IPA and Yeast

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m00ps said:
Yeah, I know. Just trolling. Hope you guys come to a gentlemans agreement
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I'm fine.

Just trying to get others to see another point of view that's a little different than some of the modern day yeast manufacturers.
 
brewprint said:
Here's a couple of links where I have come to my conclusions...so that there is an understanding that I'm not making emotional responses.

http://www.yeastcalculator.com/

When we pull up the above calculator there are multiple methods that we can choose from the drop down menus. They are based on the aforementioned people who have wrote "The book on yeast" and other various blogs, etc.

Which drop down menu is right? What method is correct? Hmmm

http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2013/03/25/stir-speed-and-yeast-growth/

An excellent blog written by Kai. It looks like now I need to get a better stir plate!

Where does it stop? Who is right? What is really happening with the yeast? Am I doing unnecessary steps to make my homebrew?
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So to sum it all up there is no right or wrong answer, BUT there are good practices to follow to produce a better beer. There is no one saying that pitching to little yeast can make a bad beer, but you do risk straining your yeast causing a lower attenuation rates which can lead to "off" flavors in your beer (i.e. too much sweetness in an IPA). Using yeast tools is a good place to start as they are backed by science (I read it....in a book) to give you the optimum number of yeast cells to pitch that will mitigate any potential fermentation issues with yeast dropping out too soon or creating off flavor profiles.
 
rwing7486 said:
So to sum it all up there is no right or wrong answer, BUT there are good practices to follow to produce a better beer. There is no one saying that pitching to little yeast can make a bad beer, but you do risk straining your yeast causing a lower attenuation rates which can lead to "off" flavors in your beer (i.e. too much sweetness in an IPA). Using yeast tools is a good place to start as they are backed by science (I read it....in a book) to give you the optimum number of yeast cells to pitch that will mitigate any potential fermentation issues with yeast dropping out too soon or creating off flavor profiles.
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I see where you're coming from...I really do. I'm just going to have to disagree with you.

My personal experience over the last year is that I 'under pitch.' Especially IPAs because that's about all I drink. I've pitched the correct amounts according to a random calculator and I've under pitched. I haven't noticed any difference in flavor whatsoever.

What I have noticed is that the fermentation starts harder and faster with more yeast. Therefore reducing the chance of contamination.

Off flavors? I just do not buy that. Yeast is yeast and the yeast will reproduce itself according to how much sugar is available.
 
brewprint said:
I 'under pitch.' Especially IPAs because that's about all I drink. I haven't noticed any difference in flavor whatsoever.
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Really?

In the higher-ABV, super-bitter, super-hoppy beers you brew and drink exclusively, you haven't detected any hints of potential off-flavours?

Is it remotely possible that those off-flavours are there, they're just being masked by the wildly strong flavours inherent in IPAs?

I challenge you to brew a clean American Lager. Underpitch, and tell me if you still can't detect any off-flavours.

brewprint said:
Off flavors? I just do not buy that.
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You don't have to "buy it." It's fact. People much smarter than you and I, with access to well-equipped laboratories, have studied the issue extensively and come to clear conclusions. Beer is a multi-billion dollar business, and with so much money at stake, incredible resources have been invested studying and fully understanding yeast.

When stressed, yeast produce off-flavours. That's simply a fact. It's not open for debate.

brewprint said:
Yeast is yeast and the yeast will reproduce itself according to how much sugar is available.
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I'm not going to bang my head against the wall. If you're really interested in learning the science behind yeast metabolism, reproduction, off-flavours, optimal pitch rates, starters, and all that stuff, then read the book "Yeast." If you don't really care, and are perfectly happy with your super-bitter, super-hoppy, higher-ABV beers that are masking most off-flavours anyway, then brew on. But don't be telling people that it doesn't matter how much yeast they pitch, it'll all taste the same no matter what. Because that's provably, factually wrong. I'm fine with you wanting to remain ignorant - I just have a problem with you spreading it.
 
brewprint said:
I see where you're coming from...I really do. I'm just going to have to disagree with you.

My personal experience over the last year is that I 'under pitch.' Especially IPAs because that's about all I drink. I've pitched the correct amounts according to a random calculator and I've under pitched. I haven't noticed any difference in flavor whatsoever.

What I have noticed is that the fermentation starts harder and faster with more yeast. Therefore reducing the chance of contamination.

