Interesting German Brewing PDF

[techbrau]

+1. And lots of homebrew fads get debunked too. This "German brewing PDF", for example, will be debunked within a couple years as the fraud it is. A couple taste panels by brulosophy or others should do it.

Just brew the beer you like to drink. Nobody is forcing you to brew a certain way.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

What I would encourage anyone to do is take the people that wrote the PDF out of the equation and read the brewing literature for themselves. Then make your own decision based on the science that's out there. FWIW if you wanted to take Master Brewing courses at Siebel you would have to read these books.

 

[schematix]

Don't feed the troll. Reminds me of a guy in another thread who claims to make lagers without any temp control, doesn't own a hydrometer, and uses cascade instead of noble hops in a helles. He can't tell the difference between what he makes and a traditional recipe with traditional process, so everything must be false.

 

[Edelst0ff]

Ultimately we're all after the same thing here. Some stuff will fall in a bit of a grey area but we're working together to do the best we can.

I agree wholeheartedly

 

[Edelst0ff]

So a related question about this process...

General Homebrew Lore says to let the beer stay on the yeast for a while after fermentation is complete to allow the beer to "cleanup". This time varies between a few days post ferm to weeks after. Given that people here are moving ales with gravity points remaining, does that mean that almost all beers (low to moderate abv) can be drinkable in a short amount of time? Is the 2-3 week primary just another homebrew myth?

That's a very long time in primary... many professional breweries knock out a perfectly fine German lager in 2-3 weeks overall. Doing such accelerated schedules requires quite careful monitoring and measurements (equipment most of us don't have).

As a general rule of thumb, lagers are done with primary after 7-10 days (cold, 7-9 Celsius max), then they enter secondary (lager) with some residual extract left.

This has some useful benefits.

Having a bit of active yeast and fermentation still going in secondary is like a protection blanked against oxygen damage. Yeast is a very good oxygen scavenger (antioxidant).

It also carbonates the drink. Why pay for CO2 when you are already making it?

Think of it as bottle conditioning, but in a keg

 

[mabrungard]

Have you tried it? Not that hard really, and shouldn't require any major upgrades.

I think it has merit. However, it takes so little in your process or ingredients to screw this up. That makes it very likely that a brewer without adequate equipment or understanding could come to a conclusion that "it makes no difference". Without the ability to monitor very low DO levels in wort and beer, you may never know where you went wrong...or if you went right and this is a fraud.

I'm still willing to chase this rabbit, though.

 

[techbrau]

I think it has merit. However, it takes so little in your process or ingredients to screw this up. That makes it very likely that a brewer without adequate equipment or understanding could come to a conclusion that "it makes no difference". Without the ability to monitor very low DO levels in wort and beer, you may never know where you went wrong...or if you went right and this is a fraud.

I'm still willing to chase this rabbit, though.

One very simple indicator that you've kept the oxygen level low is the color of the wort. Here is a picture of wort from side-by-side helles mashes taken by Brody over at the GBF on this thread. One is a normal mash and the other is LODO:

Brody was not one of the authors of the paper, but he was one of the earliest adopters who gave it a try, so I'd like to think that he's pretty unbiased.

If you do two side-by-side mashes, or even mini-mashes, and you see this kind of color difference, then you can pretty safely assume that you protected the wort from oxygen even without using a DO meter. The difference in taste of the worts at this point in time is pretty huge too.

Of course, like you say it's very easy to screw up the process down the line and lose a lot of flavor. But if you can prove to yourself that a very real difference exists at the mash/boil stage, I think it takes some mental gymnastics to conclude that such a difference cannot possibly be carried over into the final product.

At that point, I think that most reasonable people who found a huge difference in the wort but little difference in their finished beer would be asking "Where did I drop the ball?" rather than "LODO is a fraud!"

 

[storunner13]

As others have noted recently, the SMB levels suggested are pretty high and lend a large margin of error. The biggest challenge is re-thinking the process and adjusting to the new details to which one must pay attention. I was certainly challenged in my first LoDo brew day with air bubbles in while recirculating and other issues, but it was a learning experience and the wort flavor and color was certainly novel when compared to previous brew days. I would like to compare it to brewing on a new system...which might result in spilled wort, boil overs, missed gravities, or other errors. The difference is the target product. Like with a new system errors in LoDO brewing should still make good beer, but will miss the mark because the process is aiming for something else.

 

[55x11]

One very simple indicator that you've kept the oxygen level low is the color of the wort. Here is a picture of wort from side-by-side helles mashes taken by Brody over at the GBF on this thread. One is a normal mash and the other is LODO:

Brody was not one of the authors of the paper, but he was one of the earliest adopters who gave it a try, so I'd like to think that he's pretty unbiased.

