IPA'S: What's the point of 15, 10, 5 additions?

[jammin]

Seriously - whats the point? Don't even get me started on 30 minute additions...

Lately Ive been moving all these late additions to zero and/or hopback with awesome results.

I believe 1 bittering addition makes controlling bitterness much easier and you retain more flavor/aroma in your finishing hops.


People talk about "hop bursting" but in my experience, it's just a waste. If it's hop aroma/flavor you're after - why on earth would you want to boil your hops?

 

[cheddarhed3]

Being a relative noob to homebrewing and a huge fan of IPA's, this is a very intriguing question. I really look forward to the varied responses and techniques. Cheers!!

 

[bleme]

I did a cascadian dark with NO hops in the boil. I added all my hops after flameout, whirlpooled for 20 minutes, and chilled. Turned out awesome!

I have also turned out some great IPA's with 15/10/5 though...

 

[Snicklefritz]

I've been doing the same lately. Even easier to control the bitterness when using extract for the bittering addition as well. Then all flameout/whirlpool with a nice hop stand.

 

[Chadwick]

It is all about the aroma vs. the bitterness.

The earlier in the boil you introduce the hops the more bitterness they contribute verses aroma.

If you doubt this wisdom, I suggest the following experiment.

Make two beers using a stong hop, like Columbus. Add 5-6 ounces of Columbus at 60 min for one batch and no more. For the second batch add 5-6 ounces of Columbus at 10 min left in the boil without adding any other hops at any other time.

You will notice a pronounced difference between these two beers. The early hop additon beer will have a pronounced hop bitterness. The late additon beer will have very little hop bitterness, but it will have a very strong hop aroma and a "flower-like" hop flavor.

I mentioned Columbus hops for a reason. It's great hop that provides good results in either the bitterness or aroma departments. I prefer it as an aroma hop. That flower-like hop flavor that Columbus provides is incredibly good. But it also bitters well too. It is an awesome hop variety. Very strong effects however you choose to use it. It is simply pronounced in its effects. It has a very American taste. But I like that about it. I'm not a huge fan of Noble Hop flavors and profiles.

Anyhow, if you do that little experiement you will understand. And why not do it? I know I cannot convince you of anything as well as you can convince yourself through experience. So give it a try and see for yourself.

 

[FatDragon]

It is all about the aroma vs. the bitterness.

The earlier in the boil you introduce the hops the more bitterness they contribute verses aroma.

If you doubt this wisdom, I suggest the following experiment.

Make two beers using a stong hop, like Columbus. Add 5-6 ounces of Columbus at 60 min for one batch and no more. For the second batch add 5-6 ounces of Columbus at 10 min left in the boil without adding any other hops at any other time.

You will notice a pronounced difference between these two beers. The early hop additon beer will have a pronounced hop bitterness. The late additon beer will have very little hop bitterness, but it will have a very strong hop aroma and a "flower-like" hop flavor.

I mentioned Columbus hops for a reason. It's great hop that provides good results in either the bitterness or aroma departments. I prefer it as an aroma hop. That flower-like hop flavor that Columbus provides is incredibly good. But it also bitters well too. It is an awesome hop variety. Very strong effects however you choose to use it. It is simply pronounced in its effects. It has a very American taste. But I like that about it. I'm not a huge fan of Noble Hop flavors and profiles.

Anyhow, if you do that little experiement you will understand. And why not do it? I know I cannot convince you of anything as well as you can convince yourself through experience. So give it a try and see for yourself.

OP is quite aware of bittering vs. aroma hops; he's questioning late boil additions and positing that post-boil additions are a better way to get aroma and flavor from your hops, since boiling hops will reduce the aroma contribution as compared to steeping at below-boiling temperatures after the boil.

 

[klinus]

This is super interesting! A question though: in (for example) Beersmith, a 0 min edition renders nothing on the IBU scale. If youre a noob like me, how do you count the ibus to get to an ipa for example? Do you add up to 60i bus on 60 minutes plus the 0 minutes addition, or do you add up to maybe 30 ibu on 60 minutes, and equal amount on flameout?

