Is all grain ALOT better than extract?

[shafferpilot]

my first ever batch of beer was AG and the only problem I had was over-bittering which was just a result of not really knowing what the heck an IBU was in the first place:cross: . The only brew that was a disaster was the one that I used unfiltered tap water on and had chlorine problems. It was bad enough to make me pitch the batch.... Unfortunately that was a double batch (10 gallons). Now I use a charcoal filter for my tap water and everything works like a charm. AG is not that bad and efficiency can be easily controlled into the 80s% range if you get a mill to control the crush. It's just too much fun to write your own recipes, decide if you want it dark or light (specialty grain amounts), dry or malty (mash temp), citrusy or spicy (hop variety), bitter or sweet (hop amounts), etc etc etc. The experimentation keeps the hobby fresh and exciting, so if your brewing feels boring, AG will change your whole outlook.

The beer generally tastes better, but that's not the reason to go AG. The reason is that it's really fun and exciting.

 

[njnear76]

AG is not that bad and efficiency can be easily controlled into the 80s% range if you get a mill to control the crush.

Agreed. I can't wait to move so that I can a get a mill. It will make life so much easier.

I did notice that if you have a poor crush, mashing longer can help a lot. The main differance between my first and second batch was that I mashed for 60 minutes on the first and 90 minutes on the second. As a result I went from 60% to 80%.

 

[Bobby_M]

If that does happen I'd be there- (Provided I'm in town). I joined this site and learned of you brewdays Just after the last one. I was disappointed. What entails a brewday? .

I posted here on this https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=566529&posted=1#post566529

 

[Pirate Ale]

I started extract, then steeped, then PM, now AG. All my PM's were good beers. All my extracts had a funny aftertaste. My AG's are great! The extract aftertaste is what made me switch. It just really dissapointed me, every time I brewed. How do the folks who win with extracts get around that "twang"?

Anyway, I was teaching a guy how to brew a few weeks ago, and he wanted to learn extract first, so....

We made a brown ale:
6 lbs DME
1 lbs Wheat DME
some crystal 60 and chocolate to steep, plus a 60 minute and 0 min hop addition, shooting for about 24 IBU.
Safale s-04 yeast

I have a fermentation chamber, chiller, all the goodies needed, so you would expect the beer to be good....NOPE!
Same damn funny twang, that is not present in my AG beers.

So if you ask me whats better..... AG, then PM, then extract in that order.

 

[Soulive]

I started extract, then steeped, then PM, now AG. All my PM's were good beers. All my extracts had a funny aftertaste. My AG's are great! The extract aftertaste is what made me switch. It just really dissapointed me, every time I brewed. How do the folks who win with extracts get around that "twang"?

Anyway, I was teaching a guy how to brew a few weeks ago, and he wanted to learn extract first, so....

We made a brown ale:
6 lbs DME
1 lbs Wheat DME
some crystal 60 and chocolate to steep, plus a 60 minute and 0 min hop addition, shooting for about 24 IBU.
Safale s-04 yeast

I have a fermentation chamber, chiller, all the goodies needed, so you would expect the beer to be good....NOPE!
Same damn funny twang, that is not present in my AG beers.

So if you ask me whats better..... AG, then PM, then extract in that order.

One problem I'd say with that recipe is your using yeast that isn't as attenuative as others. With extract, I always prefer attenuative yeast like Nottingham. Extract is already less fermentable so you want yeast that will take it as low as possible...

 

[cd2448]

I'd need to try two brews side by side, one extract, one AG, to try and understand this twang thing. I'm not saying my extract beers were outstanding examples of the craft, but if you get the rest of the process right, you're in good shape, I think. Likewise being AG in itself won't mean that you make great beer or even better beer - there's a lot of detail work involved which isn't for everyone during the mash, and of course you have to get the rest of the process right or the effort during mashing will go to waste.