If you do two side-by-side mashes, or even mini-mashes, and you see this kind of color difference, then you can pretty safely assume that you protected the wort from oxygen even without using a DO meter. The difference in taste of the worts at this point in time is pretty huge too.

Of course, like you say it's very easy to screw up the process down the line and lose a lot of flavor. But if you can prove to yourself that a very real difference exists at the mash/boil stage, I think it takes some mental gymnastics to conclude that such a difference cannot possibly be carried over into the final product.

At that point, I think that most reasonable people who found a huge difference in the wort but little difference in their finished beer would be asking "Where did I drop the ball?" rather than "LODO is a fraud!"

the color of the wort: I routinely - lately, always - split my batches and they end up very different in color (from the same batch of beer). Color differences much bigger than you are showing here. I think mostly dependent on how much hot break material I got in. It tends to even out almost completely by the time the batches are fermented.

So I don't think the color of the wort by itself is a clear indicator of oxygen dissolved in the wort.

I am not saying that the differences you are showing are not due to oxygen - just that there are so many parameters that can influence color that it's very difficult to say what they are due to. My 1st runnings are always different color from 2nd runnings, and the beginning of 1st running is different color than the middle or the end of it. From the same batch.


(below is an example from the latest 11G batch that is spit between 6G Fermonster, and two 2.5G better-bottles. The differences are striking. I try to even out, by filling the wort from the kettle into one fermenter a bit, then into another, but the trubby one (the one that gets a bit more trub than the other ones) is lighter in this case.)

 

[techbrau]

the color of the wort: I routinely - lately, always - split my batches and they end up very different in color (from the same batch of beer). Color differences much bigger than you are showing here. I think mostly dependent on how much hot break material I got in. It tends to even out almost completely by the time the batches are fermented.

So I don't think the color of the wort by itself is a clear indicator of oxygen dissolved in the wort.

(below is an example from the latest 11G batch that is spit between 6G Fermonster, and two 2.5G better-bottles. The differences are striking. I try to even out, by filling the wort from the kettle into one fermenter a bit, then into another, but the trubby one (the one that gets a bit more trub than the other ones) is lighter in this case.)

What about the color difference of two side by side mashes? There's no break material there. If I had two side by side batches of wort or beer that had dramatically different colors AND flavors, I'm the kind of person who asks "Why?" But that's just my personality.

At this point, I am tempted to just mail you a single campden tablet in an envelope so you can try the mini mash for yourself

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=301

 

[schematix]

the color of the wort: I routinely - lately, always - split my batches and they end up very different in color (from the same batch of beer). Color differences much bigger than you are showing here. I think mostly dependent on how much hot break material I got in. It tends to even out almost completely by the time the batches are fermented.

So I don't think the color of the wort by itself is a clear indicator of oxygen dissolved in the wort.

I am not saying that the differences you are showing are not due to oxygen - just that there are so many parameters that can influence color that it's very difficult to say what they are due to. My 1st runnings are always different color from 2nd runnings, and the beginning of 1st running is different color than the middle or the end of it. From the same batch.


(below is an example from the latest 11G batch that is spit between 6G Fermonster, and two 2.5G better-bottles. The differences are striking. I try to even out, by filling the wort from the kettle into one fermenter a bit, then into another, but the trubby one (the one that gets a bit more trub than the other ones) is lighter in this case.)

You have a striking amount of trub in your ferms. Of course having that much 'stuff' floating around is going to cause a different in color - it's going to be darker! As you say, in the end its the same.

I take my LoDO wort sample from the BK to avoid getting an instantaneous reading, and instead an average of all runnings.

I can confirm in both of my LoDO batches my color was lower than expected. My Helles was straw yellow instead of what i would call regular yellow, and my Marzen was copper instead of amber. For what it's worth, my unscientific eye-ball approach thinks it's about 2L lighter.

 

[55x11]

What about the color difference of two side by side mashes? There's no break material there. If I had two side by side batches of wort or beer that had dramatically different colors AND flavors, I'm the kind of person who asks "Why?" But that's just my personality.

At this point, I am tempted to just mail you a single campden tablet in an envelope so you can try the mini mash for yourself

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=301

I see differences in color in early runnings vs. late runnings. Maybe not for something light like helles but definitely for other beers.

I have campden tablets, I will try your techniques. But mini-mashes don't work for me - am I supposed to do mini-ferment afterwards? and I want to do it "right" - not just look at the color of the mash, and make conclusions that lighter mash color is definitely going to make a more superior beer. I need to go all the way to the final product, let yeast clean it up and see if one can detect a statistically meaningful difference.

