Is BIAB the same as steeping

[JONNYROTTEN]

I don't know why this is confusing me but it is.I BIAB and it seems like the entire process is steeping.Perhaps because the recipe is extract and Im doing all grain.With this recipe(only all grain) would I steep the grains in a hop bag 30 min before adding base grains pull bag and continue with 60 min mash,Add them halfway through a 60 min mash in a separate bag for some reason, or just throw them in with the base grains halfway through 60 min mash. In general,how would you do it,thanks https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f69/blood-moon-ipa-471019/

 

[LLBeanJ]

Just mash all the grains together. No need to steep anything separately. To finish @ 1.010 per the recipe, I would think the step temp for the mash would be around 151°F.

Being that you're doing this recipe all-grain, what grains are you planning to sub for the extract? Besides base grains, you'll probably want to add some crystal malt.

Steps:
1) Bring mash water to temp (~155°F)
2) Add bag and grains. Stir for a few minutes. Add heat if necessary to bring temp to 151.
3) Hold for 60-75 minutes. You may need to add heat periodically (every 15-20 minutes) depending on how well insulated your mash tun/boil kettle is.
4) When mash is complete, pull bag and drain.

 

[antony]

If I read correctly (just woke up, haven't had coffee), you're brewing in a bag but following instructions from a mini-mash/partial boil kit? I would just include all the grain in my bag & mash as usual. I don't think I've heard of anyone adding grain to the bag after the mash has already started (midway). I've been wrong before but that's what I'd do...

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Just mash all the grains together. No need to steep anything separately. To finish @ 1.010 per the recipe, I would think the step temp for the mash would be around 151°F.

Being that you're doing this recipe all-grain, what grains are you planning to sub for the extract? Besides base grains, you'll probably want to add some crystal malt.

Steps:
1) Bring mash water to temp (~155°F)
2) Add bag and grains. Stir for a few minutes. Add heat if necessary to bring temp to 151.
3) Hold for 60-75 minutes. You may need to add heat periodically (every 15-20 minutes) depending on how well insulated your mash tun/boil kettle is.
4) When mash is complete, pull bag and drain.

Thanks,I was going to start a new thread but since you asked: 2 row for extract,My LHBS said it converts to 11.34 #s,someone here said 10#s.So I don't know what the deal is there. They also don't have the specialty grains.(1lb Belgian - Caramel Pils) I have on hand for a possible substitution:

Plenty of German pils malt
1Lb Vienna malt
3/4 lb carmel malt 60
3/4 amber malt
3/4lb carapils malt
Also,I have Amarillo on hand would it be an acceptable sub for the Galaxy?

Im trying to burn this up and would be good if I can use it and save myself a trip to the store. Any advise on a sub?

 

[McKnuckle]

The answer is NO.

BIAB simply employs a fine mesh bag to separate the grain from the liquid, as opposed to a manifold, braid, or false bottom. It is the basis of an alternate, fully legitimate all grain brewing process.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Thanks,I was going to start a new thread but since you asked: 2 row for extract,My LHBS said it converts to 11.34 #s,someone here said 10#s.So I don't know what the deal is there. They also don't have the specialty grains.(1lb Belgian - Caramel Pils) I have on hand for a possible substitution:

Plenty of German pils malt
1Lb Vienna malt
3/4 lb carmel malt 60
3/4 amber malt
3/4lb carapils malt
Also,I have Amarillo on hand would it be an acceptable sub for the Galaxy?

Im trying to burn this up and would be good if I can use it and save myself a trip to the store. Any advise on a sub?

The amount of grain you'll need to sub for extract will be entirely dependent on the total efficiency of your system.

Here is a recipe I just threw together in BeerSmith. It assumes 75% total efficiency and a 90 minute boil (I do 90 minute boils on most of my brews). Using the grains you have on hand, it looked pretty good, but the color was a little light, so the 2 oz of chocolate was added to give the color a more "blood moon" look. Feel free to omit if you are okay with a more orange looking brew.

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Blood Moon IPA
Brewer:
Asst Brewer:
Style: American IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.08 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.20 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.061 SG
Estimated Color: 13.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 77.7 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.3 SRM) Grain 1 70.3 %
1 lbs Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 8.8 %
12.0 oz Amber Malt (22.0 SRM) Grain 3 6.6 %
12.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4 6.6 %
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5 6.6 %
2.0 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 6 1.1 %
1.00 oz Cascade [7.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 30.2 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [7.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 7.5 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [12.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 12.5 IBUs
0.50 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 10 14.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [7.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 11 3.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [12.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 12 5.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 13 5.6 IBUs
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) Yeast 14 -
1.00 oz Cascade [7.50 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Days Hop 15 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.50 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Days Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Days Hop 17 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: BIAB, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 11 lbs 6.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Saccharification Add 8.14 gal of water at 153.0 F 149.0 F 90 min

Sparge: If steeping, remove grains, and prepare to boil wort
Notes:
------
US-05

Created with BeerSmith 2 - http://www.beersmith.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit: Mis-read the original recipe. Replaced Pilsener malt with Cara-pils.
Edit2: Increased mash duration to 90 min to compensate for low mash temp (149°).

