Is a closed transfer really necessary?

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Goose5

Goose5

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I've got to make a decision on which fermenter I'm going to buy. Its going to be a stainless something. How many of you are okay with your product without going through the trouble of a closed transfer?
 
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I stick a racking can in my plastic bucket on the kitchen counter into my keg on the floor that I do purge with with CO2 prior to racking. No problems here.
 
I have 2 SS Brewtech conicals and 1 Stout conical. I do NOT do closed transfers and think my beer tastes great. I just purge my keg with CO2 as much as possible without using the Starsan filled keg technique, tranfer the beer through the beer out post on the keg to minimize splashing and then purge with CO2 after the keg is full.
 
People who don't do closed transfers will say you don't need them. People who do use closed transfers will say you do (myself included). If you're getting a stainless fermenter I would recommend at least getting one which has the capability of pressure transfer, even if you dont use it. We would probably have less of the oxidized brown NEIPA threads if everyone pressure transferred.
 
^ X2. I have the equipment (Brewha BIAC and Brewers Hardware 15G fermenter) to do a closed transfer but no longer did it after three batches. Took too much time and you have to watch the weight of the keg; really a PITA. I just stick the end of the transfer hose into the CO2 infused keg. No loss of quality IMO.
 
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I just did my first closed transfer to a keg last week, from what i learned from a littleriver thread. Thanks by the way. Also just got my mylar balloons for preventing air suckback during cold crash. I had been just letting things happen or lately removing the air lock and throwing a starsan soaked rag over the open fermenter during cold crash. Better beer? Longer lasting flavor? The keg kicked in 2 days! The hop flavor to me seemed more pronounced, but that could be false perception since i was thinking about it anyway?
IMG_1776.jpg
 
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If you’re going to spend the money on stainless you might as well go with a conical that has the ability to close transfer especially if you enjoy brewing hoppy styles
 
I used to think that my open transfers were OK and the beers tasted great at home. But tranfering to bottles for competition often resulted in advanced aging. Since all my bottling is done with counter-pressure filling, I knew that wasn’t the source. It turned out to be that short air contact during transfer from fermenter to keg was the source. I now sanitizer fill and CO2 purge my kegs, push the beer out of the fermenter with CO2, and reverse fill the keg. My premature aging issue in bottled beers is gone.

Closed transfer is important.
 
I on the other hand say it is only as important as you make it. If you can do it why not? I haven't yet gotten the equipment necessary so I have never done it. My hoppy beers that I bottle, so air in transfer to bottling bucket and again when bottling, do not degrade noticeably with time. They do not lose flavor and aroma (with time) and they do not darken. But... I do drink them all within a month or so.

Time will tell if I change my mind on this, when and if I ever do a closed transfer.
 
I too used to think that my open transfers and the beer was fine. What I noticed was that after a while I would be less excited about having a beer that I loved a few weeks prior.

Now that I do closed transfers to purged kegs I have noticed a huge difference from beginning to end. The beer stays great and some improve.
 
Not sure why closed transfer is considered ‘trouble’. Transferring through the in post is just as easy as racking through the lid IMO: hook up a hose to the spigot, hook up the quick disconnect, turn on the spigot, hook up the out post QD, return CO2 hose to top of fermenter. VS hook up a hose to the spigot, put hose in keg, turn on the spigot.

The only difference is purging the keg first which after cleaning (which you have to do anyway), you just fill with sanitizer, and push it out with CO2.

Too easy not to do with the added benefit of lower O2 pickup.
 
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I think closed transfers is just one of many incremental steps to prolonging the shelf life/stability of beer.

Can you detect the difference on a freshly tapped keg? Maybe not. How about a keg that has been tapped for 2 months? Or with bottled beer transferred from a keg?

I think this is where closed transfers and other little procedures might start to pay off with extending the fresh flavor and stability of your beer.

BTW, large food and beverage processors have figured this stuff out for a long time now. Whether you think it is worth the extra effort, only you can decide.

The shelf life of everything you see in the store is much longer than 30 years ago.
 
brewbama said:
Not sure why closed transfer is considered ‘trouble’. Transferring through the in post is just as easy as racking through the lid IMO: hook up a hose to the spigot, hook up the quick disconnect, turn on the spigot, hook up the out post QD, return CO2 hose to top of fermenter. VS hook up a hose to the spigot, put hose in keg, turn on the spigot.

