Is all grain ALOT better than extract?

[sirsloop]

Besides... Bobby has some swill he needs help kicking. Just hide the vienna in your bedroom or something

we'll buy the pizza this time tho

 

[Soulive]

we'll buy the pizza this time tho

Yeah, I'd be down for another brew day...

 

[Bobby_M]

I know right! Why does it take the same amount of time to kick the last gallon as it took for the first 4? Maybe I get bored with that particular beer and lag off on it. As soon as I'm ready to fire up the three keggle beast, we'll have a day.

 

[Donasay]

to answer the OP's question yes.

 

[reshp1]

I thoroughly enjoy the all grain part. It just seems so much more hands on and I get a kick out of transforming raw grains, hops, yeast and water into beer. I like that I have access to all the variables the pros do, so if my beer doesn't turn out as good (it doesn't) then it's something I have in my control to fix. This in no way a knock on extract brewers but I kinda felt like I was just rehydrating beer when I did extract.

As far as the quality of the final product, I actually took a step backwards, but the flip side is I think I have way more room to improve now.

 

[sirsloop]

I see a trend forming where people that switched from extract beer to AG ended up with worse beer, but somehow are happy about it!

 

[DeathBrewer]

Go ahead and do a PM, get a feel for the steps involved, after 2 or 3 of those, try a simple AG. Something like a pilsner with a single temp infusion.

+1 for PM first...then the all-grain jump is rather easy. I started with "pseudo-mashing":

1. steep (mash) your grains in 1.25-1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain for 45 minutes or so. maintain temperature at around 155*F (150-160*F should be fine)
2. in the meantime, heat a gallon or more of water to 170*F
3. pour your grains through a colander into your brewpot (keep as many grains out as possible)
4. sparge with the 170*F water (pour it over the colander and into the brewpot)
5. toss your grains in the trash, add water if necessary, add extract and start your boil!

this is the absolute easiest way to do a partial mash and you don't need any extra equipment!

 

[Bobby_M]

I see a trend forming where people that switched from extract beer to AG ended up with worse beer, but somehow are happy about it!

I'll give you an analogy I think you'd appreciate. If I were an amazing bracket racer taking all kinds of points in a 1986 Grand Marquis, I'd probably still jump at the chance to do relatively poorly in a 5 second faster supercharged Mustang. For me, in this hobby, being really good at the easier method doesn't feel as valuable/rewarding. It's totally cool that you're happy with "just" making good beer.

Me Happy = Brewing + Building + Progressing + All Grain + Good Beer.

 

[JamesKY]

Don't let the perceived difficulty stop you. Brewing AG has only a few more steps that extract but it does require additional equipment and precision. Your first couple of AG brews will probably not taste as good as your extract brews because it's harder to be as precise with your gravity, temperatures, water volume, etc. On the other hand, there is an intrinsic satisfaction in creating something using the most basic of ingredients. That is part of what makes AG taste better IMO because it's something you can't replicate using extract.

That said, do whatever you feel is best for your situation. If you want to make a modest investment in equipment and give it a shot, it's a very rewarding experience. The fact that your posting about it shows that you're interested in doing AG so as long as you have the time and resources, then give it a go. Don't worry about the difficulty, it's really not that hard.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I like the way Death put it above. This is what I did when I started extract brewing. I thought it sounded much better and it was so easy I didn't even know I was doing PM. (Give me a break I was a super n00b in college)

If you had someone with all grain knowledge "coach" you through your first AG you would be fine. It really isn't hard. Plus, the gadgetry is phenomenal.

 

[jfish63]

I f anyone lives in the northern jersey or southern new york area I would love to help with an all grain brew. I have only extract brewed and would like to make the switch.

 

[Pugilist]

Yes.

Like fresh squeezed orange juice is better than tang.
Like home made marinara sauce from home grown tomatoes is better than Ragu.
Like your Grandmas homemade chocolate chip cookies are better than Chips Ahoy.

It is not as difficult as you think. There is just a veil of the unknown right now. Read more. Learn more. Immerse yourself in all-grain. Be the grain.

Otherwise, there ain't no way in hell you're gonna get a beer to look like this:

View attachment 4508

And believe me, it tastes even better...

Man that beer picture has me drooling. How long did you lager that bad boy to get it so clear? Do you filter it?

I think I am going to get a few more extract/steeping recipes under my belt. I dont feel as if I have really gotten a couple of very good brews in a row where I could graduate up to AG. Still trying to get it so I can get the pitching rate, temps, ferments second nature.

 

[njnear76]

I see a trend forming where people that switched from extract beer to AG ended up with worse beer, but somehow are happy about it!

I think everyone's 1-3 AGs are minor disasters. It takes awhile to get used to your equipment and the new procedure.

 

[njnear76]

I think I am going to get a few more extract/steeping recipes under my belt. I dont feel as if I have really gotten a couple of very good brews in a row where I could graduate up to AG. Still trying to get it so I can get the pitching rate, temps, ferments second nature.

I think I did about 7-8 extract + steeping grains until I did my first AG. It definitely helps to get down the basic steps.

