Is all grain ALOT better than extract?

[BrewDey]

I've just done a few AGs, but it is a lot more enjoyable. I also think the beer tastes better. IMO the maltiness is much deeper. Like orange juice from concentrate vs. fresh squeezed.

Also, the science behind AG seems daunting-but it's really not. I've heard that with today's grains, there's not as much need to worry about protein rests, PH, etc. Also, from the boil on is when you need to be worried about sanitation-and messing up the beer. If you're comfortable with tending the boil and then getting it cooled and into a fermenter-the AG part is a breeze-it just adds time..and you don't need to worry about keeping everything germ free. It really is a blast, it's cheaper, and more fulfilling.

 

[ohiobrewtus]

I've just done a few AGs, but it is a lot more enjoyable. I also think the beer tastes better. IMO the maltiness is much deeper. Like orange juice from concentrate vs. fresh squeezed.

Also, the science behind AG seems daunting-but it's really not. I've heard that with today's grains, there's not as much need to worry about protein rests, PH, etc. Also, from the boil on is when you need to be worried about sanitation-and messing up the beer. If you're comfortable with tending the boil and then getting it cooled and into a fermenter-the AG part is a breeze-it just adds time..and you don't need to worry about keeping everything germ free. It really is a blast, it's cheaper, and more fulfilling.

These are some great points. I was pretty timid going into my first AG, but it's nowhere near as difficult as I thought it would be. 30 AG batches later and I still realy enjoy it. It takes a lot longer than doing extract, but that's what makes it enjoyable and engaging.

The science behind it is a bit overhyped if you ask me. I've never done anything other than a single infusion mash, I don't mash out, I batch sparge, I use my tap water and I'm able to make beer that I'm very pleased with.

Reading one of Kaiser's brew logs and all of the technical information can make AG seem like a daunting task for sure, but it's not. If you choose to, then you can go to the level that Kaiser does (sorry Kaiser, not picking on you, just using you as an example of someone who takes a very scientific approach to brewing - and that's a good thing). I'm still learning about new aspects of brewing all of the time and I'm sure that I'll expand into decoctions, extensive water conditioning and other areas at some point but for now I'm happy with my relatively simple AG processes.

 

[sirsloop]

Your beer is pretty awesome. I always wondered.... Do you do full wort boils?

Thanks! I mini-mashed the flanders sour, but every other brew has been steeping grains and 3 gallon extract boils, topped off with mountain fresh jersey tap water.

 

[sirsloop]

Yes.

Like fresh squeezed orange juice is better than tang.
Like home made marinara sauce from home grown tomatoes is better than Ragu.
Like your Grandmas homemade chocolate chip cookies are better than Chips Ahoy.

It is not as difficult as you think. There is just a veil of the unknown right now. Read more. Learn more. Immerse yourself in all-grain. Be the grain.

Otherwise, there ain't no way in hell you're gonna get a beer to look like this:

View attachment 4508

And believe me, it tastes even better...

I'll take a pic of my Extract Interceptor IPA tonight... I'd venture to say its that color if not lighter. Extra Pale extract is the hot setup.

 

[BierMuncher]

...The science behind it is a bit overhyped if you ask me...

Agreed.
Think of it like making a big batch of oatmeal using crushed barley malt.
Letting the oatmeal sit for an hour.
Draining off the sugar water that was created into a big pot.
Rinsing the oatmeal a few times to get all the sugar rinsed out.
Boiling the sugar water and adding some hops.
Chilling and adding yeast.
Come back in three weeks and bottle.

Not so complicated.

 

[Bobby_M]

Sloop definitily makes really good extract beers. His IPA I had last night was easily better then my AG IPA that I tasted side by side. I also put his Porter as a tie for first out of seven beers. For me, it's about comparing the relative quality of the beers that I make. I know for a fact that my AG beers have been better than the extracts. My biggest problem is that I'm too stubborn to brew someone else's tried and true recipe and tend to not do so well.

 

[BierMuncher]

...Sloop definitily makes really good extract beers...

That's a good point.

While the answer would generally be "yes", this should be caveated with "but depends on who's brewing..."

 

[ohiobrewtus]

That's a good point.

While the answer would generally be "yes", this should be caveated with "but depends on who's brewing..."

As is proven at NHC almost every year. A few extract only brews regularly make it to the second round of judging.

 

[cheezydemon]

In my experience, PM brewing took maybe 30 minutes less than AG. How long does PM take you?

I would say more like an hour difference, but the biggest difference comes in:not going outside, not getting out the burner, not waiting for 5 gallons to boil, not waiting for 5 gallons to cool.