Off flavors? I just do not buy that. Yeast is yeast and the yeast will reproduce itself according to how much sugar is available.
Click to expand...

I use to be like that too, until one of my IPA fell victim to low attenuation from pitching 1 packets of us05 into 1.070 wort (like 65% attenuation if I can remember correctly).I don't believe the under pitching was the real issue BUT it did contribute to it as I am guessing my packet could have been older and less viable yeast cells to begin with so under pitching hurt me even more. Even these companies have deviations in their process and quality concerns every now and then. I just prefer to pitch the suggested amount to try and mitigate low attenuation rates as much as possible. For example I am brewing a black IPA for this years national hombrew comp and mr malty suggest 1.2 packets of yeast/ Normally I would pitch 1 packet and call it a day, but since I want to make sure I hit my FG I plan to buy an extra packet and pitch the recommended amount.
 
In my opinion, if someone gets a good result that they are happy with, they have not under-pitched, regardless of what the calculator says.

When you do a load of laundry, you are guaranteed to get good results if you fill the cup all the way to the recommended line. However, you can usually get the same results by fulling it about 1/3 or even less. In my opinion, you are "over pitching" if you follow the directions.
 
Aristotelian said:
In my opinion, if someone gets a good result that they are happy with, they have not under-pitched, regardless of what the calculator says.

When you do a load of laundry, you are guaranteed to get good results if you fill the cup all the way to the recommended line. However, you can usually get the same results by fulling it about 1/3 or even less. In my opinion, you are "over pitching" if you follow the directions.
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That's because the manufacturer wants you to exhaust their product more quickly for you run out and buy more sooner
 
Aristotelian said:
In my opinion, if someone gets a good result that they are happy with, they have not under-pitched, regardless of what the calculator says.

When you do a load of laundry, you are guaranteed to get good results if you fill the cup all the way to the recommended line. However, you can usually get the same results by fulling it about 1/3 or even less. In my opinion, you are "over pitching" if you follow the directions.
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Your laundry example doesn't really fit here. That is an example where the instructions aren't really based on what will produce the best results. In fact, most technicians will tell you that filling the cup to the "recommended" line is a good way of harming your washing machine. The instructions are based on what is best for the company selling the detergent (to make more money); not what is best for you.

The yeast issue is completely different. If one pitches too little yeast, based on guidelines that are backed by hard science, they have by definition under pitched regardless of whether they like are happy with the taste of the beer.
 
kombat said:
Really?

In the higher-ABV, super-bitter, super-hoppy beers you brew and drink exclusively, you haven't detected any hints of potential off-flavours?

Is it remotely possible that those off-flavours are there, they're just being masked by the wildly strong flavours inherent in IPAs?

I challenge you to brew a clean American Lager. Underpitch, and tell me if you still can't detect any off-flavours.



You don't have to "buy it." It's fact. People much smarter than you and I, with access to well-equipped laboratories, have studied the issue extensively and come to clear conclusions. Beer is a multi-billion dollar business, and with so much money at stake, incredible resources have been invested studying and fully understanding yeast.

When stressed, yeast produce off-flavours. That's simply a fact. It's not open for debate.



I'm not going to bang my head against the wall. If you're really interested in learning the science behind yeast metabolism, reproduction, off-flavours, optimal pitch rates, starters, and all that stuff, then read the book "Yeast." If you don't really care, and are perfectly happy with your super-bitter, super-hoppy, higher-ABV beers that are masking most off-flavours anyway, then brew on. But don't be telling people that it doesn't matter how much yeast they pitch, it'll all taste the same no matter what. Because that's provably, factually wrong. I'm fine with you wanting to remain ignorant - I just have a problem with you spreading it.
Click to expand...

We're talking about 5 gallons of beer here...not thousands.

So who do we believe is correct? Chris White? Kai? The other calculators?

Does the homebrewer need a high speed stir plate?

How many packs of yeast do I need for my high abv wine?

BTW I'm not ignorant. This isn't the first time we've discussed this on this forum. I KNOW what's written in those books and countless posts on this site.

I'm here to point out the myriad of views regarding yeast. You're here to point out only a small portion...most of which is from the book Yeast. Discrediting experience from anyone that doesn't agree with you. As well as making false claims that; 'must be true if we can see it or not.'
 