I'm going to try my hand at all grain, because, as others have said, the extract thing feels a bit like cheating (but only a bit - I'm doing everything else, after all). i've enjoyed all the beer i've made so far, if for no better reason than I made it myself!

 

[DeathBrewer]

i've tasted the twang. in some beers it was subdued (such as stouts) and some beers it goes well with it (such as certain hefes) but i've definitely had some batches where the twang was very noticeable and undesireable.

my first all-grain was a friggin mess, but the beer is turning out great (it needed some age.) my second was also a nightmare during bottling and tastes like crap, but looking back it was the recipe and the bottling disaster, NOT the AG. My third (i think it was my 3rd) all-grain was probably the best beer i've ever made. clean, crisp and popular (cream ale - it was gone at a party in a few short hours.)

 

[macs]

Thanks for the input guys. Makes me a little less afraid of getting $50 of ingredients and ruining them Think the partial mash makes sense for a first, as you said it gives you a test without diving into a full AG batch.

Now I need a cooler with a built in spigot and a "phils lauter tun" from my LHBS?

PM first, then AG. It will make more sense after your PM experience. It always seems harder than it really is until you've done it. I was just like you too. It's like, the more you read about it, the more complicated it gets. Just remember...People have been AG brewing for thousands of years, before they even knew what yeast was!

 

[chefmike]

experience. It always seems harder than it really is until you've done it. ..... It's like, the more you read about it, the more complicated it gets. Just remember...People have been AG brewing for thousands of years, before they even knew what yeast was!

I decided to give it a shot. I read enough to be dangerous and a little confused, went to part of a brew session (sorry I had to leave early Clay!) and figured $20 in education was worth it. I borrowed a second stock pot, borrowed a 5 gallon cooler, and bought a $7 grain bag.

It was educational. I screwed up simple things. I adapted. I used a c clamp to hold open the drain on the cooler while sparging. I cooled my worts in a sink with cold water bath (40 minutes to 75 degrees).

But I applied everything I learned in extract brewing: I kept things clean, I took some notes, and I used a thermometer.

And it made beer. GOOD beer.

But not very strong... next time I will remember to stir the mash!

And not bottle two batches and start an apfelwein the same night

so I say give it a shot. Be serious. But not serious. But serious.

 

[jay075j]

Ugh, I'll never understand that. You go and do all the research to learn how to mash and sparge, to get the liquid goodness that will eventually be beer. Then you go and buy and build all the equipment to mash, and sparge. Then you go and actually do it, you heat your water, mash your grains all the while watching temps so carefully and measuring out the sparge water, again very carefully.


Then you go and ADD EXTRACT!!!!??????


If you going through all that trouble, just go bigger and to hell with the extract. If you make any mistakes, so what??? It will still be beer, and will probably be very good beer.

I could not agree more! I just did my first AG this past weekend. Before I did and AG, I did my research, and I looked at doing a Partial Mash. But when I looked at the steps, and what it would take to finish a PM, what was the point of the extract? I just jumped into AG, and if I screwed it up, who cares! It's still my beer and better than what most of the other beer i've paid for in a store.

My thought was, if I'm going in...I'm going in head first!

 

[brewhead]

Is all grain ALOT better than extract?

taste wise I'd say no. we have a handful of ppl in our club who have been brewing exclusively extract for years. i would challenge anyone to do a blind taste test ag to their extract to find a difference.

cost wise I'd say definitely yes. all grain is cheaper by far, but only when you've accumulated all the toys to do it with.

control wise I'd say definitely yes. with extract especially kits - you have a single outcome unless you horendously screw something up. with all grain you are free to adjust at will varying differences in temperature, mash time, etc to achieve a desired result.

available variety wise I'd definitely say yes. with all grain you have a plethora of grains at your bidding to achieve many different profiles.

that is not to say that some of these aspects cannot be achieved at the hands of an seasoned extract brewer, but all grain makes these processes easier.

all grain can be daunting to the new brewer. but once you have the process down, single infusion is a beautiful thing

 

[bensyverson]

The biggest problem with extract seems to be that on its own, it's always going to taste pretty much the same. Changing up your yeast, hops and spices can only take you so far. I can't imagine doing extract without at least steeping some specialty grains.