The only difference is purging the keg first which after cleaning (which you have to do anyway), you just fill with sanitizer, and push it out with CO2.

Too easy not to do with the added benefit of lower O2 pickup.
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You just mentioned all the trouble.. You have to make a setup to attach between the fermenter and the keg. I have no spigots on my fermenters so I would have extra equipment needed. You have to completely fill a keg with sanitizer and then use co2 to push it out.

Not much trouble. Open the fermenter, insert autosiphon, put the hose to the bottom of the keg, pump to start, fill the keg. BTW, I have never purged a keg or bottles.

Is it better to close transfer - yes. Is it necessary - definitely not. And I don't seem to be getting the degradation that is constantly mentioned.
 
LittleRiver said:
You can do closed transfers using gravity (pressurized C02 not needed), into a keg that fermentation has purged and filled with C02. You can cold crash without sucking back StarSan or oxygen into the fermenter. Like this.
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MikeOhio said:
I just did my first closed transfer to a keg last week, from what i learned from a littleriver thread. Thanks by the way. Also just got my mylar balloons for preventing air suckback during cold crash. I had been just letting things happen or lately removing the air lock and throwing a starsan soaked rag over the open fermenter during cold crash. Better beer? Longer lasting flavor? The keg kicked in 2 days! The hop flavor to me seemed more pronounced, but that could be false perception since i was thinking about it anyway?
View attachment 632533
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What do you do about the O2 in the hoses? Do you have a process for purging them, or is it too insignificant to worry about?
 
kh54s10 said:
You just mentioned all the trouble.. You have to make a setup to attach between the fermenter and the keg. I have no spigots on my fermenters ...
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You're already going to the trouble of brewing your own beer, but you're saying it's too much trouble to rig up a couple of hoses? ;)

If you are using glass fermenters, and are really in love with them, then I understand reluctance to add spigots. But with plastic or metal fermenters it's easy and cheap to add a spigot.

Once you have spigots, if you're already kegging you may already have the keg disconnects (in your spare parts box) that you need for making the hoses.

You have to completely fill a keg with sanitizer and then use co2 to push it out...
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You can do it that way, but it's not the only way.

It's actually quite easy to use fermentation gas to purge the keg. That's what I do.

...And I don't seem to be getting the degradation that is constantly mentioned.
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It's possible that all your beers are degrading and you have become accustomed to it, thus you don't notice it.

When I started doing closed transfers I noticed a difference. Flavors & aromas are brighter and they are definitely more stable between the first and last pour, regardless of how long the keg lasts.
 
kh54s10 said:
You have to make a setup to attach between the fermenter and the keg. I have no spigots on my fermenters so I would have extra equipment needed. You have to completely fill a keg with sanitizer and then use co2 to push it out.
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Not trying to be argumentative, but what you're talking about as trouble is exactly why, if you are looking at fermenters, you would want to consider one from which you can closed-transfer: you DON'T have to make a setup or have extra equipment.
That was the whole point of the OP's question, I think.
If you buy a fermenter that has the capability, it is no additional trouble whatsoever to closed transfer, so why buy one that doesn't have the capability?
Now if you're looking to do it with equipment you have now, there may be a slight hassle to devise a system.

I have close-transferred from keg to keg - easiest setup possible - even easier than an autosiphon or racking cane.

I currently close-transfer from my BrewBucket to keg. Also super easy and requires no additional equipment or setup. Gas in, beer out - beer in, gas out. Simple.

You may be overthinking the process and imagining it more complex than it really is.
 
cswant88 said:
What do you do about the O2 in the hoses? Do you have a process for purging them, or is it too insignificant to worry about?
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During Fermentation
The hose that goes from the fermenter to the black/beer port on the keg gets purged with fermentation gas.

During Transfer
The purged hose is moved to the grey/gas disconnect of the keg.
A second hose is added between the fermenter spigot and the black/beer post of the keg (mine is so short that I have not worried about purging it).

If I were to need a longer spigot hose what I would do is rig up a splice to put it in-line with the other hose during fermentation. For transfer, the hose would be separated into two (purged) pieces. Pinch clamps can be used on both sides of the splice, to hold in the gas while the connections are changed.
 
