Interesting German Brewing PDF

[Bilsch]

I literally just bought a kilo yesterday and had em ship it to Portugal. Freight wasn't too terrible at 22 euros. Hopefully US customs won't have an issue with a package of white powder in my luggage.

 

[trav77]

I literally just bought a kilo yesterday and had em ship it to Portugal. Freight wasn't too terrible at 22 euros. Hopefully US customs won't have an issue with a package of white powder in my luggage.

Just hide it in a coffee can. I hear they like that.

 

[stpug]

So just to make sure I'm doing my math right, if I'm adding 40mg/l (40ppm?), that basically equates to 10ppm sodium and 30ppm sulfates (if I remember correctly from the podcast)?

According to the v2 paper from last fall, this is what they say:

Using 1 mg/l of SMB will add 0.24 ppm sodium to your water,
and 0.76 ppm of sulfur compounds (sulfur dioxide, sulfite, and bisulfite). The
amount of sulfate formed will depend upon how much oxygen is introduced
into your system and subsequently scavenged by the sulfites.

So basically one quarter of your dosage (by weight) will be sodium, the rest will be some form of sulfur compound. If you add 1 gram SMB then you'll get 240mg sodium and 760mg sulfur compound out of it. I believe that the sodium will remain 100% but that the sulfur compound will not, as some could be driven out as so2 gas (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), AND any that does remain in the BK/fermenter/keg is not guaranteed to be sulfate but rather just some form of sulf- ite/ate/ide compound.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I literally just bought a kilo yesterday and had em ship it to Portugal. Freight wasn't too terrible at 22 euros. Hopefully US customs won't have an issue with a package of white powder in my luggage.

I will probably bring some back with me when I visit the States in May and I was wondering exactly how to bring it. The original packaging is somewhat attention grabbing

 

[Bilsch]

I wouldent take it out of, or even open the package as that would grab even more attention. Nothing in there that's illegal or violates the customs rules. If they stop you explain it's campden, vitimin c and tannin.

 

[joshesmusica]

I started a BTB thread on the LOB site: http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35

This is a paper that describes some results when working with gallotannins that popped up in that thread i found to be at least somewhat interesting (still digesting it): http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Officiele_tekst_voor_Brewing_Science.pdf

What brought me back to this thread after kind of writing it off when it first came out was that someone had mentioned that their NEIPAs in that thread had become significantly better. Was that you?

Are you on the low-oxygen site's forum?

 

[schematix]

What brought me back to this thread after kind of writing it off when it first came out was that someone had mentioned that their NEIPAs in that thread had become significantly better. Was that you?



Are you on the low-oxygen site's forum?

Could have been me. I think there was another guy too. The LoDO IPA I made back in October is still phenomenal and has 95% of its hop character still. Usually that's just outright gone after 30 days.

And yes I'm on the LOB forum now too. Same name. This site is just too hostile to have productive discussions on the subject.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

2 Questions:

1: What is a recommended LoDO method of dry hopping if using corny kegs?
Obviously opening the keg is going to introduce O2 and violate the "closed" transfer system.
I'm going to assume you recommend adding the hops during active fermentation, not because of biotransformation, but so the yeast can scavenge introduced O2?

I'm sure it's been addressed here, but I've kinda hit my time/patience limit for today fishing through this thread looking for it.

2: How many of you practitioners using a corny keg system end up using a third keg? Seems to me that for the cleanest beer, I would want a primary fermneter keg, then racking to a lagering keg/bright tank, then finally to a clean serving keg. Then again, by adding the additional transfer, you risk introducing more oxygen without active yeast to counter it.

Is the solution to leave the beer in primary until it drops bright? But then 't that would adversely affect your ability to spund/naturally carbonate.

Anybody want to clear up an ideal process here? I am used to crystal clear lagers and I rarely use fining agents. I'd hate to lose that quality.

 

[rabeb25]

2 Questions:

1: What is a recommended LoDO method of dry hopping if using corny kegs?
Obviously opening the keg is going to introduce O2 and violate the "closed" transfer system.
I'm going to assume you recommend adding the hops during active fermentation, not because of biotransformation, but so the yeast can scavenge introduced O2?

I'm sure it's been addressed here, but I've kinda hit my time/patience limit for today fishing through this thread looking for it.

2: How many of you practitioners using a corny keg system end up using a third keg? Seems to me that for the cleanest beer, I would want a primary fermneter keg, then racking to a lagering keg/bright tank, then finally to a clean serving keg. Then again, by adding the additional transfer, you risk introducing more oxygen without active yeast to counter it.

