IPA and Yeast

[brewprint]

Yes, actually, you wildly underpitched.

"Underpitching" doesn't mean it won't ferment. Of course it will. You could sprinkle a pinch of dry yeast in there, and it will indeed eventually ferment.

"Underpitching" means based on what we know about the behaviour of yeast cells, and the assumption that you want to minimize undesirable phenols, esters, fusel alcohols, diacetyl, acetaldehyde, isoamyl acetate, and other off-flavours, there is an established formula for optimizing the profile of the resulting beer.

In your case, the optimum starting cell count for 5 gallons of 1.073 ale is 73 * 4 billion = 292 billion cells. 1 packet of dry yeast, fresh and properly rehydrated, will deliver around 200 billion cells. Pitching the yeast dry will reduce cell viability by up to 50%, meaning in the worst case scenario, you pitched 100 billion cells, or just 34% of what you should have pitched. Heck, even if you'd rehydrated and somehow achieved 100% cell viability (i.e., 200 billion cells), you still underpitched by 31.5%.

To claim you didn't underpitch, you'd have to have pitched at least 292 billion cells, and even under the best conditions, a single 11.5g packet of dry yeast cannot deliver that many cells.

Yes by your theory...and let me stress; theory, I did under pitch.

What about the other yeast calculator that says different? Or the other one that says different? Or the other one that says different?

Do you see my point?

Basing a view strictly on conjecture or what you 'think' is going to give all of the off flavors and what not that you mentioned is hardly brewing science.

So my view still stands that no under pitching is involved here.

As I stated before; "hysteria."

 

[kombat]

What about the other yeast calculator that says different? Or the other one that says different? Or the other one that says different?

My numbers are based on the Mr. Malty calculator, which was created by Jamil Zainasheff, one of the co-authors of the book "Yeast." The other author is Chris White, the founder of Whitelabs Yeast. I think they know what they're talking about.

Basing a view strictly on conjecture or what you 'think' is going to give all of the off flavors and what not that you mentioned is hardly brewing science.

That's exactly what it is. The book "Yeast" is based entirely on science.

So my view still stands that no under pitching is involved here.

Show me any yeast calculator that concludes that with your numbers, you did not underpitch. That is, show me any credible pitching rate calculator that concludes that for 5 gallons of 1.073 wort, 100 billion cells of ale yeast is an adequate pitch.

Heck, I'll even expand it to include ANY source. Please cite any research material anywhere that says 100 billion cells of ale yeast is enough for 5 gallons of 1.073 wort. You can use the yeast manufacturers' websites, any science paper, a brewing college student's thesis, BeerSmith... anything. They'll ALL prescribe well over 200 billion cells, or at least more than double what you actually pitched.

Show me ANY credible source that says you didn't underpitch. If EVERYONE says you should've pitched more yeast, then it's not just "hysteria" or an "opinion" - it's fact.

 

[brewprint]

My numbers are based on the Mr. Malty calculator, which was created by Jamil Zainasheff, one of the co-authors of the book "Yeast." The other author is Chris White, the founder of Whitelabs Yeast. I think they know what they're talking about.



That's exactly what it is. The book "Yeast" is based entirely on science.



Show me any yeast calculator that concludes that with your numbers, you did not underpitch. That is, show me any credible pitching rate calculator that concludes that for 5 gallons of 1.073 wort, 100 billion cells of ale yeast is an adequate pitch.

Heck, I'll even expand it to include ANY source. Please cite any research material anywhere that says 100 billion cells of ale yeast is enough for 5 gallons of 1.073 wort. You can use the yeast manufacturers' websites, any science paper, a brewing college student's thesis, BeerSmith... anything. They'll ALL prescribe well over 200 billion cells, or at least more than double what you actually pitched.

Show me ANY credible source that says you didn't underpitch. If EVERYONE says you should've pitched more yeast, then it's not just "hysteria" or an "opinion" - it's fact.