 

[paranode]

As for the AG vs PM and the question of why you do the PM... to do AG you DO need bigger/better equipment, ie a very large brewpot, a propane burner or some other high-output burner, and a wort chilling system. So if you are 'ramping up' then partial mash is a logical step because AG necessitates equipment purchases that will be an extra $100-200 most likely if you are currently doing kitchen-top boiling.

I just recently did my first AG on the kitchen stove and managed to get a 4+ gal boil going after a while but chilling was a pain and even then that wasn't a full boil I had to top up with spring water.

When I do a PM I try to use enough grain so that the amount of extract is limited to as little as possible.

 

[tentacles]

Biggest hurdle for me is space. I live in a 750sqft apartment with a wife and a bird. No garage, no hose, no place to keep a keggle, no place to keep a huge cooler, no place to keep 50+ pounds of grain etc etc. Sure I *COULD* put all this stuff in my living room or something but then I would be in the dog house eternally. I could brew on my front lawn with propane tanks, but it would be very very odd. I do have a deck upstairs but its a little too small for an open flame and a keggle. I can do partial boils using extract easy enough and the beer tastes good. At the moment there is really no desire go to to AG short of saving a few bucks on ingredients. Maybe when I get a house and have lots of man space I can flex my EAC arms and get some keggles. Heck, I'm lucky to have a 33 gallon air compressor (that hasnt been used since I moved in). I dont even have a mig welder...if it wasnt for that air compressor I would have a hard time calling myself a man!! HAHA!

Really once you have the equipment working, its a rather simple process. Bite the bullet and do some tried and true recipes, dial in your setup, then get creative with your own stuff.

I too live in a small apartment - but I do 5 gal AG batches. I have a 20L pot and a 9L pot and split the boil. I mash in a 5 gal cooler on my kitchen table, while mashing I heat sparge water in my 9L pot. I heat more sparge water while the sparge is soaking. The second sparge drains into the 9L pot. I can easily boil 17-18L in my 20L pot on the stove, and boil the 9L at the same time.

I only have a 24 inch stove, and a tiny kitchen. My last (second!) all grain took me 4 1/2 hours. Not bad at all! I plan on finding myself a nice SS or aluminum 24-30qt boiling pot though.

My post is a bit off topic, but I have to say, my AG batches do have something my extract didn't - I'm not decided whether I like it or not yet though. I brewed 2 batches of Wild's blue moon clone, and I still can't get over how great they came out.

 

[devaspawn]

I have only done extract but I recently watched my brewbuddy do a PM. I have decided that, much like other posters, doing it all myself and not doing a betty crocker brownie kit is the way i want to go.

I have 8 extracts, 1 cider kit, and 1 edwort's apfelwein under my belt. I want to go to PM then AG eventually but a couple things are holding me back.

SWMBO is worried about my obsession for both the money it's costing and the potential mass consumption by yours truly.

The sheer cost of initial outlay for AG equipment is daunting - SWMBO will crush my remaining nut if I don't sneak a piece in a month at a time.

Here's the potential positives I see from PM an AG:

I am a little ADD and I find it hard to focus on tasks that take a long time (long time equals about an hour). If I find something that takes me 3 to 5 hours to do and I don't even realize the consumption of time because how involved I am in the process, I know I have found something that I like to do. I am only doing extracts and have only been doing it for two months. SWMBO says that I am a much more pleasant person to be around. I love to think and I love to be involved. Just imagine how please she'll be when I go AG because I will be so pleased that I have gone AG.

I saw a post by someone (I read this forum daily at several different times so I can't say where I read it) who said prior to the grain shortage they had stocked up. With the fact that they are growing their own hops, each 5 gallon batch is costing them 8 fracking dollars (I think it was Edwort)! The next question that the OP may be asking is, "Is it worth growing my own hops?" I would say yes to this.