I want to see if I and others can tell the difference in taste of the final product - not intermediates. I bet you anything right now the two beers I have a photo of above will come out VERY similar in color in the end.

 

[SpeedYellow]

One very simple indicator that you've kept the oxygen level low is the color of the wort. Here is a picture of wort from side-by-side helles mashes taken by Brody over at the GBF on this thread. One is a normal mash and the other is LODO:

That's interesting and all, but so what? Indeed the major issue never addressed in that PDF is "does this affect final beer flavor, and if so, is it a bad effect?" One might argue that a couple simple steps to remove most of the O2 results in beer just as good as the full-blown LODO, and best I can tell, you'd have no rebuttal because nobody has done triangle tests.

Without triangle testing, the obsession with zero-O2 is nothing but hypothesis. Just to be clear, I'm not saying O2 is good. I'm saying nobody knows the point where flavor gets impacted or where the point of diminishing returns lies.

 

[55x11]

You have a striking amount of trub in your ferms. Of course having that much 'stuff' floating around is going to cause a different in color - it's going to be darker! As you say, in the end its the same.

I take my LoDO wort sample from the BK to avoid getting an instantaneous reading, and instead an average of all runnings.

I can confirm in both of my LoDO batches my color was lower than expected. My Helles was straw yellow instead of what i would call regular yellow, and my Marzen was copper instead of amber. For what it's worth, my unscientific eye-ball approach thinks it's about 2L lighter.

actually the stuff with more trub is much lighter in this case.

This is perhaps an extreme example of heavily hopped IPA with plenty of yeast activity already and decent amount of trub, but my point is very simple - you can't use color as indication of oxygen content.

You need DO meter to tell oxygen level

 

[schematix]

Without triangle testing, the obsession with zero-O2 is nothing but hypothesis. Just to be clear, I'm not saying O2 is good. I'm saying nobody knows the point where flavor gets impacted or where the point of diminishing returns lies.

The flavor difference is so unique and obvious there is is no need for a triangle test. It's night and day.

Now if you put a panel together to say which do you prefer, sample A or sample B, i'd bet it wouldn't be as decisive.

 

[techbrau]

But mini-mashes don't work for me - am I supposed to do mini-ferment afterwards? and I want to do it "right" - not just look at the color of the mash, and make conclusions that lighter mash color is definitely going to make a more superior beer. I need to go all the way to the final product, let yeast clean it up and see if one can detect a statistically meaningful difference.

I want to see if I and others can tell the difference in taste of the final product - not intermediates. I bet you anything right now the two beers I have a photo of above will come out VERY similar in color in the end.

You shouldn't just look at the wort color. You need to TASTE the mini-mash wort. I already addressed your other concerns so I'm just going to quote myself:

Of course, like you say it's very easy to screw up the process down the line and lose a lot of flavor. But if you can prove to yourself that a very real difference exists at the mash/boil stage, I think it takes some mental gymnastics to conclude that such a difference cannot possibly be carried over into the final product.

At that point, I think that most reasonable people who found a huge difference in the wort but little difference in their finished beer would be asking "Where did I drop the ball?" rather than "LODO is a fraud!"

If you execute the rest of the process properly, then you will taste the difference in the final beer.

You need DO meter to tell oxygen level

A DO meter will only tell you the instantaneous dissolved oxygen concentration. It will not tell you the degree of oxidative damage that has already taken place. As oxygen reacts with malt and hop compounds via polyphenol oxidase, peroxidase, lipoxygenase, Fenton-capable metals, etc. it no longer exists as DO. That said, new oxygen is constantly diffusing in from the atmosphere.

In any case, I'll wait for you to try the mini mash before typing out any more long replies.

 

[55x11]

You shouldn't just look at the wort color. You need to TASTE the mini-mash wort. I already addressed your other concerns so I'm just going to quote myself:



If you execute the rest of the process properly, then you will taste the difference in the final beer.



A DO meter will only tell you the instantaneous dissolved oxygen concentration. It will not tell you the degree of oxidative damage that has already taken place. As oxygen reacts with malt and hop compounds via polyphenol oxidase, peroxidase, lipoxygenase, Fenton-capable metals, etc. it no longer exists as DO. That said, new oxygen is constantly diffusing in from the atmosphere.

In any case, I'll wait for you to try the mini mash before typing out any more long replies.

I promise I will try a full sized low-DO (on the hot side) experiment. But I am sorry, tasting the wort has never been my thing.

I do not accept a premise that a better tasting wort after mash or after boil will necessarily create a better tasting beer (using the same yeast and same fermentation condition). Wort always has a bit of a vomit appearance/smell/taste to me, so perhaps I am biased. But yet the beer it makes is always delicious.

