IPAs, APAs, & bottling

[AZBeer]

I am at a bit of a crossroads, and would love some input. I haven't brewed in about 9 mos. Since my wife was 4ish mos pregnant with our first. My beer was coming out good for the most part, but I was running into 2 issues.

1. No carb.
2. An off flavor from all of my clean, hoppy beers.

The off flavor is a sweetness. Hop flavor and armona is muted. Beer taste great going into the bottles, but quickly deteriorate.

Could the 2 be related?

I know the normal answer is to keg. But I am not really looking to lay out that kind of cash right now.

Any tips to improve the longevity of bottled beers?

I brew and drink lots of styles, but IPAs and Pales are kinda my go to. I am also not drinking as much with a 4 month old running around.

I picked up a new capper, and am going to brew a simple Westcoast IPA soon to see if a bad capper is the culprit on the carb issue. Also going to test out a short and shoddy brew day.

Process for context...

2.5-3gal BIAB. Mash and boil in SSBrewtech 5.5g kettle. Ferment in a SS fermentor. Have stopped taking gravity readings until packaging. Typically ferment for 4-5 days, then dry hop for 5 days (usually pellets in a bag), then crash and fine with gelatin over a couple of days. I have used both domino sugar cubes, or corn sugar in a bottling bucket (I usually transfer back to my kettle) with the same result. I condition them for 3 weeks at room temp (usually low to mid 70s).

At this point, a 2.5g batch will probably last me 2-3 months (seriously), so if they don't taste good after that amount of time...not sure if I will continue to brew.

I know I am kinda rambling in this post, just trying to see if there is any process things I can look at to improve things.

 

[grampamark]

When you say "no carb" do mean none at all? Is every bottle flat? Or do you mean insufficiently carbed?

Describing a flavor as "sweet" can cover a wide range of things. Sweet as in fruity or as in a spoonful of sugar or as in...what, exactly?

A little more detail might be helpful.

 

[deadwolfbones]

I would imagine the "sweetness" you're getting in your hoppy beers is related to oxidation. With hoppy beers you really want to limit oxygen exposure as much as possible throughout the whole process.

What I would recommend as an experiment is to ferment in a bucket with a spigot and bottle directly from primary. Try to open the bucket as little as possible. Use sugar cubes for priming if you like, or a funnel and table sugar. (I do this and use the NB priming calculator to figure out how many tsp for 12, 16.9, and 22oz bottles.) Even with these precautions you may end up with oxidized hoppy beers; bottling a hazy IPA, for instance, almost never works out without resorting to extreme measures.

 

[AZBeer]

When you say "no carb" do mean none at all? Is every bottle flat? Or do you mean insufficiently carbed?

Describing a flavor as "sweet" can cover a wide range of things. Sweet as in fruity or as in a spoonful of sugar or as in...what, exactly?

A little more detail might be helpful.

No carb meaning a very slight hiss when opened, no head, no real carbonation in the beer.

Sweetness is sweetness. Will have to get back to you on more details. It's been since last summer since I drank one....

 

[AZBeer]

I would imagine the "sweetness" you're getting in your hoppy beers is related to oxidation. With hoppy beers you really want to limit oxygen exposure as much as possible throughout the whole process.

What I would recommend as an experiment is to ferment in a bucket with a spigot and bottle directly from primary. Try to open the bucket as little as possible. Use sugar cubes for priming if you like, or a funnel and table sugar. (I do this and use the NB priming calculator to figure out how many tsp for 12, 16.9, and 22oz bottles.) Even with these precautions you may end up with oxidized hoppy beers; bottling a hazy IPA, for instance, almost never works out without resorting to extreme measures.

I was wondering about oxidation and wondering if anything can be done about it. Fermentor has a spigot, so I can bottle straight from there. Didn't in the past because I was bottling with corn sugar at the point, and wasn't sure if I would run into a problem with excessive trub.

 

[Konadog]

Is it possible that the two issues are related, meaning that maybe you don't have enough yeast left over, or your storing your bottles to cold after packaging, to eat up the sugar, leaving you with sweet, somewhat flat beer?

 

[BrewInspector]

What is your mash?

May be mashing at a higher temp which may produce a less fermentable wort lending to the residual sweetness.

