Interesting German Brewing PDF

[rabeb25]

perhaps there is a typo, but I don't want to be adding potassium meta. there is also evidence that using AA can ultimately backfire

If you are referring to the GBF guys, none of them have actually tested and proved that. As a GBF founder and user of SBT I have to disagree.

I have thoughly tested and advocate for SBT.

I talk about it here:
http://www.********************/ingredients/antioxin-sbt/

 

[stpug]

perhaps there is a typo, but I don't want to be adding potassium meta. there is also evidence that using AA can ultimately backfire

Valid points!

My understanding of potassium- vs sodium-metabisulfite (KMB vs SMB, respectively) as it relates to low oxygen brewing is that it's stated in a textbook that you should use SMB and not KMB. However, initial trials in low oxygen brewing utilized KMB without noticeable detriment; however the "rules" were switched to SMB because that's what the textbook says. As far as adding K to wort, it's already present in MUCH greater levels in malt itself so a little added ppm should not be a concern. Granted, this is just my understanding of the process up to this point. (Summary: There should be no harm in adding a little extra K to beer/wort as it's already present in very large ppms already; and SMB is the recommended variant simply because that is what's specified in Kunze/Narziis?)

Ascorbic Acid is known to be another great anti-oxidant agent that when combined with certain agents is beneficial; when not combined with other certain agents, or combined with wrong agents (copper, I think), is detrimental. In other words, when AA is used in the correct formulation then it's an advantage (antioxidant), and when it's not then it is a disadvantage (super oxidizer). Unfortunately, I don't have better information on this at this time (I'm still reading and learning).

Maybe @rabeb25 will see this post and increase its worth because I feel like I did a poor job

Edit: ****. I didn't even have time to reply before he added more info (see post above mine)

 

[rabeb25]

Hah! Nah you did good!

I will do us all a favor and pull the infamous quote about K in the mash..
"Potassium is also a salty taste [143]. Although the malt brings large amounts of approximately 500 mg / l in the mash, the brewing water should contain not more than 10 mg / l; It has an inhibiting effect on some enzymes in the wort preparation; It is but for the fermentation of great physiological importance"

So there is the quote all this was ever based off of. The base dose of SBT brings 14mg/l, and the lower dose rings right in at 10mg/l (hint hint wink wink nudge nudge). Having tested those dosages (and many in between) I am still able to achieve 100% conversion, 90% mash Eff%.

Hope this helps

Bryan

 

[TheHairyHop]

maybe I'm confused, but I thought K Meta will kill yeast. is this dosage just below the level that does so?

 

[stpug]

maybe I'm confused, but I thought K Meta will kill yeast. is this dosage just below the level that does so?

Metabisulfite is a well known biological control agent, and at certain levels is lethal. At lower levels, it disrupts normal biologic activity for a period (i.e. yeast cannot bud but can still carry out normal activity). And at even lower levels, has minimal to no effect on biologic activity (i.e. can still bud/reproduce and carry on full activity). This is all regardless of the sodium or potassium, as it's just used to stabilize the compound in powder form.

At the levels we're using (25-50ppm), it may have an inhibitory effect for a short period of time depending on pH of wort if it was added at the same time as the yeast. However, we use the metabisulfite early on in the brewing process and it's levels get depleted throughout the mashing, boiling, and racking processes (i.e. it scavenges oxygen and converts to different forms of sulfur compounds). The goal is to get into the fermenter with almost no level of ppms left (or ideally <10ppm remaining). Therefore, by the time we're pitching yeast we should not suffer any negative effects from the small amount remaining in the wort; and any small amount remaining can (and will) be used as an anti-oxidant throughout the fermentation and bottling/kegging process.

In addition to the above, as pH goes up, the amount of metabisulfite needed to inhibit microorganisms also goes up. My understanding is that at about 4.0pH, you would require a very large dose (~100ppm±) to inhibit microorganisms for a short time (12-36 hours). In the case of beer brewing, we typically should end up in the 5.0pH ballpark going into the fermenter which could possibly require 10x the 100ppm level to have the same basic effect.

In other words, the amount of metabisulfites we are using is very small as it relates to biological control. In addition, SBT is a mixture of those three agents such that the metabisulfite component is reduced significantly from the recommended dosage originally outlined in the PDF.