Dude, you said that there will be off flavors produced. PROVE it. Until that can actually be proven by someone drinking beer and not reading a book it's all smoke and mirrors.

Keep pitching your excessive starters and spending money on extra dry yeast. I'll keep 'under pitching' and enjoying my beer just as much as you.

My point is that it's overkill. Even if you say it's 'fact,' it's only fact according to SOME and not all.

 

[Nicknack]

This is probably the point where the agree to disagree thing comes into play.

 

[kombat]

Yeah, he's obviously made up his mind. I'm gonna go ahead and stick with the advice from the guys who literally wrote the book on yeast, own a massively successful yeast company, and have won hundreds of homebrew medals.

 

[rwing7486]

Yeah, he's obviously made up his mind. I'm gonna go ahead and stick with the advice from the guys who literally wrote the book on yeast, own a massively successful yeast company, and have won hundreds of homebrew medals.

*mic dropped *

 

[m00ps]

.....so how many yeast packets do i need for my 1.200 IIIPA? Is two enough? One expired in 2014....

 

[brewprint]

Here's a couple of links where I have come to my conclusions...so that there is an understanding that I'm not making emotional responses.

http://www.yeastcalculator.com/

When we pull up the above calculator there are multiple methods that we can choose from the drop down menus. They are based on the aforementioned people who have wrote "The book on yeast" and other various blogs, etc.

Which drop down menu is right? What method is correct? Hmmm

http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2013/03/25/stir-speed-and-yeast-growth/

An excellent blog written by Kai. It looks like now I need to get a better stir plate!

Where does it stop? Who is right? What is really happening with the yeast? Am I doing unnecessary steps to make my homebrew?

 

[brewprint]

.....so how many yeast packets do i need for my 1.200 IIIPA? Is two enough? One expired in 2014....

That's an extreme. Kind of like saying that I only need one pack of US-05 to make 100 gallons instead of 5 or 6. :smack:

 

[m00ps]

That's an extreme. Kind of like saying that I only need one pack of US-05 to make 100 gallons instead of 5 or 6. :smack:

Yeah, I know. Just trolling. Hope you guys come to a gentlemans agreement

 

[brewprint]

Yeah, I know. Just trolling. Hope you guys come to a gentlemans agreement

I'm fine.

Just trying to get others to see another point of view that's a little different than some of the modern day yeast manufacturers.

 

[rwing7486]

Here's a couple of links where I have come to my conclusions...so that there is an understanding that I'm not making emotional responses.

http://www.yeastcalculator.com/

When we pull up the above calculator there are multiple methods that we can choose from the drop down menus. They are based on the aforementioned people who have wrote "The book on yeast" and other various blogs, etc.

Which drop down menu is right? What method is correct? Hmmm

http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2013/03/25/stir-speed-and-yeast-growth/

An excellent blog written by Kai. It looks like now I need to get a better stir plate!

Where does it stop? Who is right? What is really happening with the yeast? Am I doing unnecessary steps to make my homebrew?

So to sum it all up there is no right or wrong answer, BUT there are good practices to follow to produce a better beer. There is no one saying that pitching to little yeast can make a bad beer, but you do risk straining your yeast causing a lower attenuation rates which can lead to "off" flavors in your beer (i.e. too much sweetness in an IPA). Using yeast tools is a good place to start as they are backed by science (I read it....in a book) to give you the optimum number of yeast cells to pitch that will mitigate any potential fermentation issues with yeast dropping out too soon or creating off flavor profiles.

 

[brewprint]

So to sum it all up there is no right or wrong answer, BUT there are good practices to follow to produce a better beer. There is no one saying that pitching to little yeast can make a bad beer, but you do risk straining your yeast causing a lower attenuation rates which can lead to "off" flavors in your beer (i.e. too much sweetness in an IPA). Using yeast tools is a good place to start as they are backed by science (I read it....in a book) to give you the optimum number of yeast cells to pitch that will mitigate any potential fermentation issues with yeast dropping out too soon or creating off flavor profiles.