Nicknack said:
The yeast issue is completely different. If one pitches too little yeast, based on guidelines that are backed by hard science, they have by definition under pitched regardless of whether they like are happy with the taste of the beer.
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I agree, there may be a guideline that is objectively optimal, but I also think if someone gets good results pitching less than the guideline, that does not mean they under-pitched. There may be a wide range where you are still going to get good results. As long as you use common sense and get good results, you are pitching fine, in my opinion.

Even if the laundry detergent guideline came from a panel of independent experts, it's possible you could still get good results pitching half of the guideline.
 
brewprint said:
I see where you're coming from...I really do. I'm just going to have to disagree with you.

My personal experience over the last year is that I 'under pitch.' Especially IPAs because that's about all I drink. I've pitched the correct amounts according to a random calculator and I've under pitched. I haven't noticed any difference in flavor whatsoever.

What I have noticed is that the fermentation starts harder and faster with more yeast. Therefore reducing the chance of contamination.

Off flavors? I just do not buy that. Yeast is yeast and the yeast will reproduce itself according to how much sugar is available.
Click to expand...

After those statements we should just call it.

But this is wrong man, really. Underpitching will not prevent you from making beer, but you will stress the yeast and yes, you WILL have off-flavors. You being able to recognize those off-flavors is another subject, but they will be there.

1070, 5 gallons, the recommendation is to pitch 2 packages of US-05 previously hydrated.
 
Lpera said:
After those statements we should just call it.

But this is wrong man, really. Underpitching will not prevent you from making beer, but you will stress the yeast and yes, you WILL have off-flavors. You being able to recognize those off-flavors is another subject, but they will be there.

1070, 5 gallons, the recommendation is to pitch 2 packages of US-05 previously hydrated.
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Yep I call it. I also call your statement hocus pocus. US-05 gives no instructions to rehydrate ever.

One example of hocus pocus:

http://brulosophy.com/2015/04/20/yeast-pitch-rate-single-vial-vs-yeast-starter-exbeeriment-results/
 
I think this thread calls for another experiment. Actually, I suspect one (or several) has already been done.

What we really need is a panel of BJCP judges and a few split batches of wort where half the batch is significantly (>50%) "underpitched" (according to a consensus of respected yeast calculators) and half is "correctly" pitched. Brew several different styles, split and pitch accordingly and ferment under identical conditions. Then have a blind test by the BJCP judges and see if they can tell the difference.

I am most certainly NOT a BJCP judge. I have had judges (sometimes several) comment on flavors in my brew that, for the life of me, I couldn't detect even when I knew what I was looking for. All this means is that I may have underpitched (or overpitched) and thought it was fine when there were flavors there that I couldn't detect. (Of course, it may have been something entirely unrelated.)

Maybe someone can put their fingers on such a study already done. If not, this sounds like a great opportunity for Kai or one of the other respected brewers here to gather a team of BJCP judges and brewers and give it a try.

Frankly, I'd like to know myself. I do want to make the best beer I can. Should I be scrupulous about pitching what the calculators tell me to pitch or am I just throwing money away? Let's find out.
 
That right there is the only true way that this argument is going to be won by either side. Ultimately beer is flavor.
 
I apologize about that. I received my instructions here:

Safale-US-05-Dry-Ale-Yeast-11.5g-2014-001-924x784.jpg
 
Lpera said:
After those statements we should just call it.

But this is wrong man, really. Underpitching will not prevent you from making beer, but you will stress the yeast and yes, you WILL have off-flavors. You being able to recognize those off-flavors is another subject, but they will be there.

1070, 5 gallons, the recommendation is to pitch 2 packages of US-05 previously hydrated.
Click to expand...

Isn't the recommendation for 1.070 (5 gallons) 1.2 11.5g yeast packets? I used Mr. Malty to get this.
 
BlueHouseBrewhaus said:
What we really need is a panel of BJCP judges and a few split batches of wort where half the batch is significantly (>50%) "underpitched" (according to a consensus of respected yeast calculators) and half is "correctly" pitched. Brew several different styles, split and pitch accordingly and ferment under identical conditions. Then have a blind test by the BJCP judges and see if they can tell the difference.
Click to expand...


brewprint said:
That right there is the only true way that this argument is going to be won by either side. Ultimately beer is flavor.
Click to expand...

