Interesting German Brewing PDF

[schematix]

Do you guys take any measurements during the mash (for those that don't have super fancy setups)?

I'm now on my third batch of just trying to dial in a process of minimal splashing. (I've explained that I'm just hoping to see some results, even though I'm not going full-on LoDo just yet.) On two of those three batches of pouring the grain gently straight into the water and then gently stirring and checking for dough balls, I've experienced that even 30 minutes into the mash, it seems that the grain isn't quite having all of the expected chemical reactions, and is quite a bit lower than expected. Today I extended the mash to 90 minutes in order to attempt to counteract this. Numbers were a bit low, but very close. So it seemed to have worked. But I just can't seem to stir enough with this approach.

Anybody else that doesn't have any kind of recirculating mash experience this?

Measurements of what? DO? SG? pH?

If its efficiency you are referring to, you'll need to stir (gently) a few times during your mash, just like you would for a normal HiDO mash.

I lost about 10% efficiency when i switched to LoDO but i'm still trying to determine if its LoDO, or something else. I had to change a lot all at once so the verdict is still out.

Also i think of us are doing step mashs so we're doing 90-120 minute mashes already.

 

[stpug]

So I've been looking at this extensive post and while I'm skeptical I'm willing to consider implementing a test batch.

I have for the most part the set up needed.

RO water
The ability to condition the malt pre milling.
The ability to pump treated preboiled water to underlet the mash.
I can do a single no sparge mash in my 30g mash tun. I can recirc to maintain and ramp temps. I will need to ditch the blichmann auto sparge but could build a bulkhead that would allow me to recirc to the ss brewtech recirc manifold under the surface of the mash and keep splashing to a minimum. I can look into making some type of cap to limit headspace above the mash.

I can limit the level of the boil to a simmer.

I have temp controlled conical fermentors and can transfer under co2 to purged kegs as described, I do not have spunding valves as yet but I can look into this.

Do you have information regarding the use of a stainless steel counter flow chiller? I'm assuming a whirlpool is a no no but it seems that any o2 picked up post boil will be scavenged by yeast in the same manner that it is while aerating with o2 after pitching the yeast. Thats assuming the cooling is rapid and the transfer is fast.

A SS counterflow and whirlpool setup are all fine as long as you keep any oxygen incorporation to a minimum (recirc output ends should be under surface of wort to minimize aeration). Keeping O2 pickup minimized while the wort is hot is key as the oxidative reactions occur more quickly while hot. Any O2 pickup towards the end of chilling will be quickly scavenged by yeast.

It seems the dry hop is a challenge as I would be opening the fermentor to add hops. If done while still fermenting is this enough to scavenge o2 introduced during the dry-hop?

Yes, if done while fermenting then you have yeast to help scavenge any introduced O2.

Has anyone looked at the use of an ss brewtech or sabco bright tank? You could push the beer to the bright tank (purged) before FG is achieved, and have a larger surface to collect the final yeast dropping out. Then serve or push to the keg? If so would beer gas be a better alternative for pushing?

Sounds cool, but really expensive. I've never looked into this method but I'm sure someone has. Maybe they'll chime in.

Please let me know your thoughts

Cheers

^^Those are my thoughts on your questions. Hope it helps.

 

[stpug]

Do you guys take any measurements during the mash (for those that don't have super fancy setups)?

pH and gravities are all I take. I don't have (or plan on buying) a DO meter.

I'm now on my third batch of just trying to dial in a process of minimal splashing. (I've explained that I'm just hoping to see some results, even though I'm not going full-on LoDo just yet.) On two of those three batches of pouring the grain gently straight into the water and then gently stirring and checking for dough balls, I've experienced that even 30 minutes into the mash, it seems that the grain isn't quite having all of the expected chemical reactions, and is quite a bit lower than expected. Today I extended the mash to 90 minutes in order to attempt to counteract this. Numbers were a bit low, but very close. So it seemed to have worked. But I just can't seem to stir enough with this approach.