I see where you're coming from...I really do. I'm just going to have to disagree with you.

My personal experience over the last year is that I 'under pitch.' Especially IPAs because that's about all I drink. I've pitched the correct amounts according to a random calculator and I've under pitched. I haven't noticed any difference in flavor whatsoever.

What I have noticed is that the fermentation starts harder and faster with more yeast. Therefore reducing the chance of contamination.

Off flavors? I just do not buy that. Yeast is yeast and the yeast will reproduce itself according to how much sugar is available.

 

[kombat]

I 'under pitch.' Especially IPAs because that's about all I drink. I haven't noticed any difference in flavor whatsoever.

Really?

In the higher-ABV, super-bitter, super-hoppy beers you brew and drink exclusively, you haven't detected any hints of potential off-flavours?

Is it remotely possible that those off-flavours are there, they're just being masked by the wildly strong flavours inherent in IPAs?

I challenge you to brew a clean American Lager. Underpitch, and tell me if you still can't detect any off-flavours.

Off flavors? I just do not buy that.

You don't have to "buy it." It's fact. People much smarter than you and I, with access to well-equipped laboratories, have studied the issue extensively and come to clear conclusions. Beer is a multi-billion dollar business, and with so much money at stake, incredible resources have been invested studying and fully understanding yeast.

When stressed, yeast produce off-flavours. That's simply a fact. It's not open for debate.

Yeast is yeast and the yeast will reproduce itself according to how much sugar is available.

I'm not going to bang my head against the wall. If you're really interested in learning the science behind yeast metabolism, reproduction, off-flavours, optimal pitch rates, starters, and all that stuff, then read the book "Yeast." If you don't really care, and are perfectly happy with your super-bitter, super-hoppy, higher-ABV beers that are masking most off-flavours anyway, then brew on. But don't be telling people that it doesn't matter how much yeast they pitch, it'll all taste the same no matter what. Because that's provably, factually wrong. I'm fine with you wanting to remain ignorant - I just have a problem with you spreading it.

 

[rwing7486]

I see where you're coming from...I really do. I'm just going to have to disagree with you.

My personal experience over the last year is that I 'under pitch.' Especially IPAs because that's about all I drink. I've pitched the correct amounts according to a random calculator and I've under pitched. I haven't noticed any difference in flavor whatsoever.

What I have noticed is that the fermentation starts harder and faster with more yeast. Therefore reducing the chance of contamination.

Off flavors? I just do not buy that. Yeast is yeast and the yeast will reproduce itself according to how much sugar is available.

I use to be like that too, until one of my IPA fell victim to low attenuation from pitching 1 packets of us05 into 1.070 wort (like 65% attenuation if I can remember correctly).I don't believe the under pitching was the real issue BUT it did contribute to it as I am guessing my packet could have been older and less viable yeast cells to begin with so under pitching hurt me even more. Even these companies have deviations in their process and quality concerns every now and then. I just prefer to pitch the suggested amount to try and mitigate low attenuation rates as much as possible. For example I am brewing a black IPA for this years national hombrew comp and mr malty suggest 1.2 packets of yeast/ Normally I would pitch 1 packet and call it a day, but since I want to make sure I hit my FG I plan to buy an extra packet and pitch the recommended amount.

 

[Aristotelian]

In my opinion, if someone gets a good result that they are happy with, they have not under-pitched, regardless of what the calculator says.

When you do a load of laundry, you are guaranteed to get good results if you fill the cup all the way to the recommended line. However, you can usually get the same results by fulling it about 1/3 or even less. In my opinion, you are "over pitching" if you follow the directions.

 

[rwing7486]

In my opinion, if someone gets a good result that they are happy with, they have not under-pitched, regardless of what the calculator says.

When you do a load of laundry, you are guaranteed to get good results if you fill the cup all the way to the recommended line. However, you can usually get the same results by fulling it about 1/3 or even less. In my opinion, you are "over pitching" if you follow the directions.