Even if a panel of expert judges could tell the difference, we are talking about home-brewers here. Maybe he likes the "off" flavor. Maybe he can't taste the difference. If a brewer is satisfied with the results then he is pitching correctly. QED.
 
brewprint said:
US-05 gives no instructions to rehydrate ever.
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Dude, just ... stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

From the Fermentis website:

"Rehydration Instructions - Sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or wort at 27°C ± 3°C (80°F ± 6°F). Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes. Gently stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel."

EDIT: Heh, just noticed 2 other posters beat me to the punch. :)
 
Aristotelian said:
If a brewer is satisfied with the results then he is pitching correctly. QED.
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A person being satisfied with the flavor of the beer doesn't at all mean that he/she didn't under pitch the yeast. They under pitched the yeast if they didn't put enough in the wort. All that being satisfied means is that in this case, they don't mind their under pitched brew.
 
kombat said:
Dude, just ... stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

From the Fermentis website:

"Rehydration Instructions - Sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or wort at 27°C ± 3°C (80°F ± 6°F). Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes. Gently stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel."

EDIT: Heh, just noticed 2 other posters beat me to the punch. :)
Click to expand...

I already corrected myself...so dude just read; you're embarrassing yourself :)

Besides, I didn't feel that it was necessary to go online and get instructions since it clearly states on the package to pitch into the wort. It doesn't say to go online and get re-hydrating instructions.

Safale-US-05-Dry-Ale-Yeast-11.5g-2014-001-924x784.jpg
 
Nicknack said:
A person being satisfied with the flavor of the beer doesn't at all mean that he/she didn't under pitch the yeast. They under pitched the yeast if they didn't put enough in the wort. All that being satisfied means is that in this case, they don't mind their under pitched brew.
Click to expand...

Sorry Nicknack,

But, you are missing the point of homebrewing. Homebrewing is all about doing what you want. That is what a lot of us actually do, whatever we want. :ban:
There are plenty of valid reasons to pitch over and under whatever a calculator tells you. And the only thing that matters is what you think of the beer.

I always pitch exactly what I want. So I never under-pitch. Except for that time when I spilled yeast while pouring it into the fermenter. But, even in that case, I still made beer and the dog got to lick up a tasty mess on the floor. So I won and the dog did too.

So pitch one packet or two, hydrated or not. Pitch one package of liquid yeast or build up a starter. Wash your yeast cake or just pour new wort right on top. Make the beer that you want. I know I do. :mug:
 
tim_c7 said:
But, you are missing the point of homebrewing. Homebrewing is all about doing what you want. That is what a lot of us actually do, whatever we want.
Click to expand...

I don't think so, Tim. The point of home brewing, as you put it, is precisely why I got into the hobby and why I really enjoy it. I think you misinterpreted my post. If he likes the beer while under pitching the yeast, who cares. It doesn't matter to me at all nor should it. All that matters is the person drinking it.
 
I predict, in the time its gonna take you guys to settle this argument, I will have brewed 6 IPAs
 
Your question mirrors one of my original ones. What I learned was yes, you can re-hydrate all the yeast together and then pitch it at the same time. Since my brew has a 1.070 OG and calls for 1.2 packets of yeast (according to Mr Malty), I will probably just use one. The beer after this one that I intend to make has a 1.086 OG and calls for 1.4 packets of yeast. That being the case, I'll probably just use 1 1/2 packets.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Nicknack said:
Your question mirrors one of my original ones. What I learned was yes, you can re-hydrate all the yeast together and then pitch it at the same time. Since my brew has a 1.070 OG and calls for 1.2 packets of yeast (according to Mr Malty), I will probably just use one. The beer after this one that I intend to make has a 1.086 OG and calls for 1.4 packets of yeast. That being the case, I'll probably just use 1 1/2 packets.
Click to expand...

Uh Oh! Better not...you're just asking for off flavors!
 
I recently ordered a Brewer's Best Double IPA. The instructions state...

8. PITCH YEAST
Sprinkle the contents of the yeast sachet over top of the entire wort surface (DO NOT
REHYDRATE) and stir well with sanitized spoon or paddle. Firmly secure the lid onto the
fermenter. Fill your airlock halfway with water and gently twist the airlock into the grommeted lid. Move fermenter to a dark, warm, temperature-stable area (approx. 64º - 72ºF).

