Is a closed transfer really necessary?

[kh54s10]

This is another method where the people doing it seem to somehow acquire some "brew snobbery" As in LODO those supporting the process seem to give off an attitude that if you don't do it you are somehow inferior. I guess I am overreacting. But I do get the feeling that I am being looked down upon and that they believe that I cannot make a great beer if I don't adopt the procedure.

 

[tellyho]

I decided to move to kegging solely to be able to enjoy hoppy beers with a longer shelf life. I do believe closed transfers impact this shelf life and beer flavor. I modified my current plastic setup to accommodate a closed transfer. Fairly painless and seems to be worthwhile.

That said, I'm a brewer who's always looking to simplify and I believe that many of the must-dos that we talk about really aren't.

Not sure how I square those two conflicting priorities. Also not sure I'd be able to tell the difference if I just racked the beer into the keg and then pressurized. Maybe I'll try doing it sometime and see if I can tell.

 

[beernutz]

I can do closed gravity transfers from my 60L Speidel fermenter to purged kegs and it didn't cost a lot to set it up.

I added an internal SS pickup tube which has an external male quick disconnect to the Speidel and then to move beer to the keg I use some silicon hose with a female quick disconnect on one end and a corney liquid-in connector on the other.

When doing transfers I put a gas in connector on the keg to allow it to vent as my pin lock kegs don't have pressure relief valves in their lids.

It works great and though the jury is still out as to whether it is worth the extra effort the extra cost to do closed transfers was minimal, probably less than $25.

Personally I think the biggest benefit to closed transfers is noticed after the beer has been kegged a few weeks when I believe it tastes fresher than beer that was moved without a closed transfer but YMMV.

 

[LittleRiver]

This is another method where the people doing it seem to somehow acquire some "brew snobbery" As in LODO those supporting the process seem to give off an attitude that if you don't do it you are somehow inferior. I guess I am overreacting. But I do get the feeling that I am being looked down upon and that they believe that I cannot make a great beer if I don't adopt the procedure.

I can see how some of the posts, including mine, may have given you that impression. My apologies if that's the case. Rest assured that's not at all what I was thinking.

I am not on the LODO train. I don't do any of the hot side stuff. I have adopted closed transfers after fermentation, and I'm convinced that makes a difference in stability of taste and aroma. I also perceive a slight difference in flavors being a bit "brighter", but that perception is subtle and could easily be my own confirmation bias. The long term stability of flavors and aromas, that is a big obvious difference for me, it's not confirmation bias.

You have repeatedly made the point that closed transfers involve extra "trouble". I've just been offering the counter point that it's really not that much trouble to setup and use. I find the payback to be worth more than whatever little time and expense I've put into it.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

You have repeatedly made the point that closed transfers involve extra "trouble". I've just been offering the counter point that it's really not that much trouble to setup and use. I find the payback to be worth more than whatever little time and expense I've put into it.

I don't think he was necessarily say that it's too much trouble, or even a lot of trouble. He was just saying there was 'some' trouble, to counter other people that (incorrectly, in my opinion) are acting like it's the same exact work. I started with closed transfers a couple months ago, and it does take more steps and more time. I still do it though, because I think it's worth it (although most of my kegs are gone within about 4-6 weeks, so it's not an enormous difference to me).

When I do a closed transfer (using a spigot on my fermenter), I start out by filling my keg with Star San and pushing it out with CO2.

In the time it takes me to do that, I could have fill my keg halfway up with beer using an open transfer (remove lid, spray inside with Star San, connect tube to spigot, put the other end on the bottom of the keg, then open the valve). I also never have to worry about a clogged poppet with an open transfer, while I've had it happen more than once with a closed transfer (although it hasn't happened since I started straining my wort before pitching yeast).

I connect a gas disconnect to the airlock on top of the fermenter - that's a step that I don't need during an open transfer. It's not difficult, but it *something*.

So to me, it not a lot of extra work and I do think it's worth the time - but it's simply inaccurate to act like it's the same exact amount of work.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

This is another method where the people doing it seem to somehow acquire some "brew snobbery" As in LODO those supporting the process seem to give off an attitude that if you don't do it you are somehow inferior. I guess I am overreacting. But I do get the feeling that I am being looked down upon and that they believe that I cannot make a great beer if I don't adopt the procedure.

While I am a proponent of closed transfers, I don't think I or anyone else is suggesting you can't make great beer without it. The biggest benefit of closed transfer is keeping your beer great longer.