 

[dyqik]

Seriously - whats the point? Don't even get me started on 30 minute additions...

Lately Ive been moving all these late additions to zero and/or hopback with awesome results.

I believe 1 bittering addition makes controlling bitterness much easier and you retain more flavor/aroma in your finishing hops.


People talk about "hop bursting" but in my experience, it's just a waste. If it's hop aroma/flavor you're after - why on earth would you want to boil your hops?

Flavor and aroma aren't the same thing, and are produced in beer in different ways. Boiling hops for a short amount of time changes the flavor contributions, by converting some of the aroma compounds to flavor compounds and introduces flavor compounds not found naturally in the hops. There's plenty of brewing science behind flavor additions, and they do a different thing to aroma additions.

e.g. http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.php

In general, any additions with less than 30 minutes left in the boil and prior to cooling the wort are considered late hop additions. Although some hop oils are lost during this shorter boil, reactions between the hop compounds and the wort create other desirable flavor-active compounds not found in hops.

 

[bleme]

This is super interesting! A question though: in (for example) Beersmith, a 0 min edition renders nothing on the IBU scale. If youre a noob like me, how do you count the ibus to get to an ipa for example? Do you add up to 60i bus on 60 minutes plus the 0 minutes addition, or do you add up to maybe 30 ibu on 60 minutes, and equal amount on flameout?

BeerSmith has a new feature which calculates IBU's from a whirlpool. To try it out, I put in 5oz of hops at flameout and adjusted the length of my whirlpool in BeerSmith to get the desired IBU's. I got bitterness, flavor and aroma all from the same hops that way.

 

[Warthaug]

People have been dancing around the answer. The long & short of it is...

Flavour and aroma characters from hops are extracted at different rates and are volatile - the net effect being that single flavour/aroma additions often don't produce a beer that reflects the full flavour/aroma palate of the hop. The 10-15 minute additions will do a good job of extracting certain flavours, but other more volatile flavours (and especially aromas) will be extracted and then boiled off (e.g. lost). Shorter additions (0 min, 5min) allow you to capture those volatile characteristics, but have poor extraction of the flavours that emerge in the longer boils.

I've played with this a little, testing different hop addition schedules in sequential batches. While comparing flavours batch-to-batch isn't always easy, my impression was that they more staged additions had a fuller and more complex flavour/aroma profile, while using the more traditional single flavour (15min) and single aroma (flame-out) additions created a flavour/aroma profile where one flavour/aroma tended to dominate. As an example, I've found with cascade that I get a better balance between the citrus and dank flavours/aromas with multiple late additions, whereas the traditional 15min/0min additions lacks a lot of the citrus and leans strongly towards the dank.

I think whirlpooling is going to change a lot of this - its hot enough to extract all of these compounds, but isn't boiling, so there should be less loss of volatiles. I've played a little with whirlpooling and like the results, but I haven't done any sort of deliberate comparisons as yet.

Bryan

 

[dyqik]

It's not just different extraction rates - boiling the flavor additions produces new flavor compounds from the compounds extracted from the hops that wouldn't otherwise be present at all. Now, whirlpooling or warm steeping might also produce some or all of those compounds, but it will be at different rates and ratios to additions to boiling wort.

 

[globe]

BeerSmith has a new feature which calculates IBU's from a whirlpool. To try it out, I put in 5oz of hops at flameout and adjusted the length of my whirlpool in BeerSmith to get the desired IBU's. I got bitterness, flavor and aroma all from the same hops that way.

I dont know how this is calculated in beersmith but is seems way off to my taste at least. My beer does not taste overly bitter at all but yet the whirpool hops are supposedly adding 60+ IBUs according to beersmith. I suppose it could be true but if so the bitterness is nothing like the bitterness of a 60 min addition. Has anyone done any studies on this yet?

 

[opiate82]

Mitch Steele claimed during a Basic Brewing Radio podcast that late kettle additions help stabilize a beers hop profile increasing the shelf-life of a hoppy beer. He basically said they have concluded at Stone that for great IPA's you need all types of additions, from bittering to late-kettle to whirlpool to dry hop. Trying to do all one type or another have had less than desirable results.