I'm not sure what "chemical reactions" you'd expect to visually see happening, but I also don't SEE chemical reactions taking place in my MLT/BK. As BIAB brewer, I simply lower my bag with crushed grain into the strike water slowly (takes maybe 3-4 minutes) so the water can move into the grain mass using capillary action; this has resulted in minimal (usually none) doughballs. Also, as a non-recirc brewer, I have to included a couple stirs during my mashing. I stir at beginning, midpoint, end of mash steps, and during remping. This is done with minimal effort and focus is on not incorporating air/o2 into mash; so it's slow and gentle. Assuming you mean your gravities are "quite a bit lower" then expected I would say that you need to incorporate a little bit of additional stirring and you should see that issue go away. The first couple batches I did with this method didn't include any stirring and I saw a hit of 15-25% on efficiency; once I added back a minimal amount of stirring the issue went away. I've actually seen a net GAIN of 1-2% efficiency since moving from batch sparging to no-sparge BIAB.

Anybody else that doesn't have any kind of recirculating mash experience this?

^^this is how I'm approaching this methodology right now. The gist is you WILL need to do some minimal stirring, and just focus on not splashing/aerating the wort when you do so.

 

[catsnbeer]

My first lodo batch is underway right now. I went with a Marzen of 80% Munich, 15% Pils and 5% Caramunich II. The mash is 62/72/76 with 30/30/10 for time.

I Haven't sampled it quite yet. It is less aromatic than nominal DO brewing, but I am not sure if it is less aromatic than when I have just pre-boiled and underlet (no SMB).

 

[catsnbeer]

....and I just sampled it (mash). Amazing!:rockin: I have tasted hints of this before doing pre-boil only with underlet. But this is far superior, more depth. Not that sugary type taste. Now to see if I can preserve this!

 

[joshesmusica]

Measurements of what? DO? SG? pH?

If its efficiency you are referring to, you'll need to stir (gently) a few times during your mash, just like you would for a normal HiDO mash.

I lost about 10% efficiency when i switched to LoDO but i'm still trying to determine if its LoDO, or something else. I had to change a lot all at once so the verdict is still out.

Also i think of us are doing step mashs so we're doing 90-120 minute mashes already.

haha, I guess that was pretty vague. Meant to type pH. I already got pretty bad efficiency from doing full-volume mashes. I used to squeeze the hell out of the bag, and even tried crushing to basically flour, and still couldn't ever get huge bumps.

Yeah, I guess that makes more sense then. And I know that conditioning the grains is supposed to be part of it, so I'm sure that helps as well. I don't really have that capability as I have to get them crushed at the hbs.

 

[joshesmusica]

^^this is how I'm approaching this methodology right now. The gist is you WILL need to do some minimal stirring, and just focus on not splashing/aerating the wort when you do so.

I meant that the pH is quite a bit lower than expected, which is what I meant to type asking about the measurement mid-mash. Just forgot to type that part apparently. What I meant by can't see the "chemical reactions" was that the expected pH was say 5.32, and the measurement at 30 mins was 5.1. Seemed like all the different "stuff" from the grains didn't quite settle in, as it raises to the expected range by the end of the 60-min mash.

 

[joshesmusica]

Ok, so it turns out that some guy here bought a 25kg (!!) sack of sodium metabisulphite. He's basically sending it around to anybody that wants some if they pay the cost of shipping. So I can get about 200g for about $6. Seems like a good-enough deal, as if my bath is right (25mg/l * 30l per batch = 750mg/batch - 200g/.75g = ~266 batches worth = ~2 cents per batch).

So in other words, I could go almost full-on LoDO, with the exception of fermenting in a keg. Would a second-best option, then, to be able to do a closed transfer post-fermentation to a starsan purged keg with priming it in the keg?

 

[stpug]

Ok, so it turns out that some guy here bought a 25kg (!!) sack of sodium metabisulphite. He's basically sending it around to anybody that wants some if they pay the cost of shipping. So I can get about 200g for about $6. Seems like a good-enough deal, as if my bath is right (25mg/l * 30l per batch = 750mg/batch - 200g/.75g = ~266 batches worth = ~2 cents per batch).

So in other words, I could go almost full-on LoDO, with the exception of fermenting in a keg. Would a second-best option, then, to be able to do a closed transfer post-fermentation to a starsan purged keg with priming it in the keg?