There is no question that oxygen is the enemy of freshness, not only in beer, but in pretty much any food item. Beer (mine, yours, everybody's) begins to degrade through oxidation from the moment fermentation is complete. That's not snobbery, it's not LODO mysticism, it's just science and fact. Every person has a different threshold at which they can taste the effects, and if someone drinks the keg fast enough, you may not notice either.

Closed transfers, LODO, spunding, speisse, and all those other techniques are simply ways to reduce exposure to oxygen and thereby preserve fresh flavors longer. Speaking to you specifically, you may make great beer now. If you made two batches of the same great beer side-by-side and close-transferred one and open-transferred the other, the closed transfer will stay great longer. That's all.

But maybe you aren't bothered by the effects or maybe you drink it fast enough that oxidation doesn't really happen to a degree that you can perceive. If that's the case, you would not likely benefit from closed transfer.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

So to me, it not a lot of extra work and I do think it's worth the time - but it's simply inaccurate to act like it's the same exact amount of work.

You're right, it is a LITTLE extra work (potentially very little, assuming you are already purging your kegs at least to some degree, which you should be even in open transfer), the degree of which varies by individual equipment setup. But so is monitoring pH or adjusting water chemistry with brewing salts. Every little thing we do to improve our beers takes some degree of effort, and each brewer has to decide when good enough is good enough and an incremental improvement, that may or may not even be perceptible, isn't worth the additional effort or equipment even if it's only a tiny bit more work.

 

[Blazinlow86]

The thing is all these "extras" that people do aren't hocus-pocus. People have been making professional beer for a long time and fortunately for us have already spend the time and money researching these things. The debate is always the same thing over and over. Some people feel that it's not worth the effort to make professional product and some do. There will never be a right or wrong as taste is subjective. If you prefer the taste of oxidized beer who can say your wrong? Cheers

 

[kh54s10]

But maybe you aren't bothered by the effects or maybe you drink it fast enough that oxidation doesn't really happen to a degree that you can perceive. If that's the case, you would not likely benefit from closed transfer.

I guess it is the title that sidetracked me. "necessary" My replies are about necessity. I guess I do drink my beers fast enough that I don't perceive the degradation, maybe. I have had some that lasted until the flavor was on the down side. These were bottled and we are talking 6 months to 2 years before hitting the downside depending on styles. For hoppy beers and others that are more susceptible to oxidation, they are beers that I would normally drink quickly and do, so maybe they are not lasting long enough to make a big difference. My kegged beers have never lasted long enough that I noticed any degradation. It probably did happen but not to an extent that I even said "this one got oxidized".

Would I benefit from closed transfer? Most likely. Is it worth it to me to get the equipment set up to do it? Not at present.

Will I do closed transfers? More than likely at some point.

 

[chezhed]

The question was

.... How many of you are okay with your product without going through the trouble of a closed transfer?

I'm OK with it. I do both but honestly I can't tell you if there is a difference. The beer disappears too fast to note if time has an effect on either method of transfer.....
BUT if I were buying a new SS fermenter, I would want it to have the capability....I'd want it to have every capability. I don't think there is going to be much cost difference, if any, for one that can handle closed transfers in today's available fermenters.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Heres a question to the people not doing closed transfers and feel it's not necessary. Is it your opinions that it literally makes zero difference and that pros and science are incorrect? or is it your opinion that it most definitely makes a difference as science, professionals and a few homebrewers claim but you don't care as you like the product your making as is. Cheers

 

[chezhed]

I'm reasonably sure it makes a difference though I have no "data" or specific observation to prove it. I close transfer from a conical. I open transfer from a carboy/bucket. I'm fine with either one but deep in my brain, I believe I would be "better" if I did nothing but close transfers.

Many, many years ago I submitted a brew in a competition and every score sheet cited "cardboard" as a fault and said things like "transfer slowly to avoid oxygenation," "examine your bottling practices to reduce oxygenation," "tastes papery---clean bottles and cap properly." That was before I had ever heard of closed pressure transfer. But since then I have always been super cautious about oxygenation and would prefer closed transfer all the time if the beer was going to competition or going to last. But since most of it is not in either of those categories, I just go with what the equipment can handle......back to my previous post...buy one that can handle it and viola.