Is the solution to leave the beer in primary until it drops bright? But then 't that would adversely affect your ability to spund/naturally carbonate.

Anybody want to clear up an ideal process here? I am used to crystal clear lagers and I rarely use fining agents. I'd hate to lose that quality.

1. http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/low-oxygen-dryhopping/

2. I go right from fermenter to final serving keg. Transfer with 3-4 gravity points remaining, use a good floccing strain and you will have clear beer in a few weeks. Around 4 weeks my beers look like this.

I just use whirfloc and good brewing practices

 

[Cavpilot2000]

1. http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/low-oxygen-dryhopping/

2. I go right from fermenter to final serving keg. Transfer with 3-4 gravity points remaining, use a good floccing strain and you will have clear beer in a few weeks. Around 4 weeks my beers look like this.

I just use whirfloc and good brewing practices

Thanks for the info.
It's just taking a little processing to think in terms of a change in process.
When making lagers (about 40-50% of my brews are German lagers), I usually do the primary, then rack to a glass carboy for lagering, then to a keg for serving, but since I am switching to lagering in kegs anyway and attempting to have a closed system from ferment to serving, I guess two kegs will do.

 

[rabeb25]

I don't know how you will get 2 kegs to work for you, unless you are able to vacuum and purge your final keg. If you want to get crazy cut your diptube, but fermenter to final gravity/lagering/serving keg is all thats needed.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I don't know how you will get 2 kegs to work for you, unless you are able to vacuum and purge your final keg. If you want to get crazy cut your diptube, but fermenter to final gravity/lagering/serving keg is all thats needed.

When I say two kegs, I mean using one as a primary.

 

[rabeb25]

When I say two kegs, I mean using one as a primary.

Ahh! Good call.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I picked up two 3 gallon kegs. I've been fermenting in a 5 gallon corny, pulling out sludge as it ferments, waiting until there is enough gravity to carb, and then close transferring to the 3 gallon. It works well and I wish that I hadn't moved and lost my ferm chamber in the process. you can do all this with a mini fridge, a heating blanket and an STC-1000

 

[bbohanon]

Update on my Octoberfest that I did full LODO and then spunded in the serving keg with water/priming sugar post fermentation to scavenge the oxygen..this one really does show more of the malt character than previous batches for sure..I can honestly say this is without a doubt one if not the best Octoberfest I have ever brewed..

It still needs about 2-3 more weeks of lagering to drop clear, but its very very good..Clean, no bite, smooth, the german malts really come through and the beer is 100% IMHO "to style".

I did a RIS this weekend that is fermenting in my new 15.5 Sanke fermenter that was NOT done LODO but I am going to spund it in the serving keg as I did with the Octoberfest.
This will also be the first batch I have done where the beer will never see the light of day (post brew kettle) oxygen wise until its in the glass as all x-ferring between primary and serving keg will be done pushing the beer around using C02 in a closed system so no more racking cane x-fer for me (whoo hoo!)..

Next up, I am going to brew a Hefewiezen LODO to see if its better than last years batch which was a smash hit when it was done non-LODO.

I can honestly say from my results, I DO believe there is benefit to this LODO brewing. I will also say that I do think certain styles see the benefit of it more than others do..
I personally dont think an IPA will see much of a benefit unless its going to stick around on tap for a while and you want to keep more of that IPA "Pop" to it as it ages..

Anything that is a malt forward style of beer I think is where you see this method really shine..

My next set of testing will be to see if I can brew a few non-LODO beers (like the octoberfest again with no-hot side LODO) using strict cold side oxygen control (spunding/complete purged closed system xfer from primary to serving keg) as I do think alot of the beer quality gets lost at that point for home brewers more than anything else and its a chronic problem for ANY style.

I know from past experience and with other fellow homebrewers coming into the hobby that sloppy cold side handling will cause premature spoilage with oxygen introduction.

:fro:

 

[rabeb25]

Congrats man! Great to hear! Your Hefe will thank you as well

 

[stpug]

Next up, I am going to brew a Hefewiezen LODO to see if its better than last years batch which was a smash hit when it was done non-LODO.

I just wanted to point out that several folks have had pretty poor (read: sulfur-hell) results using WLP351 in low oxygen brewing. In fact, several folks have noticed big residual sulfur with this yeast in NON low oxygen batches even.