Seems like a very reasonable deal for the SMB. As for fermenter, if you close rack to a purged keg at the tail end of primary fermentation with either a few gravity points left (2-3 for lagers, 4-6 for ales), or with fresh priming sugars, then you should be set.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Has anyone used Vicant before? https://www.abvickers.com/vicant/

Lallemand describes it as "An antioxidant and anti browning agent designed to enhance flavor and colloidal stability in beer. Vicant supplies sources of sulfur dioxide and ascorbate. The active components function in two ways, by scavenging dissolved oxygen and blocking staling reactions. It slows down the formation of off flavors, typically described as paper or cardboard by binding causative carbonyl compounds, particularly trans-2-nonenal."

 

[TexasWine]

So in other words, I could go almost full-on LoDO, with the exception of fermenting in a keg. Would a second-best option, then, to be able to do a closed transfer post-fermentation to a starsan purged keg with priming it in the keg?

No need to ferment in a keg for low DO. As stated, the gold standard is to transfer to final vessel (keg or bottle) with a few gravity points left.

I personally think the second best option is to prime in the primary, allow fermentation to restart, then transfer to the keg. This should provide more protection against oxygen uptake than simply transferring beer with inactive yeast onto a sugar solution.

 

[1MadScientist]

So in other words, I could go almost full-on LoDO, with the exception of fermenting in a keg. Would a second-best option, then, to be able to do a closed transfer post-fermentation to a starsan purged keg with priming it in the keg?

Do you have two kegs? You can ferment in a keg, then pressure transfer to a serving keg. I do it all the time.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Has anyone used Vicant before? https://www.abvickers.com/vicant/

Lallemand describes it as "An antioxidant and anti browning agent designed to enhance flavor and colloidal stability in beer. Vicant supplies sources of sulfur dioxide and ascorbate. The active components function in two ways, by scavenging dissolved oxygen and blocking staling reactions. It slows down the formation of off flavors, typically described as paper or cardboard by binding causative carbonyl compounds, particularly trans-2-nonenal."

I'm interested. Is there an online retailer for this? I did a quick search but found nothing.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I'm interested. Is there an online retailer for this? I did a quick search but found nothing.

The link I posted was the only thing I could find other than it being listed in Lallemand's catalog. Didn't check to see if they sold through their site though. I'm thinking it may possibly only be available for commercial accounts. Granted Brewtan B is only available to commercial accounts in the US but is available to the homebrew market in other countries so who knows.

 

[joshesmusica]

Do you have two kegs? You can ferment in a keg, then pressure transfer to a serving keg. I do it all the time.

Yes, I have exactly two kegs that I like to keep full (or ready to fill) at all times, since beer (alcohol in general) is incredibly expensive here. I'm not willing to go that far for this process yet, and don't really have the resources to purchase more kegs atm.

 

[joshesmusica]

One thing that this will likely force me to kick my butt into getting around to finding a solution for is building a condensate stack of sorts so that I can boil in my SS kettle. But would the brewtan b help against the fact that I've been boiling in an aluminum pot in the winter? Or has anybody found a workaround solution that fights against the use of a copper chiller?

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Has anyone looked into supplements that prevent the formation of LOX-1? Is this sort of the same as an antioxidant?

For example:

"Procyanidins are potent inhibitors of LOX-1: a new player in the French Paradox"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3066543/

Grape See Extract is high in Procyanidins and is readily available.

 

[schematix]

I used Brewtan B for the first time on a LoDO Helles this weekend and it was interesting... still too early for a definite verdict but some notables:

1. The copper IC normally comes out of the kettle bright clean copper new. It came out dull this time. Never seen that before in my life.
2. When i added the BB to the boil with 5 minutes to go i had what appeared to be a second hot break. I was super excited it looked like it was working some magic, but a few minutes later the wort turned hazy as hell.... like NE IPA hazy. Normally after the chill down everything settles out and i have crystal clear wort. Not so this time. Even after a few hours in the cold the wort didn't clear. Hoping its not permanent as it would be a damn shame to ruin a 15G batch like that.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I used Brewtan B for the first time on a LoDO Helles this weekend and it was interesting... still too early for a definite verdict but some notables:

1. The copper IC normally comes out of the kettle bright clean copper new. It came out dull this time. Never seen that before in my life.
2. When i added the BB to the boil with 5 minutes to go i had what appeared to be a second hot break. I was super excited it looked like it was working some magic, but a few minutes later the wort turned hazy as hell.... like NE IPA hazy. Normally after the chill down everything settles out and i have crystal clear wort. Not so this time. Even after a few hours in the cold the wort didn't clear. Hoping its not permanent as it would be a damn shame to ruin a 15G batch like that.