Also the fact that I am inside, means that I can keep half an eye on the kids, I am just in the kitchen not out in the garage.

I guess it is not entirely a function of time, but you do have to count: pulling one car out of the garage, lighting the burner, possibly switching out tanks etc., as opposed to something not much more complicated than cooking soup on the stove.

 

[Soulive]

I would say more like an hour difference, but the biggest difference comes in:not going outside, not getting out the burner, not waiting for 5 gallons to boil, not waiting for 5 gallons to cool.

Also the fact that I am inside, means that I can keep half an eye on the kids, I am just in the kitchen not out in the garage.

I guess it is not entirely a function of time, but you do have to count: pulling one car out of the garage, lighting the burner, possibly switching out tanks etc., as opposed to something not much more complicated than cooking soup on the stove.

I can agree with the being inside aspect, but I don't find it much quicker than AG. One big reason is that my stove takes much longer than my burner...

 

[IowaStateFan]

I'm going to go against the flow here. I recently switched to AG and am having a very hard time getting my system dialed in. As a result, my AG beers have generally been inferior to my extract brews. I love the process and I'm pretty stubborn, so I will stick with it until I get exactly the way I want. There are so many variables that affect the quality of the beer. That's both the beauty and pitfall of AG. A small change in temperature, or mash ph or grain type or etc. can either make the beer better or it can give it an off flavor. With extract there are just fewer things that can go wrong.

As I said, I love the process and will work at it to get it right. I'm sure that in the hands of a competent brewer who knows his/her equipment AG will produce a superior beer. However, in the hands of this rookie it has produced some very mediocre brews, but I'll keep working to improve. For me the other major benefit is cost. My extract ingredients are pushing $35 at my LHBS compared to about $20 for AG. That alone is enough of a motivator to get the AG working.

 

[cheezydemon]

True Dat! AG is a whole lot easier to screw up. One bad thermometer, on huge boil over, one NA or nearly so batch and you will wish you had dumped in some DME

 

[Baldy_Beer_Brewery]

AG isn't that hard. Palmer's analogy about cutting up tree limbs with sister, brother and dad's help and all the tools makes it sound overly complicated IMHO. Modified malts, a single infusion mash and a fly sparge was all I found I needed to do to make a good AG beer.

I'm glad I started with extracts as it allowed me to get my sanitizing, racking, bottling/kegging and boiling practice, but I can't see ever going back to extracts again. I just enjoy the whole process more than the extract adding and stirring.

 

[beachbrew]

imo you can't brew a great pils without going to all grain. I can get a truely pale but flavorful brew this way

 

[JoePolvino]

I have been brewing extract with steeping grains recipes and always pay a little extra to get quality ingredients. I am very intrigued by all grain brewing as it seems like the traditional way to experience brewing.

I read the all grain section in Papazians book and it just seems so involved and difficult to me? Maybe I am looking too much into it. The thing that I really wonder about is whether or not an all grain beer would be that much better?

Ray Daniels says in DGB that some award winning beers were made by extract, so don't sell it short; you can make very good beers with extract, and even better beers with a partial mash.

If all grain seems confusing, you are not alone. Probably the biggest hurdle you will face is not knowing what you don't know. Some people can pick up AG brewing and have a very successful hobby, while others will make mistakes and quit.

The Papazian book is actually quite good and will allow you to make AG, but it is not the only way to do it. On the other hand, you can get even more confused by trying to digest all the different ways people do it. My opinion would be to focus on just one source (I used CP's book) and get a few batches under your belt. Then, once you know you can make consistently good AG beer, start looking around for ideas from the community.

-joe

 

[TheDom]

Another thing that made the jump to AG easy for me was getting a good software program to work out all the calculations for me. I use Beersmith, others here use ProMash, both are great programs that make life easier for the lazy.

 

[sirsloop]

Biggest hurdle for me is space. I live in a 750sqft apartment with a wife and a bird. No garage, no hose, no place to keep a keggle, no place to keep a huge cooler, no place to keep 50+ pounds of grain etc etc. Sure I *COULD* put all this stuff in my living room or something but then I would be in the dog house eternally. I could brew on my front lawn with propane tanks, but it would be very very odd. I do have a deck upstairs but its a little too small for an open flame and a keggle. I can do partial boils using extract easy enough and the beer tastes good. At the moment there is really no desire go to to AG short of saving a few bucks on ingredients. Maybe when I get a house and have lots of man space I can flex my EAC arms and get some keggles. Heck, I'm lucky to have a 33 gallon air compressor (that hasnt been used since I moved in). I dont even have a mig welder...if it wasnt for that air compressor I would have a hard time calling myself a man!! HAHA!