(Again, this is just my understanding of things at this point in time.)

 

[joshesmusica]

It is all entirely subjective based on individual tastes anyway.

Except it's not.

Check out the site. Listen to the podcast. Read from the sources. Look up the way that these larger, famous breweries are doing it. The best ones (as far as process and control, regardless of whether or not they're brewing great classic styles or cheap macro lagers) are controlling oxygen uptake at every turn. This isn't just a new fad.

No, historically speaking, these famous German breweries weren't controlling for oxygen, but they have been doing so for quite some time because they saw the benefits of it. They've focused on what makes the most quality beer ever since they've created beer laws. But that doesn't mean they wanted to just keep making the same product if they knew they could make a better one. It just doesn't make sense to compare modern practices to century old ones. Many homebrewers are making better beer than some of the good ones from a century ago.

With that being said, and as a few have already said, yes the original PDF sounded pretty uppity. Yes some responses at the very beginning didn't respond greatly to criticism. Not the case anymore. Just read back, I was a big skeptic at the beginning of reading it too. But the more research you do, the more you will realize this will, in fact, improve your beer.

... and this is coming from a guy who hasn't had the ability to brew a batch completely LoDO yet.

 

[TexasWine]

Airmail from Australia (www.ibrew.com.au) .... turns out with the exchange rate what it is, its actually pretty cheap!

Awesome! Just ordered 3 packs. Might be more than I need, but thought I might as well have them send me several since it's coming from AU.

 

[Yeastieboy]

I'm starting similar LoDO practices, but haven't tried yeast/dextrose in my strike water as yet. Can someone tell me how much should be used, and what sort of timeframe prior to heating is recommended?

The ratio, as I understand it and have been using, is 1.6g/gal yeast to 0.8g/gal dextrose. I have been adding it in the morning, covering, and letting sit until I brew in the evening.

 

[schematix]

Awesome! Just ordered 3 packs. Might be more than I need, but thought I might as well have them send me several since it's coming from AU.

I started a BTB thread on the LOB site: http://www.********************/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35

This is a paper that describes some results when working with gallotannins that popped up in that thread i found to be at least somewhat interesting (still digesting it): http://www.********************/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Officiele_tekst_voor_Brewing_Science.pdf

 

[joshesmusica]

i plead the 5th.

I'm just wondering, but besides the copper IC, have you done everything else completely LoDO?

When you chill to mash temps after boiling did you use it then as well?

I'll probably have the SMB by my next brew, I do BIAB. Should I just go with 25mg/l to start out with, or a bit higher than that?

 

[rabeb25]

I'm just wondering, but besides the copper IC, have you done everything else completely LoDO?

When you chill to mash temps after boiling did you use it then as well?

I'll probably have the SMB by my next brew, I do BIAB. Should I just go with 25mg/l to start out with, or a bit higher than that?

I would probably start out at 35-40mgl to start.

 

[schematix]

I'm just wondering, but besides the copper IC, have you done everything else completely LoDO?

When you chill to mash temps after boiling did you use it then as well?

I follow all low oxygen recommendations from the PDF except:

1. The copper IC. In the future i'm looking to bring my plate chiller back, but only for strike/sparge water chilling. This should in theory reduce the exposure time by at least 2/3. When JaDed makes a stainless Hydra i'll be first in line. Either that or when i can find a place to gold plate my Hydra....

2. I have to sparge at least a little bit to get the volumes i need. I do treat the sparge water as suggested though.

3. I usually can't hit lager temps going right into the fermenter. My last batch i got to 64F, transferred it to kegs, then used my chest freezer to drop it to 45F over a couple hours. For those few hours i purged the keg head space 3 times and lightly pressurized the kegs. In the future i'm looking to get ice water recirculation back into the mix but currently it's a complexity that is hard to handle.

 

[stpug]

I'll probably have the SMB by my next brew, I do BIAB. Should I just go with 25mg/l to start out with, or a bit higher than that?

As far as your next brew, I would just suggest you pick a yeast strain that's known to work well with sulfites (us05/1056/001 is great, all german/bavarian lager strains are great, and many others ale/lager strains too). I only say this so you don't end up with a "sulfur bomb" your first time, which can be discouraging.