 

[bensyverson]

I live in an apartment, so I don't have the space to do AG for 5 gallons... I've only done extract/PM before, but recently decided to do a few 1 gallon batches of AG to get my feet wet. I figure it will help me work on my chops, and hey, 1 gallon is a good amount to take to a party.

 

[Bobby_M]

I f anyone lives in the northern jersey or southern new york area I would love to help with an all grain brew. I have only extract brewed and would like to make the switch.

We're looking to have another brew day at my place where hopefully half the attendees really need the help with learning all grain. Probably sometime in March.
I'm down in the New Brunswick area.

 

[blacklab]

I think everyone's 1-3 AGs are minor disasters. It takes awhile to get used to your equipment and the new procedure.

It all depends on your level of research and planning. My first three AG brews have been the best beers I've made, and IMHO, comparable to most micros of the same type.

When starting out with AG, the KISS rule applies. Come up with a simple, tried and true setup(easily found on this forum) and brew a simple beer(no GD fruit!). EdWort basically tells you what to do step by step in his Haus Pale Ale recipe.

Then...it's on!

 

[Soulive]

It all depends on your level of research and planning. My first three AG brews have been the best beers I've made, and IMHO, comparable to most micros of the same type.

When starting out with AG, the KISS rule applies. Come up with a simple, tried and true setup(easily found on this forum) and brew a simple beer(no GD fruit!). EdWort basically tells you what to do step by step in his Haus Pale Ale recipe.

+1...KISS is the best bet and EdWort's Haus is definitely simple. Its incredible how good that beer is when you consider how simple it is...

 

[oguss0311]

We're looking to have another brew day at my place where hopefully half the attendees really need the help with learning all grain. Probably sometime in March.
I'm down in the New Brunswick area.

If that does happen I'd be there- (Provided I'm in town). I joined this site and learned of you brewdays Just after the last one. I was disappointed. What entails a brewday? Do you hold informal workshops for newer brewers, or do many people bring things to actually brew? If so, do they actually bring it all with them when they leave? Or let it ferment there? These must seem like silly questions- but I'm sure that some one else is wondering the same thing. I'd love to attend and watch the pro's go threw the motions and talk about what and why and how you go about your brewing procedure.

Ifish63- Where are you located? I'm in Butler now- Do you go to Corrado's? They just got most everything that they carry in- its a good time to stock up before they run out and don't order anything for months on end again. I wish they had a grain mill. Though- now that I made a really kick-butt PM- I think I'll be buys grain from the Gaslight most often.

 

[njnear76]

It all depends on your level of research and planning. My first three AG brews have been the best beers I've made, and IMHO, comparable to most micros of the same type.

When starting out with AG, the KISS rule applies. Come up with a simple, tried and true setup(easily found on this forum) and brew a simple beer(no GD fruit!). EdWort basically tells you what to do step by step in his Haus Pale Ale recipe.

Then...it's on!

I believe both my first 2 AGs turned out well (Bottling number 2 this weekend.). What I meant is that it takes awhile to know what kind of efficiency you can get. My first AG had really poor efficiency, my second was 80%. It's not a big deal, but I had to add malt extract to the first and I will have to dillute the second.

All in all these aren't really disasters. I have beer and it tastes pretty good too.

 

[shafferpilot]

my first ever batch of beer was AG and the only problem I had was over-bittering which was just a result of not really knowing what the heck an IBU was in the first place:cross: . The only brew that was a disaster was the one that I used unfiltered tap water on and had chlorine problems. It was bad enough to make me pitch the batch.... Unfortunately that was a double batch (10 gallons). Now I use a charcoal filter for my tap water and everything works like a charm. AG is not that bad and efficiency can be easily controlled into the 80s% range if you get a mill to control the crush. It's just too much fun to write your own recipes, decide if you want it dark or light (specialty grain amounts), dry or malty (mash temp), citrusy or spicy (hop variety), bitter or sweet (hop amounts), etc etc etc. The experimentation keeps the hobby fresh and exciting, so if your brewing feels boring, AG will change your whole outlook.

The beer generally tastes better, but that's not the reason to go AG. The reason is that it's really fun and exciting.

 

[njnear76]

AG is not that bad and efficiency can be easily controlled into the 80s% range if you get a mill to control the crush.

Agreed. I can't wait to move so that I can a get a mill. It will make life so much easier.

I did notice that if you have a poor crush, mashing longer can help a lot. The main differance between my first and second batch was that I mashed for 60 minutes on the first and 90 minutes on the second. As a result I went from 60% to 80%.

 

[Bobby_M]

If that does happen I'd be there- (Provided I'm in town). I joined this site and learned of you brewdays Just after the last one. I was disappointed. What entails a brewday? .

I posted here on this https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=566529&posted=1#post566529

 

[Pirate Ale]

I started extract, then steeped, then PM, now AG. All my PM's were good beers. All my extracts had a funny aftertaste. My AG's are great! The extract aftertaste is what made me switch. It just really dissapointed me, every time I brewed. How do the folks who win with extracts get around that "twang"?

