....are also good warmer weather suckers...though I haven't used yet. Cheers

Try the kveik and see, you may be pleasantly surprised. One of my favorite experiments was a simple summer apple cider fermented with trappist ale yeast and 12lb champagne mangoes.