 

[joshesmusica]

As far as your next brew, I would just suggest you pick a yeast strain that's known to work well with sulfites (us05/1056/001 is great, all german/bavarian lager strains are great, and many others ale/lager strains too). I only say this so you don't end up with a "sulfur bomb" your first time, which can be discouraging.

awesome thanks!

I was up in the air between two fairly contrasting styles right now - either a NEIPA or a black lager... Might just do the black lager now and the other one afterward since if they go well, I'll enter them into the Norwegian homebrewing competition. I have about 300ml of wlp830 from a previous batch. Is it recommended to use that even though the batch wasn't anywhere near LoDO and it has the trub and what not?

 

[joshesmusica]

So would you guys want to sum up just how bad my issues with going full-on LoDO are?

1) I only have a copper IC.

2) I really only have an aluminum pot for the boil.

3) I do BIAB, and no matter how slowly I've tried to pull the bag out, it still messes up the settled grain to end up with a lot of trub. I can't whirlpool, so there's no real way to get absolutely sparkling wort into the fermenter.

4) I can do a completely closed transfer after fermentation's finished, but I can't really do that until FG is reached. Though I could certainly add some priming sugar to the keg or to the fermenter right before transfer. At least this applies to most brews, as I usually finish up a keg right about the time a new batch is ready to go in. This time I might have a keg open before that.

 

[stpug]

awesome thanks!

I was up in the air between two fairly contrasting styles right now - either a NEIPA or a black lager... Might just do the black lager now and the other one afterward since if they go well, I'll enter them into the Norwegian homebrewing competition. I have about 300ml of wlp830 from a previous batch. Is it recommended to use that even though the batch wasn't anywhere near LoDO and it has the trub and what not?

Assuming the yeast is in good health, definitely use it (as long as wlp830 is good for the style). The health and contamination-free aspects of the yeast are more important than the little bit of trub that you'll carry over. The trub portion should not greatly impact the beer.

So would you guys want to sum up just how bad my issues with going full-on LoDO are?

1) I only have a copper IC.

2) I really only have an aluminum pot for the boil.

3) I do BIAB, and no matter how slowly I've tried to pull the bag out, it still messes up the settled grain to end up with a lot of trub. I can't whirlpool, so there's no real way to get absolutely sparkling wort into the fermenter.

4) I can do a completely closed transfer after fermentation's finished, but I can't really do that until FG is reached. Though I could certainly add some priming sugar to the keg or to the fermenter right before transfer. At least this applies to most brews, as I usually finish up a keg right about the time a new batch is ready to go in. This time I might have a keg open before that.

This is how I see the copper issue as it relates to oxidative processes: With a copper IC, I would aim to minimize contact with the wort as much as possible, and aim to keep the patina on the copper throughout it's use. If the IC goes in your wort with patina and comes out of your wort shiny then you've potentially increased the oxidative load of the wort. In a similar vein, if you're putting in shiny copper and it's coming out shiny then you're increasing the oxidative load as well. If you put in a patina-ed IC and pull out a patina-ed IC, then the oxidative load of the wort should not be excessive.

Everything I've read about aluminum is that since it's non-ferrous it should not be a major concern. Again, if it's got a patina then aim to keep the patina intact.

Don't worry about sparkling wort right now. That's a long-term goal that you can work towards. For now, start small and easy; baby steps.

Priming the keg (or priming the fermenter just prior to racking) is a great place to start in your situation. I like the fermenter priming about an hour before racking, but if priming the keg is easier then do that. Adjust in the future if you think it's necessary.

I think the goal is to simply recognize the potential drawbacks of oxygen in the brewing process and takes steps to minimize; even if they're small steps. Start easy, start small, and work upwards from there. I believe there is incremental improvement with small steps. Plus, a bunch of small steps adds up to significant improvement.

 

[joshesmusica]

Assuming the yeast is in good health, definitely use it (as long as wlp830 is good for the style). The health and contamination-free aspects of the yeast are more important than the little bit of trub that you'll carry over. The trub portion should not greatly impact the beer.