 

[BierMuncher]

Man that beer picture has me drooling. How long did you lager that bad boy to get it so clear? Do you filter it?

No filtering for me.

Believe it or not that beer was just over 2 weeks from grain to glass.

Several keys to a quick beer:

A lighter grain bill.
Low to moderate IBU's (This Centennial Blonde was around 20-ish)
Pitch an adequate amount of yeast. (Used a half/cake from a prior batch)
Rack to a secondary once you've reached terminal gravity. (took about 36 hours to ferment out)
Use gelatin in the secondary.
Once cleared, rack to a keg and immediately chill/force carb.

Most of my APA's I'll now let sit in the primary for 2-3 weeks. But a light blonde like this...they're much quicker.

The local Micro-brew here has almost all of their beers go from grain to glass inside of 14 days. (Of course...they filter many of their beers )

 

[Tonedef131]

If you don't really want to go AG then don't. Personally I think it is something you have to be excited about to enjoy. As you can tell from most of the posts here, people who love AG, actually love the involved process. I only did one extract batch, it had steeped grains and turned out alright. I don't regret it because it really helped me get a feel for the brewing process, AG right off the bat would have been overwhelming.

However, I am the type of guy that likes things to be as involved as possible. So after that I immediatly did a partial mash that is the best beer I have made to date. I still wanted more, but didn't have the equipment to do an AG batch. So I created my first recipe and did that batch PM. I found myself pretty bored during that batch, so I dove right into AG for the next batch despite not really being able to afford it. I certainly have not regreted it, AG is what I had in mind when I pictured myself brewing beer. To me extract brewing is box-mix brownies, sure them taste good but the process is mind numbing. This all took about two months, and I don't see myself doing extract batches anymore.

So if you are satisfied with your beers and the level of control and don't feel like you really want more out of the process, stick to extract/pm. If you need more like I did, jump in the pool, you won't regret it.

 

[MikeFlynn74]

A LOT is 2 words........ sigh

 

[oguss0311]

Not that this is an original point for this thread, but I notice improved mouth-feel, body, fresh taste etc. in my partial mashes. I'm trying to be unbiased too. Plus- as also pointed out before- the options increase, and I'm Really digging that part of it. The grains play a larger role (redundant point, I know) and that has really increased my enjoyment of brewing too.

I'm going AG as soon as I gather up all the equipment.

 

[devaspawn]

A LOT is 2 words........ sigh

but allot is one word.

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

AG has generally a cheaper ingredients bill but that is offset by the many dollars you will end up spending on constant upgrades to your system.

While you have more means of control and larger choice of ingredients, you also have more things that can go wrong and it's more time consuming.

Personally I love it.

 

[brewhead]

many dollars you will end up spending on constant upgrades to your system.

dunno if i agree with the "consant upgrades" premise. true there is an initial upgrade to your equipment but since aquiring the toys - i haven't made an upgrade in years.

 

[WazzuBrew]

I enjoy extract brewing. I don't have a whole lot of spare time and this method works the best for me. Oh, and the beer is delicious!! I may attempt PM or AG one day. Not because I want to pretend I am better than anyone else (like some ******** on here), but for a greater challenge. I would love to get into kegging as well. This bottling stuff sucks.

 

[jtakacs]

i do what i call "heavy partials" - i can mash up to 6.0 lbs of grain comfortably on my stove top with the equipment i have, but obviously need DME... its not too bad and in one 5 gallon batch i can control a lot more variables than just using specialty grains.

a buddy of mine has a whole garage set up on casters for AG brewing and it was a year long project in itself to set it all up - frankly, i'm not sure you couldn't get away with a stovetop AG process if you had enough burners, pots, hands, helpers, etc... lol..

i have zero problem having 1/3 to 1/2 of my beer be DME. like others said earlier, you can control a lot more variables in AG.. pretty sure i'll get there eventually...