IPA's - Just can't nail them

[Graeme]

It's a frustrating thing. It's myself and my brew buddy's favourite style and despite several attempts we haven't been able to brew an IPA we are happy with. The water profile here in Dublin I'm sure is part of the problem, so we've been using calcium and also PH 5.2 stabliser.

Our IPA's always seem to have this unwanted complexity, almost like some of the Belgian and Danish IPA's I've tasted in the past. They are missing that clean hop profile which is being ousted by everything else if that makes sense. The hops also seem to fade quite fast. Another thing that might be contributing to it is the Marris Otter we're using as our base malt. I've heard American two-row is more delicate, but obviously I cant get a hold of that.

In any case, if any of you fine folk could give me any tips or pointers I would really appreciate it, I'm eager to brew this style wel!

Thanks allot!
Graeme

 

[Revvy]

Why don't you post one of your "lousy" recipes, complete with your water profile, what you do with the water, hopping ration, etc. That way maybe we can pinpoint something specific.

I personally do a lot os single malt IPA with MO and love it over 2-row most of the time.

 

[mburnett274]

I agree with Revvy. when you post your recipe be specific about how and when you hop your wort.

 

[Graeme]

Sorry, I should have been more specific with some recipes. I don't have a water report, I have contacted my council numerous times but they don't seem bothered and keep passing me from one person to the next. I use PH 5.2 & a teaspoon of gypsum on the mash. I use an additional teaspoon of gypsum during the boil. An example of a recipe would be a Bells Two Hearted Clone we attempted which is as followed:

76*C mash
77% MO
17% Vienna
4% Crystal
3% Carapils

30g Centennial leaf 11.9 AA @ 60min
25g Centennial leaf 11.9 AA @ 20min
20g Centennial leaf 11.9 AA @ 5min
20g Centennial leaf 11.9 AA @ 1min
50g Centennial Dry hopping

Safale US-05 yeast.
OG:1.060
FG:1.010

This one was a disappointing and best describes what I was talking about in my OP. I know not having the water report doesn't help, but perhaps on the basis of the recipe I posted someone will be able to offer some advice.

Thanks

 

[EBloom97]

One thing you could try is doing a batch entirely from bottled water. Do the same batch and see if it comes out different.

Another way to go if you ruled out water as the problem is hop bursting: http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.htm

 

[broadbill]

your mash is way, way too high.....76C is 169F.....even if you were getting conversion at that temp, its would would have alot of unfermentables. You want IPAs to finish dry....mash at 149F

Otherwise, it all looks good except maybe for that Vienna in there? I dunno...maybe bump it down a bit?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Follow broadbill's mash advice for sure.

For a Two Hearted clone, the hops seem a bit light (unless you're doing a batch that's significantly smaller than 5 gallons/19 liters). Triple the late addition hop amounts (5 min/1 min).

 

[kanzimonson]

Yeah, your late hopping looks more like a pale ale. In my pale ales I put 28-35g in at 10min, and then same at 0min. For IPAs, it's at least 50g at 10 and 0, and frequently a 20 or 15min addition of the same amount. 50g dry hopping is average for an IPA so no need to change there.

Also, you didn't mention a fermentation temp. Your descriptions of "unwanted complexity" sound more like a yeast/ester problem, especially if the word "Belgian" is a descriptor that's coming to your mind. Definitely make an attempt to ferment in the lower temp ranges. And maybe you'll want to cut back on the complexity of your grain bill? Taking Revvy's advice of doing a single malt IPA would give you a sense of how basic the malt profile really can get.

 

[Mischief_Brewing]

I've found that golden promise is a lot more IPA friendly than MO.

 

[Homercidal]

I've seen a few people using MO for IPA and I don't think that the problem. If you are really mashing that high, I think that could be one problem. Drying it out more, (mashing lower) will help alleviate some of the malt complexity, and allow the hops to come through more.

And it never hurts to add more hops!. I'm not up on the metric system, so I can't really comment on the relative amounts, but others have said the late hop additions were a bit light, and for American IPA style, the more the better!

I've got a batch of American IPA in the fermenter right now, made with Golden Promise. We'll see how it turns out in a couple of weeks.

 

[wildwest450]

Also what are you're fermenting temps? Try to go low for a cleaner profile, I ferment all my ipa's in the low 60's, or 15-16Celsius.

 

[Yooper]

I wouldn't just add gypsum to an IPA without knowing the water makeup. I'd skip the gypsum until I knew my water report.

I'm not a fan of MO as a base malt in American IPAs, but you can certainly make do if you have to with it.

As others said, increase the late hops and reduce the mash temperature. I mash at 153 for IPAs- I don't know what that is in celsius off the top of my head- and use plain old US 2 row along with maybe some crystal malt or aromatic malt in a very small quantity.