On the other hand, Wyeast 3068 has shown success for some folks with low oxygen brewing. I've used this yeast years ago (before low oxy brewing) and it was excellent for bringing those classic banana/clove characteristics.

You can find a list of yeast strains and compatibility with SMB that I'm trying to keep updated here:
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9&start=10#p401

 

[bbohanon]

I just wanted to point out that several folks have had pretty poor (read: sulfur-hell) results using WLP351 in low oxygen brewing. In fact, several folks have noticed big residual sulfur with this yeast in NON low oxygen batches even.

On the other hand, Wyeast 3068 has shown success for some folks with low oxygen brewing. I've used this yeast years ago (before low oxy brewing) and it was excellent for bringing those classic banana/clove characteristics.

You can find a list of yeast strains and compatibility with SMB that I'm trying to keep updated here:
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9&start=10#p401

That sucks...the LHBS only carries White Labs as their house yeast (I am in NC so White Labs has a factory here that is local in Asheville). Will have to source some Wyeast for this if this is the case..I certainly dont want any sulfur bombs in my hefe..

 

[stpug]

That sucks...the LHBS only carries White Labs as their house yeast (I am in NC so White Labs has a factory here that is local in Asheville). Will have to source some Wyeast for this if this is the case..I certainly dont want any sulfur bombs in my hefe..

I'm with ya. I have a sulfurKolsch just lying in wait (on 2nd month in keg) that used Safale K-97 (another poor low oxy choice); I'm hoping the sulfur will fade away. I sampled it yesterday, and while it's better than it was in December, the first thing you smell and taste is the sulfur. Once you can get your brain beyond the sulfur, the underlying beer is quite good, but MAN is that sulfur distracting (and sulfurBurps are gross ).

If you're a gambler you can certainly see for yourself with WLP351, but I thought I would put that out there before you possibly end up where others have already been. I've never used WLP351 myself so I cannot comment on this strain from direct experience; just what I've read.

I wonder if Imperial, Omega, or other yeast manufacturers are available in your area that have a suitable hefe strain?

 

[bbohanon]

I'm with ya. I have a sulfurKolsch just lying in wait (on 2nd month in keg) that used Safale K-97 (another poor low oxy choice); I'm hoping the sulfur will fade away. I sampled it yesterday, and while it's better than it was in December, the first thing you smell and taste is the sulfur. Once you can get your brain beyond the sulfur, the underlying beer is quite good, but MAN is that sulfur distracting (and sulfurBurps are gross ).

If you're a gambler you can certainly see for yourself with WLP351, but I thought I would put that out there before you possibly end up where others have already been. I've never used WLP351 myself so I cannot comment on this strain from direct experience; just what I've read.

I wonder if Imperial, Omega, or other yeast manufacturers are available in your area that have a suitable hefe strain?

No thanks..no gambling here. I would rather do it non-LODO with zero sulfur than get the rotten egg beer..I get hints of sulfur in my hefe with white labs regardless at the tail end of the first week/beginning of the second week of fermentation as it is but it always is gone by the time I rack it.
Having it carry to the serving keg would really suck.

Yet more things to learn about LODO..not all the glitters is gold with this method for sure.

 

[TheHairyHop]

No thanks..no gambling here. I would rather do it non-LODO with zero sulfur than get the rotten egg beer..I get hints of sulfur in my hefe with white labs regardless at the tail end of the first week/beginning of the second week of fermentation as it is but it always is gone by the time I rack it.
Having it carry to the serving keg would really suck.

Yet more things to learn about LODO..not all the glitters is gold with this method for sure.

to be clear, if not a bit nitpicky, the use of SMB is not required for low dissolved oxygen. using it is just a method that allows for this to be achieved economically. although some styles may benefit from or require oxidation, I would go ahead and say that everything else does indeed glitter from LODO, based off of the general cost of oxidation with respect to flavor. the sulphur bombs are not a result of minimizing dissolved oxygen, but using SMB to achieve this

 

[stpug]

to be clear, if not a bit nitpicky, the use of SMB is not required for low dissolved oxygen. using it is just a method that allows for this to be achieved economically. although some styles may benefit from or require oxidation, I would go ahead and say that everything else does indeed glitter from LODO, based off of the general cost of oxidation with respect to flavor. the sulphur bombs are not a result of minimizing dissolved oxygen, but using SMB to achieve this

Excellent point that's easily (and frequently) overlooked.