At the end of your brew day, save 1.5L of cooled wort in a sanitized 2qt mason jar and refrigerate it during primary fermentation. Once beer hits FG (within a day or two), add saved wort (aka "Speise") to keg, purge keg, then siphon or drain beer from the fermenter through the kegs 'OUT' port. Either by siphon or valve on fermenter. Then proceed with any D-rest or "warm-up" or "secondary" as desired. Keg full of clean beer will be beautifully carb'd within a week. Aging/lagering needs dependent upon the beer.

FWIW I've won 50+ awards in regional and national comp's with the above packaging method with an equal split of buckets, carboys, steel brew buckets and conicals used for primary fermentation. Hot Side (Brew Day) Process and Cold Side Handling are where it's at, IMO... Keep Primary Fermentation sanitary in between.
 
kh54s10 said:
You just mentioned all the trouble.. You have to make a setup to attach between the fermenter and the keg. I have no spigots on my fermenters so I would have extra equipment needed. You have to completely fill a keg with sanitizer and then use co2 to push it out.

Not much trouble. Open the fermenter, insert autosiphon, put the hose to the bottom of the keg, pump to start, fill the keg. BTW, I have never purged a keg or bottles.

Is it better to close transfer - yes. Is it necessary - definitely not. And I don't seem to be getting the degradation that is constantly mentioned.
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I hear ya. I guess I simply find it part of brewing beer. I enjoy the hobby so I enjoy each process I get to use. Cheers!
 
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The question asked was "Is a closed transfer really necessary?" My answer is no. Will the beer be better? More than likely. But necessary?
Then "trouble" was brought up. It absolutely adds steps, thus there is some trouble.

I may be "used to my beer degrading". But it has been described as the beer losing flavor and aroma, and with oxidation getting a wet cardboard character. That, and/or darkening over time. I have not had either of those problems. Yes, I am sure the flavor would be better. But then again I have not had one go bad. And certainly the bottled ones did not get perceptibly darker over time.

When I started brewing 9 years ago there was very little talk that I noticed about closed transfers. One reply said to plan and get fermenters with spigots. I don't like spigots for reasons I have noted in other threads. I have already bought my fermenters long ago without spigots, so if I have to change fermenters that definitely adds to the "trouble".

Even if I have all the parts necessary for the equipment, I would have to go through the "trouble" to assemble and use it. So there IS some trouble.

Some day I will probably adopt the process of closed transfers.

But I will still have the opinion that it is not necessary.
 
I only do a closed transfer for NEIPA and for those it makes a difference 100%. I have not noticed a difference with my other beers (mostly IPA and stout's) so as of now I only close transfer my NEIPA's. I keg my beer and most kegs are dead within 30-60 days fwiw.
 
kh54s10 said:
...It absolutely adds steps, thus there is some trouble...Some day I will probably adopt the process of closed transfers. But I will still have the opinion that it is not necessary.
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It's not necessary to use a closed fermentation vessel with a lid & airlock. An open fermentation is less trouble, and you'll end up with beer.

It's not necessary to chill the wort right after the boil. Letting the kettle cool naturally for a day or two is a lot less trouble, and you'll end up with beer.

I'm guessing you go to the trouble of those "unnecessary" steps, because you don't want an outside influence to change the character of the beer you have so carefully crafted. Oxygen is no different, it's an outside influence that changes the character of your finished beer.
 
cswant88 said:
What do you do about the O2 in the hoses? Do you have a process for purging them, or is it too insignificant to worry about?
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I wondered about this too until asking a friend what he does and said "duh!". Assuming you use the method Martin mentioned(pushing out sanitizer from serving keg using CO2), when you are readying transfer, connect the hose to the keg first, then purge the keg with more CO2 and it should purge the connecting tubing too blowing CO2 out of that. Then attach that to your fermentation vessel and transfer. If you want to run off your beer until it's clear, use a different hose to do that first.
 
kh54s10 said:
The question asked was "Is a closed transfer really necessary?" My answer is no. Will the beer be better? More than likely. But necessary?
Then "trouble" was brought up. It absolutely adds steps, thus there is some trouble.

Some day I will probably adopt the process of closed transfers.

But I will still have the opinion that it is not necessary.
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Two quick points:
1: You are absolutely correct that closed transfer is not necessary to make decent beer. Neither is pH control or water chemistry adjustments. I brewed for 15 or so years with straight tap water and made some very respectable beer.
There are many things that are not necessary to make beer, but each will incrementally improve your beer, and it is up to each brewer to decide where they want to make the cutoff of effort vs improvements. Closed transfer is one of those things.