For a Two-Hearted type beer, just some basemalt and one specialty malt will get you closer than a menagerie of malts. I'd ditch the carapils for sure- more crystal isn't going to get you "hoppier" beer.

 

[spiny_norman]

Also what are you're fermenting temps? Try to go low for a cleaner profile, I ferment all my ipa's in the low 60's, or 15-16Celsius.

That's what fixed it for my IPAs. Cool ferment (62 to 64), and to then slowly increase to 68 towards the end to get 80%+ attenuation (and a diacetyl rest) and to let it go for 3 weeks in total for the yeast to clean up before cold crashing .

I mash my IPAs between 149 and 151 'cause I like them dry.

 

[spiny_norman]

...and use plain old US 2 row along with maybe some crystal malt or aromatic malt in a very small quantity

Some of the homebrew recipes for clones seem to use way to much specialty malt. My favorite commercial double IPA (I bugged the brewer) is 95% 2 row. The rest is a very small amount of lightly kilned crystal (something like C20) and a bit of wheat malt.

Bewdog's Hardcore IPA I believe is 100% base malt.

 

[spiny_norman]

I'd skip the gypsum until I knew my water report

+1 on this. Check out the Dublin water profile. Gypsum not required. The 5.2 stabilizer you might want to keep though.

http://www.brewerslair.com/index.php?p=brewhouse&d=water&id=&v=&term=3

Edit: disregard this. I looked this up prior to drinking my first coffee of the day, but the vital statistics are there.

Calcium (ppm): 120
Sulfates (ppm): 54
Magnesium (ppm): 4
Sodium (ppm): 12
Chloride (ppm): 19
Carbonates (ppm): 319

(The irony is that this resource describes how to build Dublin water from distilled.)

 

[2bluewagons]

IPAs are all about the hops, so while you want to have balance with ester profile, malt backbone, etc. everything takes a backseat to the hops. So, like others have said:

-Mash lower, 65-67 C to ensure good attenuation. The drier the beer, the more the hops will come through.
-More Hops!
-Simplify your malt bill. The best American IPAs IMO are 85+% base malt. Can you get a continental pilsner malt? That might work a bit better than MO.
-Try a batch with distilled water, or dilute Dublin water down a bit. I have no experience with 5.2 stabilizer and I know many people use it successfully, but I have to think that with all those minerals in there, your resultant beer will be salty in some way, that again might detract from the hops.

Good luck!

 

[Houblon]

Its your water and/or fermentation temps.
You need to know whats in your water, get it tested .

The grainbill is ok but drop the cara-pils, I use MO for all APA/IPA and it works fine, using Pilsner is something my dutch HB friends use- not a big fan of it.

 

[MikeRoBrew1]

Spiny posted a link to Dublins water profile:

Dublin
Location:
Ireland
What it does :
Dublin water is well suited to making Porters, Stouts, and Scottish and Irish Ales.
What it is:
This water profile has high total alkalinity and has moderately high permanent hardness. It has moderate levels of sulfates and low levels of other ions. Representative ion levels for this profile are shown below.
Vital Statistics
Calcium (ppm):
120
Sulfates (ppm):
54
Magnesium (ppm):
4
Sodium (ppm):
12
Chloride (ppm):
19
Carbonates (ppm):
319
How it works:
For brewing purposes, the ion profile of the water is important for four main reasons:
Mash pH - The six main ions affect the mash pH, which in turn contributes to enzyme effectiveness in converting the malt’s starches into maltose. Darker malts, and lighter Vienna and Munich malts, require greater temporary hardness for successful conversion. The reverse is true for light malts.
Beer Flavor - These ions are generally not present in sufficient amounts to affect flavor, unless there is contamination.
Hop Utilization – High water alkalinity can contribute to highly alkaline wort (pH above 5.7), which can exaggerate hop bitterness. Hop dosage may need to be reduced compared to that used with softer water.
Yeast Nutrients – There is usually sufficient magnesium present to feed the yeast.
Treating your base water is largely needed only for all-grain brewing, since malt extract manufacturers account for the necessary water chemistry in making the extract for you. However, a large percentage of specialty grains in an extract brew may make water treatment necessary.
Dosage:
To imitate the Dublin water profile, we recommend that you begin with distilled water. Then, consider adding gypsum, Epsom salts, baking soda, baking soda, calcium chloride, and chalk. Put these additives in the mash, not the plain base water, or some may not dissolve. Monitor the pH of the mash during these additions to ensure that it remains between 5 to 5.5, which is optimal for desired enzyme activity.
Preparation:
To imitate the Dublin water profile, we recommend that you begin with distilled water. Then, consider adding gypsum, Epsom salts, baking soda, calcium chloride, and chalk. Put these additives in the mash, not the plain base water, or some may not dissolve. Monitor the pH of the mash during these additions to ensure that it remains between 5 to 5.5, which is optimal for desired enzyme activity.