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

The amount of grain you'll need to sub for extract will be entirely dependent on the total efficiency of your system.

Here is a recipe I just threw together in BeerSmith. It assumes 75% total efficiency and a 90 minute boil (I do 90 minute boils on most of my brews). Using the grains you have on hand, it looked pretty good, but the color was a little light, so the 2 oz of chocolate was added to give the color a more "blood moon" look. Feel free to omit if you are okay with a more orange looking brew.

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Blood Moon IPA
Brewer:
Asst Brewer:
Style: American IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.08 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.20 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.061 SG
Estimated Color: 13.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 77.7 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.3 SRM) Grain 1 70.3 %
1 lbs Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 8.8 %
12.0 oz Amber Malt (22.0 SRM) Grain 3 6.6 %
12.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4 6.6 %
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5 6.6 %
2.0 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 6 1.1 %
1.00 oz Cascade [7.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 30.2 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [7.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 7.5 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [12.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 12.5 IBUs
0.50 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 10 14.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [7.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 11 3.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [12.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 12 5.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 13 5.6 IBUs
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) Yeast 14 -
1.00 oz Cascade [7.50 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Days Hop 15 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.50 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Days Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Days Hop 17 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: BIAB, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 11 lbs 6.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Saccharification Add 8.14 gal of water at 153.0 F 149.0 F 75 min

Sparge: If steeping, remove grains, and prepare to boil wort
Notes:
------
US-05

Created with BeerSmith 2 - http://www.beersmith.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit: Mis-read the original recipe. Replaced Pilsener malt for Cara-pils.

WOW, Thanks ALOT!! Perfect. Do you think I could swap the Galaxy with Amarillo.If so Il be brewing within the hour,If not its a trip to the store.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Sure, Amarillo is similar to Cascade, so it would be fine.

 

[DurtyChemist]

The difference between extract and 2 row also changes if it is LME or Dme. If your shop was talking about liquid and the person here assumed dry that could explain the conversion difference.


I'd say BIAB IS just like steeping but it's steeping much longer. I would always steep at 156. Add all the grains for a BIAB at the beginning of your mash and let it sit for an hour, or stir if that's your thing, just like when you steep grains for extract. The difference is the time you let the grains steep/mash if that helps understand it.

 

[bu_gee]

Steeping is extracting sugar from already mashed grains or for getting a flavor out if a particular grain. BIAB is mashing plus the above..

 

[joshesmusica]

Steeping is extracting sugar from already mashed grains or for getting a flavor out if a particular grain. BIAB is mashing plus the above..

I'm sure you're trying to help explain it in an understandable way, but it's always good practice to not assume the because someone is new that also makes them an idiot. Just explain the real terms through proper definitions. Then if they don't understand it, or don't know how to use google, then dumb it down. The steeping grains are not already mashed grains.

 

[FirstAidBrewing]

You steep to get color and flavor. You mash to turn starch into fermentable sugar in addition to color and flavor. Typically grains that are steeped will not produce sugars, like your darker malts. That is the distinction.

 

[AnOldUR]

I don't know why this is confusing me but it is.

BIAB is an All Grain or Partial Mash form of brewing that all have mashing in common. The difference between mashing and steeping can be summed up in one word, conversion. If no conversion takes place, you're steeping. If conversion takes place you're mashing. Conversion is the process of converting the starches in grain into sugars through enzymatic activity . In some grains like crystal, conversion takes place during the roasting or kilning process, so they don't have to be mashed. Sugars are there, but they do not require mashing to get them into your wort, only steeping. Both methods extract the flavor and color compounds from the grain.

Any grains that have unconverted starches should be mashed or you will get starch haze in your beer and have a greater chance of infection from bugs other than brewers yeast having food available.

 

[bu_gee]

I'm sure you're trying to help explain it in an understandable way, but it's always good practice to not assume the because someone is new that also makes them an idiot. Just explain the real terms through proper definitions. Then if they don't understand it, or don't know how to use google, then dumb it down. The steeping grains are not already mashed grains.

I don't see how I did that. If he has additional questions, I'd be happy to elaborate, but I brought the difference to a single salient point.

I didn't call anybody an idiot.

 

[joshesmusica]

I don't see how I did that. If he has additional questions, I'd be happy to elaborate, but I brought the difference to a single salient point.

I didn't call anybody an idiot.

i just assumed you were dumbing it down for him. in that case, i think you are just using the wrong terminology, or you're a little ill-informed.

you did bring it to a single, salient point, but it was wrong. as mentioned steeping grains are already converted sugars. they're not already mashed.

 

[RM-MN]

To me the biggest difference (besides converting the starches to sugars) is that the steeping process leaves you with lots of latitude in the temperature you use. You can steep from about 100 F. to boiling and extract the flavor and color from the grain. With mashing, the enzymes that convert the starches to sugars only work within a narrow range of temperature and since there are 2 enzymes that must work in concert, each with it's temperature range, the resultant fermentability of the wort produced depends on the exact temperature you mashed at.