2: Regarding "trouble": My point earlier is that it only requires extra steps if you don't have fermenters conducive to the process. If the OP is looking at purchasing a new fermenter, and makes an appropriate choice, then there is no additional step - it is as simple or easy as any method like autosiphoning in open containers. The question posed was "Is a closed transfer really necessary?" , BUT it was asked in the context of whether the OP should get a fermenter that is conducive to it or not, so choice of fermenter and fermenter features is the real question being asked. And if you are considering closed transfer, like the OP is, it just makes sense to get one that will do it.
 
WWJPD said:
I wondered about this too until asking a friend what he does and said "duh!". Assuming you use the method Martin mentioned(pushing out sanitizer from serving keg using CO2), when you are readying transfer, connect the hose to the keg first, then purge the keg with more CO2 and it should purge the connecting tubing too blowing CO2 out of that. Then attach that to your fermentation vessel and transfer. If you want to run off your beer until it's clear, use a different hose to do that first.
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Yes, you should always purge the lines with CO2 before starting a closed transfer.
 
This is another method where the people doing it seem to somehow acquire some "brew snobbery" As in LODO those supporting the process seem to give off an attitude that if you don't do it you are somehow inferior. I guess I am overreacting. But I do get the feeling that I am being looked down upon and that they believe that I cannot make a great beer if I don't adopt the procedure.
 
I decided to move to kegging solely to be able to enjoy hoppy beers with a longer shelf life. I do believe closed transfers impact this shelf life and beer flavor. I modified my current plastic setup to accommodate a closed transfer. Fairly painless and seems to be worthwhile.

That said, I'm a brewer who's always looking to simplify and I believe that many of the must-dos that we talk about really aren't.

Not sure how I square those two conflicting priorities. Also not sure I'd be able to tell the difference if I just racked the beer into the keg and then pressurized. Maybe I'll try doing it sometime and see if I can tell.
 
I can do closed gravity transfers from my 60L Speidel fermenter to purged kegs and it didn't cost a lot to set it up.

I added an internal SS pickup tube which has an external male quick disconnect to the Speidel and then to move beer to the keg I use some silicon hose with a female quick disconnect on one end and a corney liquid-in connector on the other.

When doing transfers I put a gas in connector on the keg to allow it to vent as my pin lock kegs don't have pressure relief valves in their lids.

It works great and though the jury is still out as to whether it is worth the extra effort the extra cost to do closed transfers was minimal, probably less than $25.

Personally I think the biggest benefit to closed transfers is noticed after the beer has been kegged a few weeks when I believe it tastes fresher than beer that was moved without a closed transfer but YMMV.
 
kh54s10 said:
This is another method where the people doing it seem to somehow acquire some "brew snobbery" As in LODO those supporting the process seem to give off an attitude that if you don't do it you are somehow inferior. I guess I am overreacting. But I do get the feeling that I am being looked down upon and that they believe that I cannot make a great beer if I don't adopt the procedure.
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I can see how some of the posts, including mine, may have given you that impression. My apologies if that's the case. Rest assured that's not at all what I was thinking.

I am not on the LODO train. I don't do any of the hot side stuff. I have adopted closed transfers after fermentation, and I'm convinced that makes a difference in stability of taste and aroma. I also perceive a slight difference in flavors being a bit "brighter", but that perception is subtle and could easily be my own confirmation bias. The long term stability of flavors and aromas, that is a big obvious difference for me, it's not confirmation bias.

You have repeatedly made the point that closed transfers involve extra "trouble". I've just been offering the counter point that it's really not that much trouble to setup and use. I find the payback to be worth more than whatever little time and expense I've put into it.
 
LittleRiver said:
You have repeatedly made the point that closed transfers involve extra "trouble". I've just been offering the counter point that it's really not that much trouble to setup and use. I find the payback to be worth more than whatever little time and expense I've put into it.
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I don't think he was necessarily say that it's too much trouble, or even a lot of trouble. He was just saying there was 'some' trouble, to counter other people that (incorrectly, in my opinion) are acting like it's the same exact work. I started with closed transfers a couple months ago, and it does take more steps and more time. I still do it though, because I think it's worth it (although most of my kegs are gone within about 4-6 weeks, so it's not an enormous difference to me).

When I do a closed transfer (using a spigot on my fermenter), I start out by filling my keg with Star San and pushing it out with CO2.