That's because the manufacturer wants you to exhaust their product more quickly for you run out and buy more sooner

 

[Nicknack]

In my opinion, if someone gets a good result that they are happy with, they have not under-pitched, regardless of what the calculator says.

When you do a load of laundry, you are guaranteed to get good results if you fill the cup all the way to the recommended line. However, you can usually get the same results by fulling it about 1/3 or even less. In my opinion, you are "over pitching" if you follow the directions.

Your laundry example doesn't really fit here. That is an example where the instructions aren't really based on what will produce the best results. In fact, most technicians will tell you that filling the cup to the "recommended" line is a good way of harming your washing machine. The instructions are based on what is best for the company selling the detergent (to make more money); not what is best for you.

The yeast issue is completely different. If one pitches too little yeast, based on guidelines that are backed by hard science, they have by definition under pitched regardless of whether they like are happy with the taste of the beer.

 

[brewprint]

Really?

In the higher-ABV, super-bitter, super-hoppy beers you brew and drink exclusively, you haven't detected any hints of potential off-flavours?

Is it remotely possible that those off-flavours are there, they're just being masked by the wildly strong flavours inherent in IPAs?

I challenge you to brew a clean American Lager. Underpitch, and tell me if you still can't detect any off-flavours.



You don't have to "buy it." It's fact. People much smarter than you and I, with access to well-equipped laboratories, have studied the issue extensively and come to clear conclusions. Beer is a multi-billion dollar business, and with so much money at stake, incredible resources have been invested studying and fully understanding yeast.

When stressed, yeast produce off-flavours. That's simply a fact. It's not open for debate.



I'm not going to bang my head against the wall. If you're really interested in learning the science behind yeast metabolism, reproduction, off-flavours, optimal pitch rates, starters, and all that stuff, then read the book "Yeast." If you don't really care, and are perfectly happy with your super-bitter, super-hoppy, higher-ABV beers that are masking most off-flavours anyway, then brew on. But don't be telling people that it doesn't matter how much yeast they pitch, it'll all taste the same no matter what. Because that's provably, factually wrong. I'm fine with you wanting to remain ignorant - I just have a problem with you spreading it.

We're talking about 5 gallons of beer here...not thousands.

So who do we believe is correct? Chris White? Kai? The other calculators?

Does the homebrewer need a high speed stir plate?

How many packs of yeast do I need for my high abv wine?

BTW I'm not ignorant. This isn't the first time we've discussed this on this forum. I KNOW what's written in those books and countless posts on this site.

I'm here to point out the myriad of views regarding yeast. You're here to point out only a small portion...most of which is from the book Yeast. Discrediting experience from anyone that doesn't agree with you. As well as making false claims that; 'must be true if we can see it or not.'

 

[Aristotelian]

The yeast issue is completely different. If one pitches too little yeast, based on guidelines that are backed by hard science, they have by definition under pitched regardless of whether they like are happy with the taste of the beer.

I agree, there may be a guideline that is objectively optimal, but I also think if someone gets good results pitching less than the guideline, that does not mean they under-pitched. There may be a wide range where you are still going to get good results. As long as you use common sense and get good results, you are pitching fine, in my opinion.

Even if the laundry detergent guideline came from a panel of independent experts, it's possible you could still get good results pitching half of the guideline.

 

[Lpera]

I see where you're coming from...I really do. I'm just going to have to disagree with you.

My personal experience over the last year is that I 'under pitch.' Especially IPAs because that's about all I drink. I've pitched the correct amounts according to a random calculator and I've under pitched. I haven't noticed any difference in flavor whatsoever.

What I have noticed is that the fermentation starts harder and faster with more yeast. Therefore reducing the chance of contamination.

Off flavors? I just do not buy that. Yeast is yeast and the yeast will reproduce itself according to how much sugar is available.

After those statements we should just call it.

But this is wrong man, really. Underpitching will not prevent you from making beer, but you will stress the yeast and yes, you WILL have off-flavors. You being able to recognize those off-flavors is another subject, but they will be there.