What Temp are you carbing the bottles at?

If it is too cool it takes longer and may not carb even in three weeks. They need to be in the 70s. I would doubt you are removing all the yeast but cold crash and fining are clearing the beer but removing a of it. This too may increase the overall time to carbonate.

 

[AZBeer]

Is it possible that the two issues are related, meaning that maybe you don't have enough yeast left over, or your storing your bottles to cold after packaging, to eat up the sugar, leaving you with sweet, somewhat flat beer?

I usually store the bottles in the low to mid 70s.

What is your mash?

May be mashing at a higher temp which may produce a less fermentable wort lending to the residual sweetness.

What Temp are you carbing the bottles at?

If it is too cool it takes longer and may not carb even in three weeks. They need to be in the 70s. I would doubt you are removing all the yeast but cold crash and fining are clearing the beer but removing a of it. This too may increase the overall time to carbonate.

Mash is usually 150ish.

Something I just thought of, I have been mashing for 70 minutes, and I would mash in, then leave it (usually to take a nap TBH). Wouldn't stir, and the temp would drop...usually only 1 or 2 degrees. Wonder if that could be impacting things? Efficiency was down a little, but I had been missing on the boil off, so I assumed that was the cause.

As far as the carbing, bottles are stored in the 70s. I have a RIS that is doing the same, bottled in December with cask yeast...that's why I was kinda thinking it's a capper issue.

 

[Andrew7447]

Its is so hard to bottle a hoppy beer. I bottle from my ss bucket and blow co2 into my bottles. Still I get oxidation alot.

 

[madscientist451]

What's your bottle sanitation method?

 

[AZBeer]

What's your bottle sanitation method?

I rinse bottles as soon as I pour one. Then I clean batches with PBW. On bottling day I spray them with starsan from a spray bottle and dump them. Usually 4 or 5 spritzes then swirl the sanitizer around for a few and dump.

 

[BrewInspector]

Mash is usually 150ish.

Something I just thought of, I have been mashing for 70 minutes, and I would mash in, then leave it (usually to take a nap TBH). Wouldn't stir, and the temp would drop...usually only 1 or 2 degrees. Wonder if that could be impacting things? Efficiency was down a little, but I had been missing on the boil off, so I assumed that was the cause.

...that's why I was kinda thinking it's a capper issue.

Perfectly normal mash temp and drop with a good range for highly fermentable sugar. The extra time hurts nothing and should improve extraction. A couple degree drop would be excellent heat retention.

If the bottles are properly primed and at a low 70s temp for 3 weeks they should have more carbonation than you describe. My suspicion is that there is little yeast available for carbonation due to the cold crash and fining.
1) Give them more time and warmth. With less yeast it takes longer
2)You could try not fining. Just cold crashing a batch and see if that helps.
3)Add a bit of yeast at bottling for a batch cold crashed and fined.

My choice would be to give it more time and not fining on the next batch.

 

[AZBeer]

Perfectly normal mash temp and drop with a good range for highly fermentable sugar. The extra time hurts nothing and should improve extraction. A couple degree drop would be excellent heat retention.

If the bottles are properly primed and at a low 70s temp for 3 weeks they should have more carbonation than you describe. My suspicion is that there is little yeast available for carbonation due to the cold crash and fining.
1) Give them more time and warmth. With less yeast it takes longer
2)You could try not fining. Just cold crashing a batch and see if that helps.
3)Add a bit of yeast at bottling for a batch cold crashed and fined.

My choice would be to give it more time and not fining on the next batch.

I was thinking of skipping the crash and the fining on this batch, although I am pretty sure I have done that with a smash and got similar results...I would have to go back and look at my notes though.

The thing that makes me think it is a capping issue is the RIS I brewed. Bottled in December with CBC-1 cask yeast, cracked one yesterday and had a similar result.

 

[Miraculix]

I was thinking of skipping the crash and the fining on this batch, although I am pretty sure I have done that with a smash and got similar results...I would have to go back and look at my notes though.

The thing that makes me think it is a capping issue is the RIS I brewed. Bottled in December with CBC-1 cask yeast, cracked one yesterday and had a similar result.