Really once you have the equipment working, its a rather simple process. Bite the bullet and do some tried and true recipes, dial in your setup, then get creative with your own stuff.

 

[Moonshae]

I think I'm going to give this a shot. When I first read the AG process, it was when I was first reading how to brew. It seemed beyond complicated, so I didn't really pay much attention to it, with extract being much simpler. Now that I have some knowledge, all I really need is an extra pot for boiling more water and some items to make a filter for the cooler drain.

 

[Bobby_M]

You're in Jersey man, there are a few all grainers in-state who would be glad to run a batch with you. I've done it before and would do it again.

 

[Soulive]

You're in Jersey man, there are a few all grainers in-state who would be glad to run a batch with you. I've done it before and would do it again.

Agreed. Moonshae, you're like 30min from me and Bobby. We're both AG experts

 

[sirsloop]

Besides... Bobby has some swill he needs help kicking. Just hide the vienna in your bedroom or something

we'll buy the pizza this time tho

 

[Soulive]

we'll buy the pizza this time tho

Yeah, I'd be down for another brew day...

 

[Bobby_M]

I know right! Why does it take the same amount of time to kick the last gallon as it took for the first 4? Maybe I get bored with that particular beer and lag off on it. As soon as I'm ready to fire up the three keggle beast, we'll have a day.

 

[Donasay]

to answer the OP's question yes.

 

[reshp1]

I thoroughly enjoy the all grain part. It just seems so much more hands on and I get a kick out of transforming raw grains, hops, yeast and water into beer. I like that I have access to all the variables the pros do, so if my beer doesn't turn out as good (it doesn't) then it's something I have in my control to fix. This in no way a knock on extract brewers but I kinda felt like I was just rehydrating beer when I did extract.

As far as the quality of the final product, I actually took a step backwards, but the flip side is I think I have way more room to improve now.

 

[sirsloop]

I see a trend forming where people that switched from extract beer to AG ended up with worse beer, but somehow are happy about it!

 

[DeathBrewer]

Go ahead and do a PM, get a feel for the steps involved, after 2 or 3 of those, try a simple AG. Something like a pilsner with a single temp infusion.

+1 for PM first...then the all-grain jump is rather easy. I started with "pseudo-mashing":

1. steep (mash) your grains in 1.25-1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain for 45 minutes or so. maintain temperature at around 155*F (150-160*F should be fine)
2. in the meantime, heat a gallon or more of water to 170*F
3. pour your grains through a colander into your brewpot (keep as many grains out as possible)
4. sparge with the 170*F water (pour it over the colander and into the brewpot)
5. toss your grains in the trash, add water if necessary, add extract and start your boil!

this is the absolute easiest way to do a partial mash and you don't need any extra equipment!

 

[Bobby_M]

I see a trend forming where people that switched from extract beer to AG ended up with worse beer, but somehow are happy about it!

I'll give you an analogy I think you'd appreciate. If I were an amazing bracket racer taking all kinds of points in a 1986 Grand Marquis, I'd probably still jump at the chance to do relatively poorly in a 5 second faster supercharged Mustang. For me, in this hobby, being really good at the easier method doesn't feel as valuable/rewarding. It's totally cool that you're happy with "just" making good beer.

Me Happy = Brewing + Building + Progressing + All Grain + Good Beer.

 

[JamesKY]

Don't let the perceived difficulty stop you. Brewing AG has only a few more steps that extract but it does require additional equipment and precision. Your first couple of AG brews will probably not taste as good as your extract brews because it's harder to be as precise with your gravity, temperatures, water volume, etc. On the other hand, there is an intrinsic satisfaction in creating something using the most basic of ingredients. That is part of what makes AG taste better IMO because it's something you can't replicate using extract.

That said, do whatever you feel is best for your situation. If you want to make a modest investment in equipment and give it a shot, it's a very rewarding experience. The fact that your posting about it shows that you're interested in doing AG so as long as you have the time and resources, then give it a go. Don't worry about the difficulty, it's really not that hard.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I like the way Death put it above. This is what I did when I started extract brewing. I thought it sounded much better and it was so easy I didn't even know I was doing PM. (Give me a break I was a super n00b in college)

If you had someone with all grain knowledge "coach" you through your first AG you would be fine. It really isn't hard. Plus, the gadgetry is phenomenal.

 

[jfish63]

I f anyone lives in the northern jersey or southern new york area I would love to help with an all grain brew. I have only extract brewed and would like to make the switch.

 

[Pugilist]

Yes.