 

[LittleRiver]

... I start out by filling my keg with Star San and pushing it out with CO2. In the time it takes me to do that, I could have fill my keg halfway up with beer using an open transfer ... I connect a gas disconnect to the airlock on top of the fermenter - that's a step that I don't need during an open transfer. It's not difficult, but it *something*... So to me, it not a lot of extra work and I do think it's worth the time - but it's simply inaccurate to act like it's the same exact amount of work.

I'm not acting like it's the exact same amount of work. I'm confident that a gravity powered closed transfer can be less work than an open siphon.

I've tried purging kegs using 5gal+ of StarSan & bottled gas, and also with fermentation gas. There's a clear winner in my mind -- I no longer use bottled gas for that purpose. All I do is give the keg a normal sanitizing rinse with a cup or two of SS, hook up the hose from the fermenter, and pop the airlock onto the keg.

The yeast do the work of purging the keg.

Gravity powers the transfer. Eliminating the need for pressurized C02 greatly simplifies things, eliminating many steps. I have my fermentation chamber at counter height, so I don't even have to move the fermenter for a transfer (it's heavy, and I don't want to disturb the trub). I pop the airlock off the keg, move the hose from the keg beer post to the gas post, hook up a short hose from the fermenter spigot to the beer post, then open the spigot.

It really is about the same amount of work as an open siphon transfer. Once you factor in cleanup, I'm confident it's less work, cleaning my little transfer hose is easier than cleaning a siphon.

 

[brewbama]

Yes, you should always purge the lines with CO2 before starting a closed transfer.

I’d only add that purging lines is extremely easy. You have a keg full of CO2 under pressure if it was purged. Just hook up the out post QD and as the CO2 is escaping slide the hose onto the spigot. The CO2 stops hissing. Then purge the in post line by connecting the QD and attach it to the blowoff port.

In my case, I believe close transfer is easier than gravity feed transfer thru an open lid. I say this because to transfer thru an open lid I have to get the fermenter spigot higher that the keg opening. That means lifting the full fermenter.

With close transfer I simply lay the keg on a 2x4 with the in post up to allow the CO2 to be pushed out. I don’t move the fermenter.

 

[kh54s10]

q

Heres a question to the people not doing closed transfers and feel it's not necessary. Is it your opinions that it literally makes zero difference and that pros and science are incorrect? or is it your opinion that it most definitely makes a difference as science, professionals and a few homebrewers clam but you don't care as you like the product your making as is. Cheers

As I have already responded: It depends.... How much difference do you need. If you get good results without closed transfers - continue. If you need better... closed.... Simple as that!

 

[LittleRiver]

...I simply lay the keg on a 2x4 with the in post up...

I don't have a lot of height difference between my fermenter and keg, so my transfers are a bit slow, but I never thought to lay the keg on its side. I will now. Thanks!

 

[brewbama]

I don't have a lot of height difference between my fermenter and keg, so my transfers are a bit slow, but I never thought to lay the keg on its side. I will now. Thanks!

Just be cognizant that the black ‘out post’ is low and the grey ‘in post’ is high which allows the CO2 bubble to escape. Cheers!

 

[cswant88]

I wondered about this too until asking a friend what he does and said "duh!". Assuming you use the method Martin mentioned(pushing out sanitizer from serving keg using CO2), when you are readying transfer, connect the hose to the keg first, then purge the keg with more CO2 and it should purge the connecting tubing too blowing CO2 out of that. Then attach that to your fermentation vessel and transfer. If you want to run off your beer until it's clear, use a different hose to do that first.

I’m thinking of going the purge with fermentation gas route. The keg would not be under pressure. Thinking about clamps or in-line shut offs to keep the o2 out of the hoses while I’m swapping disconnects around. It would be easier with a pressurized keg.

 

[Soulshine2]

What do you do about the O2 in the hoses? Do you have a process for purging them, or is it too insignificant to worry about?

I use oxygen absorbing caps

 

[Bubman]

I'm not acting like it's the exact same amount of work. I'm confident that a gravity powered closed transfer can be less work than an open siphon.

I've tried purging kegs using 5gal+ of StarSan & bottled gas, and also with fermentation gas. There's a clear winner in my mind -- I no longer use bottled gas for that purpose. All I do is give the keg a normal sanitizing rinse with a cup or two of SS, hook up the hose from the fermenter, and pop the airlock onto the keg.

The yeast do the work of purging the keg.