It's the capper.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

I believe it is possible to bottle- condition even hoppy beers successfully. The key for me is to keep the yeast active and happy, so it can scavenge the maximum amount of O2 while and after racking/bottling. I started the practice of adding a little bit of sugar together with the dry hops, so yeast will hopefully scavenge o2 also at that stage. As an added benefit, the yeast still in suspension will be active again and ready to go by the time you bottle a few days later. I don't cold crash for this reason also. I then usually get fully carbonated beer in less than a week in the 70s. Of course the drawback being somewhat more sediment in the bottle. But if I have to choose between oxidized beer and yeast sediment, I'll definitely choose the latter.

 

[madscientist451]

I rinse bottles as soon as I pour one. Then I clean batches with PBW. On bottling day I spray them with starsan from a spray bottle and dump them. Usually 4 or 5 spritzes then swirl the sanitizer around for a few and dump.

Everyone has their own way of doing things, but I believe a better method is to submerge the bottles in a bucket of starsan, dump out the starsan right before you fill.
Also, bottles need to be individually inspected by holding them up to a strong light and looking through the opening, you'd be surprised how "unclean" bottles can get over time.
You'd probably be better off getting some used kegs and an old refrigerator and skip bottling your IPAs. You don't need to build a kegerator with taps, just use a picnic tap.

 

[AZBeer]

I believe it is possible to bottle- condition even hoppy beers successfully. The key for me is to keep the yeast active and happy, so it can scavenge the maximum amount of O2 while and after racking/bottling. I started the practice of adding a little bit of sugar together with the dry hops, so yeast will hopefully scavenge o2 also at that stage. As an added benefit, the yeast still in suspension will be active again and ready to go by the time you bottle a few days later. I don't cold crash for this reason also. I then usually get fully carbonated beer in less than a week in the 70s. Of course the drawback being somewhat more sediment in the bottle. But if I have to choose between oxidized beer and yeast sediment, I'll definitely choose the latter.

Interesting. How much sugar is a little bit? Do you just add it straight in? Or do you dissolve it in some water and boil the water?

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

I used about 30 grams for 25 - 27 liters beer. First dissolved and boiled shortly in a little bit of water.
Of course I cannot say for sure it has a positive impact, but there was definitely a little bit of fermentation activity going on again.
But then again, also hops seem to bring along an even so slight amount of sugars on their own...and also enzymes that may break down some of the unfermentables in the beer (dry hop creep)

 

[Dgallo]

Your beer is oxidizing as stated by many above. The sweetness you taste is probably a cider-like sweetness which is cause by acetaldehyde. It’s created multiple ways but since your bottling straight from the spout, in your case it’s from the oxidaztion of alcohol. Hop and grain flavors oxidize first so if your also oxidizing alcohol that means you are allowing for substantial disolved oxygen to make its way into your beers. You need to tighten up and improve your post fermentation procedures to minimize oxygen contact on all beers, especially hoppy beers. If going to continue to bottle then at the very least you need to invest in a bottling wand. Theyre cheap and a much better option than directly from the spout

 

[AZBeer]

Your beer is oxidizing as stated by many above. The sweetness you taste is probably a cider-like sweetness which is cause by acetaldehyde. It’s created multiple ways but since your bottling straight from the spout, in your case it’s from the oxidaztion of alcohol. Hop and grain flavors oxidize first so if your also oxidizing alcohol that means you are allowing for substantial disolved oxygen to make its way into your beers. You need to tighten up and improve your post fermentation procedures to minimize oxygen contact on all beers, especially hoppy beers. If going to continue to bottle then at the very least you need to invest in a bottling wand. Theyre cheap and a much better option than directly from the spout

I am using a bottling wand.

 

[Dgallo]

I am using a bottling wand.

Well that’s a good start. I was basing that suggestion off what you said here.

I was wondering about oxidation and wondering if anything can be done about it. Fermentor has a spigot, so I can bottle straight from there. Didn't in the past because I was bottling with corn sugar at the point, and wasn't sure if I would run into a problem with excessive trub.

Are you capping every bottle immediately or Letting them sit til the end? Are your bottles warm at the time of bottling. How many transfers are taking place from end of fermentation to bottles? All cause oxidation.