There is boiling and then the yeast cleans up the junk and creates many of the flavors.

One such example is trub. You cannot tell me trub sample with all coagulated proteins doesn't taste terrible - much worse than a "clean" wort without any trub. Trub is like the worst milkshake imaginable, I would call it a "hoppy fish intestines" shake.

And yet in my own experience, getting more trub into a fermenter actually produces a beer that tastes, smells and looks better. How is that possible if the wort looks and tastes so horrible?

 

[Magnus314]

Why are we still hearing this argument?

It's been months since this was posted. If you don't want to brew low DO, cool. Why are you posting on this thread?

 

[techbrau]

Wort always has a bit of a vomit appearance/smell/taste to me, so perhaps I am biased.

Do raw kernels of Pilsner malt taste like vomit? No. But just a few minutes later, the wort from the mash somehow takes on that flavor.

I know what you're talking about, and what I'm trying to tell you is that LODO wort doesn't taste like vomit. It tastes like malt-o-meal cereal with honey and vanilla. The "vomit" flavor is HSA.

Look, I can tell you really just want to argue. That's not going to accomplish anything, because having developed the Lodo method over nearly a year of trial and error and brewed dozens of Lodo batches I have a pretty good idea of the difference that exists. You haven't tried a Lodo beer, and you haven't even done the mini mash test, so there is literally nothing you can say that will change my mind. I don't think there's anything I can say to change your mind either, so just come back after you've tried the method for yourself.

 

[Bilsch]

In addition to the lighter color and glorious cereal flavors, I've also noticed lodo process produces much less hot break, typically 1/4 the amount, then I've ever experienced in many years of hido brewing.

 

[Magnus314]

I get less hot break, but more and denser foam on top of the kettle.

Do you guys skim that off?

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I do

 

[Edelst0ff]

Do. Some outfits use DE filters or centrifuges to remove it (flotation tanks are another option... there's probably more).

 

[storunner13]

I usually skim too, but with most German recipes calling for FWH, I have been skimming less, due to the challenge of avoiding skimming off too much hop matter.

 

[Edelst0ff]

You don't have to FWH

If you do and can't skim, removing the trub and old yeast on day 3-4 in fermentation is a possibility.

I regularly do this.

 

[popquizkid]

Has anyone tried this with a mash / batch sparge in a cooler? I am wondering how much efficiency is negatively impacted if you fill the water from the bottom and do not stir the grain / water at dough in (and also when adding sparge water).

 

[Hanglow]

If you underlet you need minimal stirring anyway, so I doubt it will be affected much if at all. I always suggest people underlet now since I started doing it a number of batches ago; there's less dust, no dough balls and little stirring needed compared to pouring the grist into the water

 

[storunner13]

I have had a different experience with dough balls--I get lots of dough balls now that I underlet. I break them up with a giant whisk (RIP ancient mash paddle).

It could be a consequence of malt conditioning or the crush from my mill.

 

[stpug]

Has anyone tried this with a mash / batch sparge in a cooler? I am wondering how much efficiency is negatively impacted if you fill the water from the bottom and do not stir the grain / water at dough in (and also when adding sparge water).

Underletting the MLT does not result in any lost efficiency, in and of itself.

You still stir the grain unless you are recirculating. Stirring is needed when no recirculation is implemented; no need to be heavy handed - just move the grain around in the water a bit is good enough. Failure to do one of those things will result in significant loss of sugars. Performing a batch sparge may help alleviate some of that loss, but to no great degree, AND you increase your potential for oxygen pickup. Additionally, traditional batch sparging using single/double sparges is a poor method to utilize for low O2 brewing due to the simple fact that when you drain the grainbed to collect your first runnings you replace the space the water/wort was occupying with _____ (fill in the blank). No sparge is a much better method if your cooler can hold it.

At least, this has been my experience with low O2 brewing. Oh yeah, and targeting a 40-50mg/l NaMeta concentration with no sparge brewing is an ideal place to start unless you're splishy splashy.

 

[saltymirv]

Hey guys, newbie (to LoDo) here, wanting to give it a try. The only thing is my setup has a copper chiller. The pdf states that putting copper in will start Fenton-like reaction (radical oxidation). Fenton reactions seem to require hydrogen peroxide, of which there can't be all that much in the wort. Couldn't this be combated by adding another dose of campden before putting the chiller in? Or would it be better in my case to put the lid on the pot and chill it in the bath tub? That method takes forever to chill and IMO seems like it would increase the chance of oxidation.

I also do no sparge BIAB, which seems like a good platform to try LoDo, but the "squeezing the bag" part would definitely introduce oxygen and splashing. Should I just skip the squeeze part and suffer a little bit on efficiency?