But I'm not sure if shelf-life issues are as much of a problem on the homebrew level as they are for a company like Stone trying to get their IPA all over the country so our experiences may vary.

 

[The_Glue]

Do i lose aroma/oil extraction if u just add my zero minute hops into a static wort? (by static i mean that there is no stirring or bubbles going on)

 

[thisisbeer]

I can't get very scientific on the subject. I used to think the same way about late hop additions. Why not just add them all at flameout? Then I noticed a lot of clone recipes handed out be certain breweries that do divulge that information. A lot of times they had mid hop additions. So I thought there had to be something to it. Turns out there is, at least for me. I noticed a big difference in my house IPA by moving some of those late hops to a 20 minute addition. The recipe was -

.75 ounce pearle 60 min
.5 mosaic 0 min
.5 oz el derado 0 min
1 oz cascade 0 min
.5 oz simcoe 0 min
1 oz amirillo 0 min

Then I did

.75 ounce pearle 60 min
.5 mosaic 20 min
.5 oz el derado 20 min
.5 oz cascade 20 min
.5 oz cascade 0 min
.5 oz simcoe 0 min
1 oz amarillo 0 min

Same hops and base grains, just a different hop schedule. I was very surprised by the results. It still had a great aroma, but the flavor was very noticeably different, and in a really good way. This was a few months ago and have since thought people really miss out on what flavor contributions can do. I have seen a TON of recipe critiques on here where people recommended moving all the mid boil hops to the end. I would advise against it.

I have also tested a few recipes to see how I could increase aroma. In my case late hop additions just didn't do it. Just because I added a ton of hops after flame out didn't make my aroma pop like I wanted. A combination of properly dry hopping and late boil hops made the biggest difference for me.

I'm certainly not taking away from whirlpool hops, I just think its not all you should be concerned with. If the commercial guys use mid boil hops then there has to be something to it. I would think anyway.

 

[bleme]

I dont know how this is calculated in beersmith but is seems way off to my taste at least. My beer does not taste overly bitter at all but yet the whirpool hops are supposedly adding 60+ IBUs according to beersmith. I suppose it could be true but if so the bitterness is nothing like the bitterness of a 60 min addition. Has anyone done any studies on this yet?

I was aiming for 60 IBU's and I feel like I got pretty close. It is different though as it seems smoother and less lingering than other 60 IBU beers that I made using traditional methods.

 

[bleme]

I'm certainly not taking away from whirlpool hops, I just think its not all you should be concerned with. If the commercial guys use mid boil hops then there has to be something to it. I would think anyway.

The biggest problem with using the whirlpool to bitter is that it isn't cost effective. Commercial breweries figure 15% isomerization in the whirlpool vs 35% in the boil. On a commercial scale, that is HUGE.

 

[bleme]

Do i lose aroma/oil extraction if u just add my zero minute hops into a static wort? (by static i mean that there is no stirring or bubbles going on)

Some, but you don't need to stir constantly to get good extraction. Do an experiment with 2 clear glasses filled with hot water and drop a tea bag in each. Stir one glass every 15 seconds and at the end of a minute, pull the tea bags out of both. The one you stirred should be noticeably darker.

 

[The_Glue]

Some, but you don't need to stir constantly to get good extraction. Do an experiment with 2 clear glasses filled with hot water and drop a tea bag in each. Stir one glass every 15 seconds and at the end of a minute, pull the tea bags out of both. The one you stirred should be noticeably darker.