For the carb not setting after 3 weeks is strange. You should have plenty of yeast in suspension. Maybe the capper isnt sealing properly. As long as you added sugar it should have carbed after 21 days warm

 

[AZBeer]

Well that’s a good start. I was basing that suggestion off what you said here.

Are you capping every bottle immediately or Letting them sit til the end? Are your bottles warm at the time of bottling. How many transfers are taking place from end of fermentation to bottles? All cause oxidation.

For the carb not setting after 3 weeks is strange. You should have plenty of yeast in suspension. Maybe the capper isnt sealing properly. As long as you added sugar it should have carbed after 21 days warm

Understood. That was a suggestion from someone to bottle directly from fermentor. Either way, I would use a wand.

Only 1 transfer, from fermentor to bottling bucket. Which it would be interesting to bottle directly from the fermentor.

I have been filling all my bottles then capping at the end. I definitely try capping as I go.

I have considered adding a port to my fermentor so I can pressurize with CO2 cartridges...if that would be worth it. Have seen someone on HBT that had done it on the Anvil fermentor I have.

Outside of that, thinking through my process...chilling my wort is probably the biggest exposure to O2 that I can think of.

I legitimately think the carb issue is a bad capper, so hopefully that will get cleared up this batch.

 

[Andrew7447]

Hate to say it, but years ago I moved on to PET bottles and never looked back.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Its is so hard to bottle a hoppy beer. I bottle from my ss bucket and blow co2 into my bottles. Still I get oxidation alot.

Are you also purging the bottle headspace with CO2 after filling , or are you just flushing the bottles with CO2 before filling?
At least for my process, which I described above, I found out that the air remaining in the bottle headspace was the single major culprit causing oxidation to my hoppy beers. Purging the headspace made a very noticeable difference.
In contrast, purging the bottle prior to filling did not make any difference at all.

 

[Dgallo]

Understood. That was a suggestion from someone to bottle directly from fermentor. Either way, I would use a wand.

Only 1 transfer, from fermentor to bottling bucket. Which it would be interesting to bottle directly from the fermentor.

I have been filling all my bottles then capping at the end. I definitely try capping as I go.

I have considered adding a port to my fermentor so I can pressurize with CO2 cartridges...if that would be worth it. Have seen someone on HBT that

Are you also purging the bottle headspace with CO2 after filling , or are you just flushing the bottles with CO2 before filling?
At least for my process, which I described above, I found out that the air remaining in the bottle headspace was the single major culprit causing oxidation to my hoppy beers. Purging the headspace made a very noticeable difference.
In contrast, purging the bottle prior to filling did not make any difference at all.

your process is good. But roughly how much time does it take to bottle 5 gallons?

You Besides personally feeling that since I’ve started kegging(previously bottled for 2 years) my quality improved tremendously, the time saved kegging pays for the equipment in the first 3 beers. Without using co2 to purge it would take me at least 2 1/2 hours to rinse, sterilize, fill, and cap 48-52 bottles. Then would have to wait a minimum of 7 days to take a sample. Now that I’m kegging, I rack my beer into the keg, hook up the psi and force carb for 4 minutes. Let the beer settle for 30 and now I’m drinking my beer.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

your process is good. But roughly how much time does it take to bottle 5 gallons?

You Besides personally feeling that since I’ve started kegging(previously bottled for 2 years) my quality improved tremendously, the time saved kegging pays for the equipment in the first 3 beers. Without using co2 to purge it would take me at least 2 1/2 hours to rinse, sterilize, fill, and cap 48-52 bottles. Then would have to wait a minimum of 7 days to take a sample. Now that I’m kegging, I rack my beer into the keg, hook up the psi and force carb for 4 minutes. Let the beer settle for 30 and now I’m drinking my beer.

I know kegging is the best thing, would love to keg also... it's just not going to happen right now. Honestly I don't care that much about the time spent bottling, as I'm currently brewing only about 4 times a year on average ( family, small kids...). One day I'll be hopefully brewing more often, then yeah I'll definitely think about kegging.
As for the process of purging headspaces, I'm doing this only for hoppy beers and it really does not take much extra time. It's like an additional second or two per bottle.