 

[MikeRoBrew1]

I found this thread useful, but I use pelletized hops. Would anyone mine reminding me of the approximate conversion? I'm pretty sure I wouldnt use 3oz of pelletized hopes during flameout, would I? That seems like a lot more than the IPA I just made from a LHBS kit.

 

[spiny_norman]

I'm pretty sure I wouldnt use 3oz of pelletized hopes during flameout, would I? That seems like a lot more than the IPA I just made from a LHBS kit.

My Imperial IPA recipe (1.072 / 8%, hop schedule based on Pliny) has exactly 3oz pellet hops at flame-out. (And another 4oz dry hop.)

 

[Wayne1]

65*C mash
92% MO
4% Crystal
4% Carapils

30g Centennial leaf 11.9 AA @ 60min
30g Centennial leaf 11.9 AA @ 15min
30g Centennial leaf 11.9 AA @ 5min
30g Centennial leaf 11.9 AA @ 1min
50g Centennial Dry hopping 5-7 days

Safale US-05 yeast.
OG:1.060
FG:1.012

Graeme,

I have made this recipe myself a few times. The BIG problem I see is your high mash temp, as others have pointed out. Try it again mashing at 65-66C.

If you just have MO to use you can drop the Vienna and make up the difference with MO as shown in the recipe above.

I also modified the hop profile slightly. This should work for you. Please get back to all of us if the lower mash temps do work. I think all of us have LOTS of IPA recipes to share.

 

[Graeme]

Guys,

First and foremost, thanks allot for the detailed and informative replies. I didn't expect to get so many, it's all very helpful. I think the general consenus is that I was mashing to high and that's something I will definitely be aware of next time I take a crack at an IPA. Not sure my fermentation temps are an issue. I usually ferment in my closet which is cool enough, obviously in the summer it gets a little higher, but I really don't think it ever exceeds 18*C. I am going to have a full read of the previous posts re Dublin water profile and look to resolving any issue there. The bottled water experiment is another idea, I used to use bottled water with my extract brews but switched to tap water when I went all grain. Its a learning curve I guess and I'll keep at it until I find that balance. Thanks again everyone

 

[danlad]

The thing I've found is that if your tap supply comes off a reservoir it isn't going to be the 'usual' water profile.

Palmer for example has Edinburgh and Dublin water descriptions, but mine in Edinburgh is soft as sh!te cos it comes off the reservoir in the hills not the ground water that a brewery well would use.

Unsurprisingly I also have problems getting full hop flavours. Mellow, soft bitterness and a pleasant subtle herbiness yes, but not that in your face hop twang.

Mind you, I tend to be zen and work with it and enjoy what I get

 

[Graeme]

Sounds like you share my problems Danlad, the one's I've brewed have been enjoyable, and certainly perfectly drinkable, I'd just love to recreate the American style IPA I'm so fond of.

 

[danlad]

Maybe some of the Dublin supply is the same ie off the modern reservoirs, not the Guinness type source.

On the plus side it'd mean if water treatment was your thing you'd be starting from a fairly mineral free source and could do the sums to get a harder water in your mash.

I find say 60-100g or a couple of oz of black malt (in a 25l batch) helps a lot, so am figuring I'm accidentally improving the mash pH through practical experiments.

But as I say, I live with it and am resigned to only ever making mellower beers that everyone likes

 

[ghpeel]

+1 on brewing with bottled water. Do half reverse osmosis water and half "spring" or "drinking" water as a base. Don't start messing about with salts until you really know what you are doing (I myself know enough to know that I don't know much).

Don't forget, ambient temperature is NOT a good indicator of fermentation temps. Inside your carboy can reach 10 degree (Celsius) higher than ambient. Try keeping the carboy half submerged in a water bath with ice packs around it during the first few days of fermentation when ester production occurs.

 

[gt123]

65*C mash
92% MO
4% Crystal
4% Carapils

30g Centennial leaf 11.9 AA @ 60min
30g Centennial leaf 11.9 AA @ 15min
30g Centennial leaf 11.9 AA @ 5min
30g Centennial leaf 11.9 AA @ 1min
50g Centennial Dry hopping 5-7 days

Safale US-05 yeast.
OG:1.060
FG:1.012

Before I started messing with bottled water or getting all wrapped up in PH. I would simply adjust your recipe. The above recipe is a good start. I brew mostly IPA's and Pale Ales and I have always found that M.O produces a maltier beer over standard US 2 row.

 

[stevedasleeve]

I really think simply mashing at a reasonable temperature is all that needs to be done for now. Seriously your mash temp was so high as to make all other variables quite irrelevant IMHO. Fix *that* then tweak from there. Reasonable mash temps are 65-69, I would go 66 myself (and I make kick ass IPAs BTW!)

Again IMHO and YMMV and WTF,
Steve da sleeve