 

[bu_gee]

i just assumed you were dumbing it down for him. in that case, i think you are just using the wrong terminology, or you're a little ill-informed.

you did bring it to a single, salient point, but it was wrong. as mentioned steeping grains are already converted sugars. they're not already mashed.

Certain grains /are/ already converted (e.g. Crystal malts). But I believe you stopped reading that sentence at the "or".

 

[AnOldUR]

. . . steeping grains are already converted sugars. they're not already mashed.

Well, if you want to get anal about the proper use of wording, crystal/caramel malts aren't "already converted sugars." They contain already converted sugars along with a host of other things including flavor compounds.

And as far as them not being mash. Technically true, but Briess refers to the process as, "It’s like millions of little mash vessels with wort trapped inside."

 

[judsonp]

To me the biggest difference (besides converting the starches to sugars) is that the steeping process leaves you with lots of latitude in the temperature you use. You can steep from about 100 F. to boiling and extract the flavor and color from the grain. With mashing, the enzymes that convert the starches to sugars only work within a narrow range of temperature and since there are 2 enzymes that must work in concert, each with it's temperature range, the resultant fermentability of the wort produced depends on the exact temperature you mashed at.

I agree with this. From a procedural standpoint, steeping is fundamentally like a BIAB mash where you aren't very particular about the parameters: there's a wide latitude for time, temperature, temperature stability, mash thickness, grain crush, water chemistry, etc. When mashing, you care about them a lot more (some more than others).

Chemically, they're different. Steeping, you're just dissolving things from the grains into the water. Mashing, you're doing that plus tending an enzymatic reaction.

But to directly answer OP's question (which I guess has been answered a few times already now), mashing essentially includes steeping. So if you are doing a mash and you have some "steeping grains", just put the steeping grains in the mash.

 

[chickypad]

But to directly answer OP's question (which I guess has been answered a few times already now), mashing essentially includes steeping. So if you are doing a mash and you have some "steeping grains", just put the steeping grains in the mash.

I think this is really the root of the confusion for many people. Since you can't see the conversion happening, mashing and steeping look the same. Then you will see a new all grainer post that they are going to "steep" the grains in 1.5 qts per lb at 150* for 60 min. Inevitably someone will chime in that you can't steep base grains you need to mash - not bothering to acknowledge that the person just described a mash.

 

[joshesmusica]

Well, if you want to get anal about the proper use of wording, crystal/caramel malts aren't "already converted sugars." They contain already converted sugars along with a host of other things including flavor compounds.

And as far as them not being mash. Technically true, but Briess refers to the process as, "It’s like millions of little mash vessels with wort trapped inside."

hahaha well if you want to get anal retentive about it, i don't ever want to get anal. like ever.

the difference is my quick reply saying they are instead of they have. he's claiming they're already mashed grains. which they're not. one's a type, one's a complete misunderstanding of the concept.

 

[bu_gee]

I can concede my eff up that mashing isn't the same as conversion, AND I can do it without calling the OP an idiot and accuse someone else of being ill informed.

 

[judsonp]

I think this is really the root of the confusion for many people. Since you can't see the conversion happening, mashing and steeping look the same. Then you will see a new all grainer post that they are going to "steep" the grains in 1.5 qts per lb at 150* for 60 min. Inevitably someone will chime in that you can't steep base grains you need to mash - not bothering to acknowledge that the person just described a mash.

Yep. The procedure is basically the same; you're just being more careful about particular parameters with a mash. This is especially true with BIAB. Using a mash tun and steeping specialty grains don't "feel" completely the same, but holding grains in hot water in a small bag vs. in a large bag is pretty similar.

 

[AnOldUR]

i don't ever want to get anal. like ever.

Funny, cause it sure looks like you're pulling stuff out of your butt.
(Couldn't resist )

. . . he's claiming they're already mashed grains. which they're not. one's a type, one's a complete misunderstanding of the concept.

So, you're saying that when the people at Briess say that crystal/caramel grains are, "... like millions of little mash vessels with wort trapped inside" they have a complete misunderstanding of the concept?

I'd say that bu_gee has a complete understanding of the concept. His vocabulary may have been off, but his implication was that these grains do not need to be mashed. But thank-you for pointing things out in such a tactful way.

 

[joshesmusica]

I'm not trying to be a dick about it, but as a person who learned a lot from this forum as a new brewer, it really sucked to have to sift through all of the comments to figure out the stuff behind the stuff. Part of that includes as much of the science behind it that I can grasp. So it can get annoying quickly when I see people spreading wrong information. It might be a small wording issue now, but it turns into "you must use a decoction mash with fly sparging to be a real brewer" or "you must always use secondary" or whatever as the next bit spread around.
My original point was that if he was saying that in order to dumb it down, there's absolutely no reason to do that. When I ask questions I don't want dumbed down answers, not even if they're from briess.