 

[Andrew7447]

Are you also purging the bottle headspace with CO2 after filling , or are you just flushing the bottles with CO2 before filling?
At least for my process, which I described above, I found out that the air remaining in the bottle headspace was the single major culprit causing oxidation to my hoppy beers. Purging the headspace made a very noticeable difference.
In contrast, purging the bottle prior to filling did not make any difference at all.

Both lol. I dont always get oxidation anymore. Just saying theres still a chance to get abit. Its a hard battle.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Both lol. I dont always get oxidation anymore. Just saying theres still a chance to get abit. Its a hard battle.

Well then I'm also most probably still getting a bit of oxidation... what is your term of comparison for saying you still get a bit of oxidation in the bottles? The same beer but kegged?
Anyway, I was quite happy with my latest hoppy beers. One even scored really well in a comp we have over here. That's why I was saying above that it is possible to bottle condition hoppy beers successfully (I know there are more than a few here on HBT who maintain it is not possible).
But there is still room for improvement, of course.
Now I'm dreaming of a kegerator in my apartment!

 

[Andrew7447]

Well then I'm also most probably still getting a bit of oxidation... what is your term of comparison for saying you still get a bit of oxidation in the bottles? The same beer but kegged?
Anyway, I was quite happy with my latest hoppy beers. One even scored really well in a comp we have over here. That's why I was saying above that it is possible to bottle condition hoppy beers successfully (I know there are more than a few here on HBT who maintain it is not possible).
But there is still room for improvement, of course.
Now I'm dreaming of a kegerator in my apartment!

Yea my buddy is lucky enough to be kegging. We share recipes. Theres is no chance I can fully replicate his closed loop to keg. When I bottle. Mine is always more or less a shade darker and a hint of a different flavor. Depending on how well I do. Im still happy with my beer, but the moment life gives me the opportunity to close transfer to kegs I'm taking it lol.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Yea my buddy is lucky enough to be kegging. We share recipes. Theres is no chance I can fully replicate his closed loop to keg. When I bottle. Mine is always more or less a shade darker and a hint of a different flavor. Depending on how well I do. Im still happy with my beer, but the moment life gives me the opportunity to close transfer to kegs I'm taking it lol.

Ok thanks for the info! I'm taking it too, hopefully sooner than later!

 

[kh54s10]

I haven't heard oxidized being described as "sweet". It should be a taste like wet cardboard, though I don't know how people know that. I don't think I have ever tasted wet cardboard.

I also wonder how people are oxidizing their beers so badly.

I autosiphon from the fermenter to a bottling bucket. I then bottle without purging at any point. Same with kegging. My IPAs could probably be better but I wouldn't call them oxidized in a way people say WILL happen. I get no distinct off flavors. I get no degradation over time. The last IPA was cold crashed, blow off tube still attached (not enough Starsan to get sucked back) transferred to a bottling bucket and filled bottles all had caps set on top then all crimped at the end. No oxidation and no degradation. Also probably my best IPA to date.

BTW my brother who drinks mostly commercial (at least until I moved close by) liked it so much, it is the first beer in 106 batches that I am going to attempt to brew exactly the same again.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

I haven't heard oxidized being described as "sweet". It should be a taste like wet cardboard, though I don't know how people know that. I don't think I have ever tasted wet cardboard.

I also wonder how people are oxidizing their beers so badly.

I autosiphon from the fermenter to a bottling bucket. I then bottle without purging at any point. Same with kegging. My IPAs could probably be better but I wouldn't call them oxidized in a way people say WILL happen. I get no distinct off flavors. I get no degradation over time. The last IPA was cold crashed, blow off tube still attached (not enough Starsan to get sucked back) transferred to a bottling bucket and filled bottles all had caps set on top then all crimped at the end. No oxidation and no degradation. Also probably my best IPA to date.

BTW my brother who drinks mostly commercial (at least until I moved close by) liked it so much, it is the first beer in 106 batches that I am going to attempt to brew exactly the same again.

Well from what I read it does not need to get to the extreme of "wet cardboard" off flavour to start noticing oxidation effects in hoppy beers. It results in darkening of colour and some loss of bright hop aromas/flavors. In some cases it could also taste sweeter/maltier than it should. Thats what I noticed in a direct comparison of headspace purged vs non purged bottles. I felt also the non purged bottles weren't a bad hoppy beer, by any means. But in a direct comparison the purged ones won.
The colour difference was striking. So alone for this it can be worth taking extra measures if one is going for a light, bright colour.
The taste difference was there but it definitely wad more subtle.