In the time it takes me to do that, I could have fill my keg halfway up with beer using an open transfer (remove lid, spray inside with Star San, connect tube to spigot, put the other end on the bottom of the keg, then open the valve). I also never have to worry about a clogged poppet with an open transfer, while I've had it happen more than once with a closed transfer (although it hasn't happened since I started straining my wort before pitching yeast).

I connect a gas disconnect to the airlock on top of the fermenter - that's a step that I don't need during an open transfer. It's not difficult, but it *something*.

So to me, it not a lot of extra work and I do think it's worth the time - but it's simply inaccurate to act like it's the same exact amount of work.
 
kh54s10 said:
This is another method where the people doing it seem to somehow acquire some "brew snobbery" As in LODO those supporting the process seem to give off an attitude that if you don't do it you are somehow inferior. I guess I am overreacting. But I do get the feeling that I am being looked down upon and that they believe that I cannot make a great beer if I don't adopt the procedure.
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While I am a proponent of closed transfers, I don't think I or anyone else is suggesting you can't make great beer without it. The biggest benefit of closed transfer is keeping your beer great longer.

There is no question that oxygen is the enemy of freshness, not only in beer, but in pretty much any food item. Beer (mine, yours, everybody's) begins to degrade through oxidation from the moment fermentation is complete. That's not snobbery, it's not LODO mysticism, it's just science and fact. Every person has a different threshold at which they can taste the effects, and if someone drinks the keg fast enough, you may not notice either.

Closed transfers, LODO, spunding, speisse, and all those other techniques are simply ways to reduce exposure to oxygen and thereby preserve fresh flavors longer. Speaking to you specifically, you may make great beer now. If you made two batches of the same great beer side-by-side and close-transferred one and open-transferred the other, the closed transfer will stay great longer. That's all.

But maybe you aren't bothered by the effects or maybe you drink it fast enough that oxidation doesn't really happen to a degree that you can perceive. If that's the case, you would not likely benefit from closed transfer.
 
Carolina_Matt said:
So to me, it not a lot of extra work and I do think it's worth the time - but it's simply inaccurate to act like it's the same exact amount of work.
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You're right, it is a LITTLE extra work (potentially very little, assuming you are already purging your kegs at least to some degree, which you should be even in open transfer), the degree of which varies by individual equipment setup. But so is monitoring pH or adjusting water chemistry with brewing salts. Every little thing we do to improve our beers takes some degree of effort, and each brewer has to decide when good enough is good enough and an incremental improvement, that may or may not even be perceptible, isn't worth the additional effort or equipment even if it's only a tiny bit more work.
 
The thing is all these "extras" that people do aren't hocus-pocus. People have been making professional beer for a long time and fortunately for us have already spend the time and money researching these things. The debate is always the same thing over and over. Some people feel that it's not worth the effort to make professional product and some do. There will never be a right or wrong as taste is subjective. If you prefer the taste of oxidized beer who can say your wrong? Cheers
 
Cavpilot2000 said:
But maybe you aren't bothered by the effects or maybe you drink it fast enough that oxidation doesn't really happen to a degree that you can perceive. If that's the case, you would not likely benefit from closed transfer.
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I guess it is the title that sidetracked me. "necessary" My replies are about necessity. I guess I do drink my beers fast enough that I don't perceive the degradation, maybe. I have had some that lasted until the flavor was on the down side. These were bottled and we are talking 6 months to 2 years before hitting the downside depending on styles. For hoppy beers and others that are more susceptible to oxidation, they are beers that I would normally drink quickly and do, so maybe they are not lasting long enough to make a big difference. My kegged beers have never lasted long enough that I noticed any degradation. It probably did happen but not to an extent that I even said "this one got oxidized".

Would I benefit from closed transfer? Most likely. Is it worth it to me to get the equipment set up to do it? Not at present.

Will I do closed transfers? More than likely at some point.
 
The question was
Goose5 said:
.... How many of you are okay with your product without going through the trouble of a closed transfer?
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I'm OK with it. :) I do both but honestly I can't tell you if there is a difference. The beer disappears too fast to note if time has an effect on either method of transfer.....
BUT if I were buying a new SS fermenter, I would want it to have the capability....I'd want it to have every capability:D. I don't think there is going to be much cost difference, if any, for one that can handle closed transfers in today's available fermenters.
 

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