There have been several batches I've brewed that I've not used SMB due to yeast/sulfur issues, but I did all other low oxy brewing methods (to the best of my abilities) and felt that I was still rewarded with better-than-typical-for-me beer. The biggest downside to these beers was longevity in the keg; they faded faster.

 

[techbrau]

The sulfur bombs are the result of overdosing on SMB If you're getting sulfur bombs then it means you should decrease your dose.

The tricky part is that each system is different and requires a different amount of SMB. So it takes some dialing in for your individual process.

Once your system is dialed in, you should be able to make beers with zero perceptible sulfur that have all of the non-oxidized malt flavor intact.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Anybody care to collect and collate a list of "SMB friendly" and "SMB UN-friendly" yeasts?
Also, I notice on the website the comment that the LO2 collective has not found a compatible dry yeast. Really? Not even 34/70? I've always found that one to be super forgiving and adaptable.

 

[stpug]

Anybody care to collect and collate a list of "SMB friendly" and "SMB UN-friendly" yeasts?

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9&start=10#p401

Also, I notice on the website the comment that the LO2 collective has not found a compatible dry yeast. Really? Not even 34/70? I've always found that one to be super forgiving and adaptable.

I think this is a preferential choice of the brewer. The 34/70 yeast should be a perfectly acceptable yeast strain for low oxygen brewing processes if you like what 34/70 brings to the table.

On a more philosophical note, I would not call the low oxygen brewing any kind of "collective"; in fact, it's a fairly fragmented process and group at the moment. It's far from main-stream, far from standardized, and still pretty experimental (especially on a brewer-by-brewer basis). At least, that's how I see it at the present time. BUT, momentum seems to be picking up on all fronts, and many folks are enjoying the results of their labors and seeing improvement in various aspects of their beers (especially on the longevity/stability of the beer). Just one guy's opinion of course.

 

[Edelst0ff]

Anybody care to collect and collate a list of "SMB friendly" and "SMB UN-friendly" yeasts?
Also, I notice on the website the comment that the LO2 collective has not found a compatible dry yeast. Really? Not even 34/70? I've always found that one to be super forgiving and adaptable.

34/70 is the workorse. I totally agree with you that its a de facto reference yeast for these styles. W34/70 however, is only authentic as far as HBW is concerned, since its their catalogue If.

I'm currently testing the original.

Lets see how this turns out.

 

[joshesmusica]

Hasn't there also been some speculation that the 34/70 strain is actually a kolsch one?

 

[oujens]

I've recently stumbled across this and am a little overwhelmed with the back and forth. Me personally, I feel slight oxidation keeps my beers from shining even though I've improved my process to the point I enjoy everything out of my keg. I think post fermentation transfer hurts me the most. I'm brewing a brown ale this weekend and thought I might try some of this. What I can do (full volume BIAB):

Boil mash water
Use wort chiller
Gently stir mash
Add SMB
Simmer wort
Chill close to pitch temp
Aerate after pitching

The bad:
Copper wort chiller
Ferment in buckets
No closed transfer
No mash cap
No spunding valve

I think I can address the close transfer by transferring right before FG is reached and add priming sugar to keg.

Would my efforts here be a waste? Any issues? Very interested to see even some improvement in my beers. Thanks in advance

 

[stpug]

What I can do (full volume BIAB):

Boil mash water
Use wort chiller
Add SMB
Gently stir mash
Add SMB (moved above)
Simmer wort
Chill close to pitch temp
Aerate after pitching

The bad:
Copper wort chiller (no worries; don't clean the patina; remove from wort when not in use)
Ferment in buckets (no worries; yeast keep you protected here)
No closed transfer (no worries but keep focus on minimizing O2 pickup - splashing and such)
No mash cap (no worries, use foil or plastic wrap)
No spunding valve (no worries; just rack with remaining sugars or prime in primary then rack an hour later)

I think I can address the close transfer by transferring right before FG is reached and add priming sugar to keg.

Would my efforts here be a waste? Any issues? Very interested to see even some improvement in my beers. Thanks in advance

I do not believe your efforts would be a waste, and any "issues" you have are all things that you can tighten up later on down the road if you decide this is a path worth pursuing.

 

[oujens]

I do not believe your efforts would be a waste, and any "issues" you have are all things that you can tighten up later on down the road if you decide this is a path worth pursuing.

Thanks for the tips. I approach this with an open mind and knowing that my current process needs improvement whether or not I use LODO. I think it does make sense and appreciate all the work that has gone into this research and discussion. Only time will tell, but I'm very interested to see if I can achieve the results described.