Gravity powers the transfer. Eliminating the need for pressurized C02 greatly simplifies things, eliminating many steps. I have my fermentation chamber at counter height, so I don't even have to move the fermenter for a transfer (it's heavy, and I don't want to disturb the trub). I pop the airlock off the keg, move the hose from the keg beer post to the gas post, hook up a short hose from the fermenter spigot to the beer post, then open the spigot.

It really is about the same amount of work as an open siphon transfer. Once you factor in cleanup, I'm confident it's less work, cleaning my little transfer hose is easier than cleaning a siphon.

This is a cool idea, read the thread where you posted pictures and I am going to try this.
I can defiantly taste and notice reduced hop aroma with hop forward beers after about a week in the keg.

This gives me an excuse to buy another keg

 

[MGamber]

I spoke with a brewer at Allagash about why I wasn't getting the hop aroma I would expect after dumping several ounces of dry hop into a NEIPA. He told me about fermenting in corny kegs and doing a closed transfer so I tried it out and it sure made a difference. Now I can smell the beer as soon as I open the tap and it lasts much longer than before I started the practice. I have no idea if it matters as much with other styles but if you plan on doing NEIPAs with any regularity, I'd call it a must.

 

[LittleRiver]

This is a cool idea, read the thread where you posted pictures and I am going to try this...

It is a cool idea, and it's not mine! What I've done is a derivative of ideas I got from several good folks here on HBT. @doug293cz did the calculations to determine that fermentation provides enough C02 to effectively purge an empty keg.

This gives me an excuse to buy another keg

Same here, when I started doing this I bought another keg.

 

[Bubman]

How are you guys dry hopping with this method?

 

[Blazinlow86]

How are you guys dry hopping with this method?

Not sure your question? I think most are dryhopping in the fermentor.

 

[shoengine]

People who don't do closed transfers will say you don't need them. People who do use closed transfers will say you do (myself included). If you're getting a stainless fermenter I would recommend at least getting one which has the capability of pressure transfer, even if you dont use it. We would probably have less of the oxidized brown NEIPA threads if everyone pressure transferred.

I do closed transfers and I have no idea if it helps. The upside is that I now use a very consistent, repeatable process, although the downside is it cost me about $100 for the modifications.

It could be making better beer or worse beer, for all the data I've collected on this.

 

[LittleRiver]

How are you guys dry hopping with this method?

There's a thread here that discusses several possible methods for low/no O2 dry hopping.

 

[Bubman]

Not sure your question? I think most are dryhopping in the fermentor.

I was wondering how to add dry hops when using a keg to collect co2 from fermentation to do closed loop filling of that keg from the fermentor.
By opening the fermentor to add dry hops you would be defeating the purpose of a no oxygen transfer to the keg.

There's a thread here that discusses several possible methods for low/no O2 dry hopping.

Wow! There are some wild and interesting ideas in that thread!
I'm surprised one of the conical manufacturers don't offer a triclamp attachment with some sort of inverted container with a butterfly valve that would attach to the lid port and can be purged with co2 from fermentation to allow adding hops

 

[Blazinlow86]

I was wondering how to add dry hops when using a keg to collect co2 from fermentation to do closed loop filling of that keg from the fermentor.
By opening the fermentor to add dry hops you would be defeating the purpose of a no oxygen transfer to the keg.



Wow! There are some wild and interesting ideas in that thread!
I'm surprised one of the conical manufacturers don't offer a triclamp attachment with some sort of inverted container with a butterfly valve that would attach to the lid port and can be purged with co2 from fermentation to allow adding hops

I don't purge my kegs that way as I have plenty of CO2 on hand but I would imagine most are just add dryhops into the fermentor near the end of fermentation as is normally done. Myself and some others additionally flood the conical with co2 when the top ports open and additionally purge with co2 once it sealed back up. Cheers

 

[johngg123]

I just had a massive FAIL on my first attempt at a closed transfer.

Here’s what I did...

My Spiedel fermenter was up on a table and the ball lock on the floor.

I rigged up a ball lock connector to about a foot of tubing.

I connected the tubing to the spigot on my Spiedel fermenter and hooked the other end to the ball lock dip tube on the purged keg. Opened the pressure relief valve and clicked it to stay open. Then I opened the spigot on the fermenter. To my horror the air in the tubbing bubbled up through the beer. Not good for oxidation.

Then the beer flowed for about 10 seconds then the transfer immediately clogged.

What did I do wrong?

 

[shoengine]

Was there any positive pressure on the liquid in the spiedel ?