True, i should have dumped those hops in the fermenter at least

 

[jammin]

that's what i call a dainty hop schedule

my house IPA:

.75 ounce pearle 60 min
.5 mosaic 0 min
.5 oz el derado 0 min
1 oz cascade 0 min
.5 oz simcoe 0 min
1 oz amirillo 0 min

Then I did

.75 ounce pearle 60 min
.5 mosaic 20 min
.5 oz el derado 20 min
.5 oz cascade 20 min
.5 oz cascade 0 min
.5 oz simcoe 0 min
1 oz amarillo 0 min

 

[johnmac22]

^^^i think this recipe would be good for me...I'm just getting into hoppy beers and wouldn't want to over do anything


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[progmac]

what a great thread.

i don't make a lot of IPAs, but have been experimenting with mostly whirlpool type hopping. part of the issue for me is that the bitterness contribution of four or five ounces of high alpha acid hops in the whirlpool is significant enough that i barely want to add anything during the boil for free of going overboard on the bitterness.

but, just the other day, i had what registered to me and other tasters as an ipa with very intense flavor and aroma. i asked about the recipe. only a single ounce of amarillo at 15min and another ounce at 0min. that's it! no whirlpooling or anything. i would havehonestly guessed it had 4 ounces of hops in the whirlpool plus an ounce of dryhop. it wasn't even that fresh.

i think for my next ipa, i'll do some very low AA hops at 15, 10, 5, and then do my higher AA hops in the whirlpool.

 

[Yooper]

I am making an IPA today. I really like both traditional hop schedules and whirl pooling hops in the same beer.

I really think it gives layers and depth of flavor by using some late hop additions in the boil. I do like the very hoppy nose I get from whirlpool hops though.

I have a pale ale on tap right now that used hopbursting, with 3 ounces of Galaxy hops at 15 minutes and then five minutes and zero minute additions as well. It's very good. It may be missing some of the very firm bitterness I get from a 60 minute addition, but the bitterness there is still adequate.

I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all hop schedule for all beers.

 

[JKaranka]

I used a 90/40/20/0 hop schedule recently and the hop flavour seems to have had a better 'grip' than my usual 60/15/5/0.

 

[philosofool]

I seriously doubt you could brew a BJCP style-appropriate IPA with nothing but whirlpool additions. The aroma and flavor would have to reach IIPA levels before you could start to hit the right bitterness level. Maybe that's how you like your "IPA" but you're not actually brewing a classic american IPA that way.

Of course, everyone should brew according to his preference... which is why some people brew classic american IPA and use a traditional hop schedule.

Additionally, you can brew really delicious not-classic american IPA with only traditional kettle additions and dry hoping.

My Super Simple IPA Scheme

pale malt + 5-10% Crystal (15-60L) to 1.065, mashed between 147 and 151

Magnum, CTZ, or Warrior to reach 70 IBU
1 oz. english and/or american hops, 20 mins (1 or 2 varieties)
1oz. same hops, dry hopped about 10 days
California or attenuative english ale yeast

That makes lovely beer: drinkable, bitter, hoppy.

For a more imperial type IPA, just double the dry hops, increase IBU to 100, add two pounds of base malt and mash at 149 or less for 75 minutes.

 

[bleme]

I seriously doubt you could brew a BJCP style-appropriate IPA with nothing but whirlpool additions. The aroma and flavor would have to reach IIPA levels before you could start to hit the right bitterness level.

This really depends on how long you whirlpool and at what temperature. Whirlpooling is more flexible than boiling because of the temperature variable.

 

[jammin]

Bump.

Fun to look to back at all the ridicul I received for this 2 years ago. Now it's considered common practice

 

[g-star]

Bump.

Fun to look to back at all the ridicul I received for this 2 years ago. Now it's considered common practice

Clearly you're a homebrew visionary...please enlighten us as to what we will all be doing in 2018. First, point us in the direction of the parade and fireworks.

 

[jammin]

Clearly you're a homebrew visionary...please enlighten us as to what we will all be doing in 2018. First, point us in the direction of the parade and fireworks.

i predict that you will still be trying to clone Heady Topper and gotten virtually nowhere

 

[bleme]

Funny that this got bumped this week as at my club meeting a guy brought 2 IPA's that he made strictly with whirlpool hops. He had calculated 72 IBU's each but it was closer to 55 by my palette; nice and juicy.

We also had a club member demonstrate his latest experiment. He had made a Citra IPA with 5oz of Citra dry hop. After 7 days of dry hopping, he pulled them out and froze them. In his next batch, he added those 'wet' hops as his 60/30/15/0 additions, with 5 'fresh' ounces in the dry hop. It made a great tasting beer!