1070, 5 gallons, the recommendation is to pitch 2 packages of US-05 previously hydrated.

 

[brewprint]

After those statements we should just call it.

But this is wrong man, really. Underpitching will not prevent you from making beer, but you will stress the yeast and yes, you WILL have off-flavors. You being able to recognize those off-flavors is another subject, but they will be there.

1070, 5 gallons, the recommendation is to pitch 2 packages of US-05 previously hydrated.

Yep I call it. I also call your statement hocus pocus. US-05 gives no instructions to rehydrate ever.

One example of hocus pocus:

http://brulosophy.com/2015/04/20/yeast-pitch-rate-single-vial-vs-yeast-starter-exbeeriment-results/

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

I think this thread calls for another experiment. Actually, I suspect one (or several) has already been done.

What we really need is a panel of BJCP judges and a few split batches of wort where half the batch is significantly (>50%) "underpitched" (according to a consensus of respected yeast calculators) and half is "correctly" pitched. Brew several different styles, split and pitch accordingly and ferment under identical conditions. Then have a blind test by the BJCP judges and see if they can tell the difference.

I am most certainly NOT a BJCP judge. I have had judges (sometimes several) comment on flavors in my brew that, for the life of me, I couldn't detect even when I knew what I was looking for. All this means is that I may have underpitched (or overpitched) and thought it was fine when there were flavors there that I couldn't detect. (Of course, it may have been something entirely unrelated.)

Maybe someone can put their fingers on such a study already done. If not, this sounds like a great opportunity for Kai or one of the other respected brewers here to gather a team of BJCP judges and brewers and give it a try.

Frankly, I'd like to know myself. I do want to make the best beer I can. Should I be scrupulous about pitching what the calculators tell me to pitch or am I just throwing money away? Let's find out.

 

[rwing7486]

Yep I call it. I also call your statement hocus pocus. US-05 gives no instructions to rehydrate ever.

One example of hocus pocus:

http://brulosophy.com/2015/04/20/yeast-pitch-rate-single-vial-vs-yeast-starter-exbeeriment-results/

Ummm you are definitely wrong on this. There are rehydrate instructions for US05.....

http://www.fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/SFA_US05.pdf

 

[popquizkid]

Yep I call it. I also call your statement hocus pocus. US-05 gives no instructions to rehydrate ever.

Really???

http://www.fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/SFA_US05.pdf

 

[brewprint]

That right there is the only true way that this argument is going to be won by either side. Ultimately beer is flavor.

 

[brewprint]

I apologize about that. I received my instructions here:

 

[Nicknack]

After those statements we should just call it.

But this is wrong man, really. Underpitching will not prevent you from making beer, but you will stress the yeast and yes, you WILL have off-flavors. You being able to recognize those off-flavors is another subject, but they will be there.

1070, 5 gallons, the recommendation is to pitch 2 packages of US-05 previously hydrated.

Isn't the recommendation for 1.070 (5 gallons) 1.2 11.5g yeast packets? I used Mr. Malty to get this.

 

[Aristotelian]

What we really need is a panel of BJCP judges and a few split batches of wort where half the batch is significantly (>50%) "underpitched" (according to a consensus of respected yeast calculators) and half is "correctly" pitched. Brew several different styles, split and pitch accordingly and ferment under identical conditions. Then have a blind test by the BJCP judges and see if they can tell the difference.

That right there is the only true way that this argument is going to be won by either side. Ultimately beer is flavor.

Even if a panel of expert judges could tell the difference, we are talking about home-brewers here. Maybe he likes the "off" flavor. Maybe he can't taste the difference. If a brewer is satisfied with the results then he is pitching correctly. QED.

 

[kombat]

US-05 gives no instructions to rehydrate ever.

Dude, just ... stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

From the Fermentis website:

"Rehydration Instructions - Sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or wort at 27°C ± 3°C (80°F ± 6°F). Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes. Gently stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel."

EDIT: Heh, just noticed 2 other posters beat me to the punch.