Anyway, I was teaching a guy how to brew a few weeks ago, and he wanted to learn extract first, so....

We made a brown ale:
6 lbs DME
1 lbs Wheat DME
some crystal 60 and chocolate to steep, plus a 60 minute and 0 min hop addition, shooting for about 24 IBU.
Safale s-04 yeast

I have a fermentation chamber, chiller, all the goodies needed, so you would expect the beer to be good....NOPE!
Same damn funny twang, that is not present in my AG beers.

So if you ask me whats better..... AG, then PM, then extract in that order.

 

[Soulive]

I started extract, then steeped, then PM, now AG. All my PM's were good beers. All my extracts had a funny aftertaste. My AG's are great! The extract aftertaste is what made me switch. It just really dissapointed me, every time I brewed. How do the folks who win with extracts get around that "twang"?

Anyway, I was teaching a guy how to brew a few weeks ago, and he wanted to learn extract first, so....

We made a brown ale:
6 lbs DME
1 lbs Wheat DME
some crystal 60 and chocolate to steep, plus a 60 minute and 0 min hop addition, shooting for about 24 IBU.
Safale s-04 yeast

I have a fermentation chamber, chiller, all the goodies needed, so you would expect the beer to be good....NOPE!
Same damn funny twang, that is not present in my AG beers.

So if you ask me whats better..... AG, then PM, then extract in that order.

One problem I'd say with that recipe is your using yeast that isn't as attenuative as others. With extract, I always prefer attenuative yeast like Nottingham. Extract is already less fermentable so you want yeast that will take it as low as possible...

 

[cd2448]

I'd need to try two brews side by side, one extract, one AG, to try and understand this twang thing. I'm not saying my extract beers were outstanding examples of the craft, but if you get the rest of the process right, you're in good shape, I think. Likewise being AG in itself won't mean that you make great beer or even better beer - there's a lot of detail work involved which isn't for everyone during the mash, and of course you have to get the rest of the process right or the effort during mashing will go to waste.

I'm going to try my hand at all grain, because, as others have said, the extract thing feels a bit like cheating (but only a bit - I'm doing everything else, after all). i've enjoyed all the beer i've made so far, if for no better reason than I made it myself!

 

[DeathBrewer]

i've tasted the twang. in some beers it was subdued (such as stouts) and some beers it goes well with it (such as certain hefes) but i've definitely had some batches where the twang was very noticeable and undesireable.

my first all-grain was a friggin mess, but the beer is turning out great (it needed some age.) my second was also a nightmare during bottling and tastes like crap, but looking back it was the recipe and the bottling disaster, NOT the AG. My third (i think it was my 3rd) all-grain was probably the best beer i've ever made. clean, crisp and popular (cream ale - it was gone at a party in a few short hours.)

 

[macs]

Thanks for the input guys. Makes me a little less afraid of getting $50 of ingredients and ruining them Think the partial mash makes sense for a first, as you said it gives you a test without diving into a full AG batch.

Now I need a cooler with a built in spigot and a "phils lauter tun" from my LHBS?

PM first, then AG. It will make more sense after your PM experience. It always seems harder than it really is until you've done it. I was just like you too. It's like, the more you read about it, the more complicated it gets. Just remember...People have been AG brewing for thousands of years, before they even knew what yeast was!

 

[chefmike]

experience. It always seems harder than it really is until you've done it. ..... It's like, the more you read about it, the more complicated it gets. Just remember...People have been AG brewing for thousands of years, before they even knew what yeast was!

I decided to give it a shot. I read enough to be dangerous and a little confused, went to part of a brew session (sorry I had to leave early Clay!) and figured $20 in education was worth it. I borrowed a second stock pot, borrowed a 5 gallon cooler, and bought a $7 grain bag.

It was educational. I screwed up simple things. I adapted. I used a c clamp to hold open the drain on the cooler while sparging. I cooled my worts in a sink with cold water bath (40 minutes to 75 degrees).

But I applied everything I learned in extract brewing: I kept things clean, I took some notes, and I used a thermometer.

And it made beer. GOOD beer.

But not very strong... next time I will remember to stir the mash!

And not bottle two batches and start an apfelwein the same night

so I say give it a shot. Be serious. But not serious. But serious.

 

[jay075j]

Ugh, I'll never understand that. You go and do all the research to learn how to mash and sparge, to get the liquid goodness that will eventually be beer. Then you go and buy and build all the equipment to mash, and sparge. Then you go and actually do it, you heat your water, mash your grains all the while watching temps so carefully and measuring out the sparge water, again very carefully.


Then you go and ADD EXTRACT!!!!??????


If you going through all that trouble, just go bigger and to hell with the extract. If you make any mistakes, so what??? It will still be beer, and will probably be very good beer.

I could not agree more! I just did my first AG this past weekend. Before I did and AG, I did my research, and I looked at doing a Partial Mash. But when I looked at the steps, and what it would take to finish a PM, what was the point of the extract? I just jumped into AG, and if I screwed it up, who cares! It's still my beer and better than what most of the other beer i've paid for in a store.

My thought was, if I'm going in...I'm going in head first!