No whirlfloc or Irish moss? Admittedly its been a bit since I read the details on Brewtan B but I remember getting the impression it wasn't a stand alone clarifier. I thought it was more about metallic ions in the wort and something about Fenton reactions.

Interestingly, this Vicant stuff may have its own issues I had forgotten about due to the vitamin c (ascorbate) ..."The ability to donate one or two electrons makes ascorbate an excellent reducing agent and antioxidant. However, in the presence of catalytic metals, ascorbate also has pro-oxidant effects, where the redox-active metal is reduced by ascorbate and then in turn reacts with oxygen, producing superoxide that subsequently dismutes to produce H2O2" http://flipper.diff.org/apprulespathways/pathways/6861

However, together with something like Brewtan the two might accomplish what people are going for.

 

[schematix]

No whirlfloc or Irish moss? Admittedly its been a bit since I read the details on Brewtan B but I remember getting the impression it wasn't a stand alone clarifier. I thought it was more about metallic ions in the wort and something about Fenton reactions.

I use whirlfloc every time, except this one time, and another time when i had too many HBs during a brew day and just forgot. The wort was brilliantly clear until i added the BB to the kettle and kicked on the whirlpool. In hindsight i should have used the whirlfloc, but it is what it is at this point. Fingers crossed it clears.

 

[Bassman2003]

I personally think the second best option is to prime in the primary, allow fermentation to restart, then transfer to the keg. This should provide more protection against oxygen uptake than simply transferring beer with inactive yeast onto a sugar solution.

I am going to try this. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[joshesmusica]

I used Brewtan B for the first time on a LoDO Helles this weekend and it was interesting... still too early for a definite verdict but some notables:

1. The copper IC normally comes out of the kettle bright clean copper new. It came out dull this time. Never seen that before in my life.
2. When i added the BB to the boil with 5 minutes to go i had what appeared to be a second hot break. I was super excited it looked like it was working some magic, but a few minutes later the wort turned hazy as hell.... like NE IPA hazy. Normally after the chill down everything settles out and i have crystal clear wort. Not so this time. Even after a few hours in the cold the wort didn't clear. Hoping its not permanent as it would be a damn shame to ruin a 15G batch like that.

So you've just been using your copper IC this whole time?

 

[schematix]

So you've just been using your copper IC this whole time?

i plead the 5th.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

The recommendations say to use before any finings. I've been using Brewtan at 16-17 minutes, then Irish Moss at 15 minutes, then Wyeast Yeast Nutrient at 10 minutes. All in separate warm slurries.

 

[schematix]

The recommendations say to use before any finings. I've been using Brewtan at 16-17 minutes, then Irish Moss at 15 minutes, then Wyeast Yeast Nutrient at 10 minutes. All in separate warm slurries.

Do you have a link to the recommendations you speak of? I found wildy different instructions when i searched around.

 

[enkamania]

Do you have a link to the recommendations you speak of? I found wildy different instructions when i searched around.

Page 56 of this thread https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=26830.825

 

[stpug]

Do you have a link to the recommendations you speak of? I found wildy different instructions when i searched around.

Page 56 of this thread https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=26830.825

Thanks for finding down that exact page enkamania! I'm going to quote it below just so it's in this thread directly.

edit: moved to post further down

 

[TexasWine]

Where are you folks getting Brewtan B from? A quick Google search didn't turn up anything.

 

[schematix]

Where are you folks getting Brewtan B from? A quick Google search didn't turn up anything.

Airmail from Australia (www.ibrew.com.au) .... turns out with the exchange rate what it is, its actually pretty cheap!

 

[schematix]

Thanks for finding down that exact page enkamania! I'm going to quote it below just so it's in this thread directly.

I came across that thread/dosage information too but it conflicts significantly with everything i've seen from the manufacturer. For one, they don't specify quantity in teaspoons. Also as a general policy, I immediately disregard any advice that involves teaspoons or tablespoon measurements because its going to be wildly variable.