This is how I see the copper issue as it relates to oxidative processes: With a copper IC, I would aim to minimize contact with the wort as much as possible, and aim to keep the patina on the copper throughout it's use. If the IC goes in your wort with patina and comes out of your wort shiny then you've potentially increased the oxidative load of the wort. In a similar vein, if you're putting in shiny copper and it's coming out shiny then you're increasing the oxidative load as well. If you put in a patina-ed IC and pull out a patina-ed IC, then the oxidative load of the wort should not be excessive.

Everything I've read about aluminum is that since it's non-ferrous it should not be a major concern. Again, if it's got a patina then aim to keep the patina intact.

Don't worry about sparkling wort right now. That's a long-term goal that you can work towards. For now, start small and easy; baby steps.

Priming the keg (or priming the fermenter just prior to racking) is a great place to start in your situation. I like the fermenter priming about an hour before racking, but if priming the keg is easier then do that. Adjust in the future if you think it's necessary.

I think the goal is to simply recognize the potential drawbacks of oxygen in the brewing process and takes steps to minimize; even if they're small steps. Start easy, start small, and work upwards from there. I believe there is incremental improvement with small steps. Plus, a bunch of small steps adds up to significant improvement.

Thanks a ton, very encouraging stuff. By going ahead and using the copper IC to chill before the mash and after the wort boil, I should actually make up the time it takes to bring the full volume to a boil.

What is the dosage of smb that you would recommend for the first go-round?

 

[stpug]

I would probably start out at 35-40mgl to start.

^^What Bryan said is an ideal starting point, and since you're starting with the black lager I would personally go for the 40mg/l rate. For the NEIPA, I would probably go on the lower end - 35mg/l. You may find out through trial-and-error that you need a lower or higher dosage for different beers, and that's fine too.

 

[joshesmusica]

I would probably start out at 35-40mgl to start.

^^What Bryan said is an ideal starting point, and since you're starting with the black lager I would personally go for the 40mg/l rate. For the NEIPA, I would probably go on the lower end - 35mg/l. You may find out through trial-and-error that you need a lower or higher dosage for different beers, and that's fine too.

Oh ****, thanks. For some reason, I completely missed that post.

Thanks a ton guys. It'll be a while before I can report back with any "results," but I'm really encouraged to take this next step.

So just to make sure I'm doing my math right, if I'm adding 40mg/l (40ppm?), that basically equates to 10ppm sodium and 30ppm sulfates (if I remember correctly from the podcast)?

 

[stpug]

So just to make sure I'm doing my math right, if I'm adding 40mg/l (40ppm?), that basically equates to 10ppm sodium and 30ppm sulfates (if I remember correctly from the podcast)?

That's an excellent question that I don't know the answer to, but I'd like to know as well. Maybe @rabeb25 or @Big_Monk will see this and give us an answer.

I look forward to your trial run and any results you experience from it. I'll hope the best for you

 

[lari]

@joshesmusica
if you download a lodo quick reference spreadsheet you'll see you are correct

http://www.********************/uncategorized/low-oxygen-quick-reference-spreadsheet/

http://www.********************/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Low-O2-Quick-Reference.xlsx

 

[WiscBrewer]

So would you guys want to sum up just how bad my issues with going full-on LoDO are?

3) I do BIAB, and no matter how slowly I've tried to pull the bag out, it still messes up the settled grain to end up with a lot of trub. I can't whirlpool, so there's no real way to get absolutely sparkling wort into the fermenter.

I just bought a 300 micron stainless hop rocket that I plan to pull at the end of the boil, and quickly clean and sanitize. I then plan to use it in the kettle as I siphon to the fermenter (ie. siphon from in the hop rocket). Will this result in sparkling wort going into the fermenter? Don't know...we'll see.

 

[rabeb25]

My biggest point to push is don't lose sight of the Forrest for the trees.
Deoxygenated water
Add sulfites
Be gentle and try not to splash
Figure out some way to naturally carb.

That's literally all that needs to be done to see an easily notable improvement. Once you get that down, then refine and go into weeds with trub and whatever. At its core it's really simple.

 

[Yeastieboy]

...At its core it's really simple.

Amen.

 

[Edelst0ff]

Ok im intrigued. One question though, how do you prevent oxidation during the decoction?
Actually two questions, is a stainless immersion chiller sufficient, or what do you recommend for cooling?