 

[kh54s10]

Well from what I read it does not need to get to the extreme of "wet cardboard" off flavour to start noticing oxidation effects in hoppy beers. It results in darkening of colour and some loss of bright hop aromas/flavors. In some cases it could also taste sweeter/maltier than it should. Thats what I noticed in a direct comparison of headspace purged vs non purged bottles. I felt also the non purged bottles weren't a bad hoppy beer, by any means. But in a direct comparison the purged ones won.

Probably I am getting some oxidation. But it is said that the beer will get darker with age and the off flavor will increase over time. That has never happened with any of my 106 batches.....

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Probably I am getting some oxidation. But it is said that the beer will get darker with age and the off flavor will increase over time. That has never happened with any of my 106 batches.....

Yes, but IME in heavily dry hopped beers the darkening effect appears fairly quickly, and it only gets worse with age. NEIPA seems to be extreme with respect to this phenomenon (but I have yet to brew a true NEIPA so I can't talk from my own experience here).

 

[kh54s10]

Yes, but IME in heavily dry hopped beers the darkening effect appears fairly quickly, and it only gets worse with age. NEIPA seems to be extreme with respect to this phenomenon (but I have yet to brew a true NEIPA so I can't talk from my own experience here).

I haven't tried a NEIPA yet.. Not on the horizon since I have not bought a commercial one that I have liked.... But, it has not been my experience that any of my heavily hopped beers darken at all with age. They may have been slightly darker at the time of packaging. They did not get darker.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

I haven't tried a NEIPA yet.. Not on the horizon since I have not bought a commercial one that I have liked.... But, it has not been my experience that any of my heavily hopped beers darken at all with age. They may have been slightly darker at the time of packaging. They did not get darker.

Yeah the thing about darkening with age reflects more what I read than my own experience as well. In that small experiment I mention, I did several replicates and sampled them side by side at different intervals. From 4 weeks post bottling to about 4 months post bottling. The differences between purged/ unpurged variants did not become more severe with time, actually.
My guess is that for this to happen the beer must be more severely oxidized in the first place. Luckily it seems we are able to avoid that

 

[AZBeer]

I know kegging is the best thing, would love to keg also... it's just not going to happen right now. Honestly I don't care that much about the time spent bottling, as I'm currently brewing only about 4 times a year on average ( family, small kids...). One day I'll be hopefully brewing more often, then yeah I'll definitely think about kegging.
As for the process of purging headspaces, I'm doing this only for hoppy beers and it really does not take much extra time. It's like an additional second or two per bottle.

Out of curiosity, how are you purging your bottles?

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Out of curiosity, how are you purging your bottles?

I used "private preserve" gas mixture. The one used by wine pros to protect opened wine bottles from oxidation.
The can comes with a thin straw. I use flip top bottles. I lift the cap just a bit to let the straw in, blow some gas and then seal the cap immediately.
I know it is quite pricey for what it is, but since I am using it only to purge the headspace ( and only for hoppy beers), it is a viable alternative for me at the moment. You really do not need much gas to purge the headspaces.

 

[Miraculix]

Hate to say it, but years ago I moved on to PET bottles and never looked back.

I buy the cheapest sparkling water that comes in plastic bottles, empty them, use the water for brewing and the bottles for beer. No need to sanitise the bottles as they are already clean and a 4g sugar cube fits into the opening of the bottle for easy carbonation. Works for me!

 

[kh54s10]

I used "private preserve" gas mixture. The one used by wine pros to protect opened wine bottles from oxidation.
The can comes with a thin straw. I use flip top bottles. I lift the cap just a bit to let the straw in, blow some gas and then seal the cap immediately.
I know it is quite pricey for what it is, but since I am using it only to purge the headspace ( and only for hoppy beers), it is a viable alternative for me at the moment. You really do not need much gas to purge the headspaces.

Are you using priming sugar or filling from a keg? If priming does that work? I think the yeast need that little oxygen in the headspace to ferment the priming sugar and produce co2. You could be doing more harm than good by purging the headspace in the bottles.