Like fresh squeezed orange juice is better than tang.
Like home made marinara sauce from home grown tomatoes is better than Ragu.
Like your Grandmas homemade chocolate chip cookies are better than Chips Ahoy.

It is not as difficult as you think. There is just a veil of the unknown right now. Read more. Learn more. Immerse yourself in all-grain. Be the grain.

Otherwise, there ain't no way in hell you're gonna get a beer to look like this:

View attachment 4508

And believe me, it tastes even better...

Man that beer picture has me drooling. How long did you lager that bad boy to get it so clear? Do you filter it?

I think I am going to get a few more extract/steeping recipes under my belt. I dont feel as if I have really gotten a couple of very good brews in a row where I could graduate up to AG. Still trying to get it so I can get the pitching rate, temps, ferments second nature.

 

[njnear76]

I see a trend forming where people that switched from extract beer to AG ended up with worse beer, but somehow are happy about it!

I think everyone's 1-3 AGs are minor disasters. It takes awhile to get used to your equipment and the new procedure.

 

[njnear76]

I think I am going to get a few more extract/steeping recipes under my belt. I dont feel as if I have really gotten a couple of very good brews in a row where I could graduate up to AG. Still trying to get it so I can get the pitching rate, temps, ferments second nature.

I think I did about 7-8 extract + steeping grains until I did my first AG. It definitely helps to get down the basic steps.

 

[bensyverson]

I live in an apartment, so I don't have the space to do AG for 5 gallons... I've only done extract/PM before, but recently decided to do a few 1 gallon batches of AG to get my feet wet. I figure it will help me work on my chops, and hey, 1 gallon is a good amount to take to a party.

 

[Bobby_M]

I f anyone lives in the northern jersey or southern new york area I would love to help with an all grain brew. I have only extract brewed and would like to make the switch.

We're looking to have another brew day at my place where hopefully half the attendees really need the help with learning all grain. Probably sometime in March.
I'm down in the New Brunswick area.

 

[blacklab]

I think everyone's 1-3 AGs are minor disasters. It takes awhile to get used to your equipment and the new procedure.

It all depends on your level of research and planning. My first three AG brews have been the best beers I've made, and IMHO, comparable to most micros of the same type.

When starting out with AG, the KISS rule applies. Come up with a simple, tried and true setup(easily found on this forum) and brew a simple beer(no GD fruit!). EdWort basically tells you what to do step by step in his Haus Pale Ale recipe.

Then...it's on!

 

[Soulive]

It all depends on your level of research and planning. My first three AG brews have been the best beers I've made, and IMHO, comparable to most micros of the same type.

When starting out with AG, the KISS rule applies. Come up with a simple, tried and true setup(easily found on this forum) and brew a simple beer(no GD fruit!). EdWort basically tells you what to do step by step in his Haus Pale Ale recipe.

+1...KISS is the best bet and EdWort's Haus is definitely simple. Its incredible how good that beer is when you consider how simple it is...

 

[oguss0311]

We're looking to have another brew day at my place where hopefully half the attendees really need the help with learning all grain. Probably sometime in March.
I'm down in the New Brunswick area.

If that does happen I'd be there- (Provided I'm in town). I joined this site and learned of you brewdays Just after the last one. I was disappointed. What entails a brewday? Do you hold informal workshops for newer brewers, or do many people bring things to actually brew? If so, do they actually bring it all with them when they leave? Or let it ferment there? These must seem like silly questions- but I'm sure that some one else is wondering the same thing. I'd love to attend and watch the pro's go threw the motions and talk about what and why and how you go about your brewing procedure.

Ifish63- Where are you located? I'm in Butler now- Do you go to Corrado's? They just got most everything that they carry in- its a good time to stock up before they run out and don't order anything for months on end again. I wish they had a grain mill. Though- now that I made a really kick-butt PM- I think I'll be buys grain from the Gaslight most often.

 

[njnear76]

It all depends on your level of research and planning. My first three AG brews have been the best beers I've made, and IMHO, comparable to most micros of the same type.

When starting out with AG, the KISS rule applies. Come up with a simple, tried and true setup(easily found on this forum) and brew a simple beer(no GD fruit!). EdWort basically tells you what to do step by step in his Haus Pale Ale recipe.

Then...it's on!

I believe both my first 2 AGs turned out well (Bottling number 2 this weekend.). What I meant is that it takes awhile to know what kind of efficiency you can get. My first AG had really poor efficiency, my second was 80%. It's not a big deal, but I had to add malt extract to the first and I will have to dillute the second.

All in all these aren't really disasters. I have beer and it tastes pretty good too.