If you decoct your problem is to avoid oxygen intake during transfers.

This is solved in the same way as transfers to the sparge tun are handled, by gently pumping the grain from beneath. I have no idea how one might do that on a small system.

 

[Mer-man]

@stpug - thanks for confirming. What I have read about the copper patina is that it is inert, so the surface should be much less reactive. My IC has a good patina layer (no, no verdigris or black patches).

@rabeb25 - Do you have more info on the implications of SBT use? I like the sound of it but am concerned about use (ascorbic acid, specifically) in a wort where I use my patina'd copper chiller. What do you think? I see the manufacturer claims it is all neutralized by the boil, so I expect it could work fine.

 

[Mer-man]

You actually have probably THE BEST option available to you since you live in Italy. Antioxin SBT is a formulation using potassium metabisulfite, ascorbic acid, and gallotannins. This mixture is often referred to as the 'trifecta' and is only available to commercial brewers in many parts of the world including the US. This pre-packaged mixture is what most folks in the USA have to mix themselves using individual powders, and the resulting mixture is not quite as good as the real thing.

The unfortunate part is that if you buy a kilo of the stuff then you'll probably die with 80% of it left . The fortunate part is that you don't have to brew "low oxygen" in order to use the stuff - it should be used for any and every beer you brew regardless of oxygen level.

Might be worth considering:
http://www.mr-malt.com/antioxin-sbt-kg-1.html

I am trying to get a reasonable shipping rate from these guys. If I can, I would be happy to share it at cost here in Fortress Europa.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I am trying to get a reasonable shipping rate from these guys. If I can, I would be happy to share it at cost here in Fortress Europa.

would it be cheaper to have me buy it and ship your portion from Italy?

 

[joshesmusica]

@joshesmusica
if you download a lodo quick reference spreadsheet you'll see you are correct

http://www.********************/uncategorized/low-oxygen-quick-reference-spreadsheet/

http://www.********************/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Low-O2-Quick-Reference.xlsx

I think I tried to click on that link yesterday from my MacBook. It didn't work.

But either way, I can just plug those numbers into my brun water spreadsheet. At 40mg/l it's not even adding all the sulfates I would more than likely want with some styles.

 

[joshesmusica]

My biggest point to push is don't lose sight of the Forrest for the trees.
Deoxygenated water
Add sulfites
Be gentle and try not to splash
Figure out some way to naturally carb.

That's literally all that needs to be done to see an easily notable improvement. Once you get that down, then refine and go into weeds with trub and whatever. At its core it's really simple.

Good stuff! Thanks!

 

[Bilsch]

I literally just bought a kilo yesterday and had em ship it to Portugal. Freight wasn't too terrible at 22 euros. Hopefully US customs won't have an issue with a package of white powder in my luggage.

 

[trav77]

I literally just bought a kilo yesterday and had em ship it to Portugal. Freight wasn't too terrible at 22 euros. Hopefully US customs won't have an issue with a package of white powder in my luggage.

Just hide it in a coffee can. I hear they like that.

 

[stpug]

So just to make sure I'm doing my math right, if I'm adding 40mg/l (40ppm?), that basically equates to 10ppm sodium and 30ppm sulfates (if I remember correctly from the podcast)?

According to the v2 paper from last fall, this is what they say:

Using 1 mg/l of SMB will add 0.24 ppm sodium to your water,
and 0.76 ppm of sulfur compounds (sulfur dioxide, sulfite, and bisulfite). The
amount of sulfate formed will depend upon how much oxygen is introduced
into your system and subsequently scavenged by the sulfites.

So basically one quarter of your dosage (by weight) will be sodium, the rest will be some form of sulfur compound. If you add 1 gram SMB then you'll get 240mg sodium and 760mg sulfur compound out of it. I believe that the sodium will remain 100% but that the sulfur compound will not, as some could be driven out as so2 gas (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), AND any that does remain in the BK/fermenter/keg is not guaranteed to be sulfate but rather just some form of sulf- ite/ate/ide compound.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I literally just bought a kilo yesterday and had em ship it to Portugal. Freight wasn't too terrible at 22 euros. Hopefully US customs won't have an issue with a package of white powder in my luggage.