Question: I know some yeasts state that you don't "need" to re-hydrate, but why would these instructions tell you NOT to re-hydrate. Would you anyway? I just received the kit today and it comes with US-05. Other kits (from Northern Brewer) that I have don't tell me not to re-hydrate.
 
Nicknack said:
I recently ordered a Brewer's Best Double IPA. The instructions state...

8. PITCH YEAST
Sprinkle the contents of the yeast sachet over top of the entire wort surface (DO NOT
REHYDRATE) and stir well with sanitized spoon or paddle. Firmly secure the lid onto the
fermenter. Fill your airlock halfway with water and gently twist the airlock into the grommeted lid. Move fermenter to a dark, warm, temperature-stable area (approx. 64º - 72ºF).

Question: I know some yeasts state that you don't "need" to re-hydrate, but why would these instructions tell you NOT to re-hydrate. Would you anyway? I just received the kit today and it comes with US-05.
Click to expand...

Well I can already tell you the response that you'll get.

"Those are out-dated instructions."

To be honest I really don't know. Their instructions do not have the wort aerated either. I cannot imagine that those instructions are out-dated. Those kits are so popular...why change something that works so well?

RDWAHAHB and don't re-hydrate and just pitch.
 
Brewprint... I understand where you are coming from and that's fine. However, I would like to be able to have a dialogue around the reasons that I started the thread. If you want to discuss the points you made in further detail, I suggest starting a new thread rather than constantly trying to hy-jack this one. Thanks -
 
Nicknack said:
Brewprint... I understand where you are coming from and that's fine. However, I would like to be able to have a dialogue around the reasons that I started the thread. If you want to discuss the points you made in further detail, I suggest starting a new thread rather than constantly trying to hy-jack this one. Thanks -
Click to expand...

You asked a question...I tried to answer it the best that I could. SMH
 
brewprint said:
You asked a question...I tried to answer it the best that I could. SMH
Click to expand...

Haha. I thought it was a valid answer. He is probably having flashbacks to the rest of the thread.

I think the advantage of not rehydrating is it just cuts out a step where poor sanitation could cause you a problem. The disadvantage is that it may take longer to start, which could also pose an infection risk. Either way, the risk is pretty minimal so you might as well go with the easiest method and sprinkle away.
 
Yeah, but half of his thread was again, bringing up things that are not helpful such as what he thinks others will say and the fact that he doesn't know. If you don't know, maybe don't respond and allow others who do. Seems like a bit of trolling. Anyway...

As someone new to brewing, just when I start to think I'm getting my arms around some things, I get perplexed once again. So many long-term brewers have stated (and/or told me) that when brewing something with such a high OG (1.080), I should definitely re-hydrate the yeast. Not only that, but most of the threads I've read, brewers are recommending that with most brews you should re-hydrate the yeast. Even more confusing is the fact that one recipe (with the same exact OG) doesn't mention anything either way about re-hydrating the yeast and then I get another recipe kit that not only doesn't mention it but clearly instructs me against re-hydrating.

:confused:

Other thoughts?
 
rwing7486 said:
Wow I am surprised it fermented that far down - that is 91% attenuation which I have never seen before with US05. Did you have allot of Dextrose in your recipe?
Click to expand...

I had a 147-148F mashed all pale malt, OG 1.053, ferment down to 1.005 with US-05. Real Attenuation 75.4%, Apparent Attenuation 92.1%

I had never had US-05 go that low, but I've commonly had 1.007-1.010. That one was so low I verified FG with multiple instruments and checked calbrations. Gravity was stable 10 days prior to kegging, no sign of infection.

Aeration stone with pump for 1 hour, rehydrated, pitched 66F fermented 65-66F.
 
pablosbrewing said:
I had a 147-148F mashed all pale malt, OG 1.053, ferment down to 1.005 with US-05. Real Attenuation 75.4%, Apparent Attenuation 92.1%

I had never had US-05 go that low, but I've commonly had 1.007-1.010. That one was so low I verified FG with multiple instruments and checked calbrations. Gravity was stable 10 days prior to kegging, no sign of infection.

Aeration stone with pump for 1 hour, rehydrated, pitched 66F fermented 65-66F.
Click to expand...

I just ended the Two Hearted clone at 83% which is a little closer to spec. The stuff works awesome. That started at 1.063 and went down to 1.011 and fermented at 63-64F ambient. (1 pack sprinkled directly into the wort)
 

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