I will probably bring some back with me when I visit the States in May and I was wondering exactly how to bring it. The original packaging is somewhat attention grabbing

 

[Bilsch]

I wouldent take it out of, or even open the package as that would grab even more attention. Nothing in there that's illegal or violates the customs rules. If they stop you explain it's campden, vitimin c and tannin.

 

[joshesmusica]

I started a BTB thread on the LOB site: http://www.********************/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35

This is a paper that describes some results when working with gallotannins that popped up in that thread i found to be at least somewhat interesting (still digesting it): http://www.********************/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Officiele_tekst_voor_Brewing_Science.pdf

What brought me back to this thread after kind of writing it off when it first came out was that someone had mentioned that their NEIPAs in that thread had become significantly better. Was that you?

Are you on the low-oxygen site's forum?

 

[schematix]

What brought me back to this thread after kind of writing it off when it first came out was that someone had mentioned that their NEIPAs in that thread had become significantly better. Was that you?



Are you on the low-oxygen site's forum?

Could have been me. I think there was another guy too. The LoDO IPA I made back in October is still phenomenal and has 95% of its hop character still. Usually that's just outright gone after 30 days.

And yes I'm on the LOB forum now too. Same name. This site is just too hostile to have productive discussions on the subject.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

2 Questions:

1: What is a recommended LoDO method of dry hopping if using corny kegs?
Obviously opening the keg is going to introduce O2 and violate the "closed" transfer system.
I'm going to assume you recommend adding the hops during active fermentation, not because of biotransformation, but so the yeast can scavenge introduced O2?

I'm sure it's been addressed here, but I've kinda hit my time/patience limit for today fishing through this thread looking for it.

2: How many of you practitioners using a corny keg system end up using a third keg? Seems to me that for the cleanest beer, I would want a primary fermneter keg, then racking to a lagering keg/bright tank, then finally to a clean serving keg. Then again, by adding the additional transfer, you risk introducing more oxygen without active yeast to counter it.

Is the solution to leave the beer in primary until it drops bright? But then 't that would adversely affect your ability to spund/naturally carbonate.

Anybody want to clear up an ideal process here? I am used to crystal clear lagers and I rarely use fining agents. I'd hate to lose that quality.

 

[rabeb25]

2 Questions:

1: What is a recommended LoDO method of dry hopping if using corny kegs?
Obviously opening the keg is going to introduce O2 and violate the "closed" transfer system.
I'm going to assume you recommend adding the hops during active fermentation, not because of biotransformation, but so the yeast can scavenge introduced O2?

I'm sure it's been addressed here, but I've kinda hit my time/patience limit for today fishing through this thread looking for it.

2: How many of you practitioners using a corny keg system end up using a third keg? Seems to me that for the cleanest beer, I would want a primary fermneter keg, then racking to a lagering keg/bright tank, then finally to a clean serving keg. Then again, by adding the additional transfer, you risk introducing more oxygen without active yeast to counter it.

Is the solution to leave the beer in primary until it drops bright? But then 't that would adversely affect your ability to spund/naturally carbonate.

Anybody want to clear up an ideal process here? I am used to crystal clear lagers and I rarely use fining agents. I'd hate to lose that quality.

1. http://www.********************/uncategorized/low-oxygen-dryhopping/

2. I go right from fermenter to final serving keg. Transfer with 3-4 gravity points remaining, use a good floccing strain and you will have clear beer in a few weeks. Around 4 weeks my beers look like this.

I just use whirfloc and good brewing practices

 

[Cavpilot2000]

1. http://www.********************/uncategorized/low-oxygen-dryhopping/

2. I go right from fermenter to final serving keg. Transfer with 3-4 gravity points remaining, use a good floccing strain and you will have clear beer in a few weeks. Around 4 weeks my beers look like this.

I just use whirfloc and good brewing practices

Thanks for the info.
It's just taking a little processing to think in terms of a change in process.
When making lagers (about 40-50% of my brews are German lagers), I usually do the primary, then rack to a glass carboy for lagering, then to a keg for serving, but since I am switching to lagering in kegs anyway and attempting to have a closed system from ferment to serving, I guess two kegs will do.