Interesting German Brewing PDF

[TheHairyHop]

Do you have a link for that?

here is Scott's post about fermentation interaction

http://scottjanish.com/examination-...s-for-achieving-maximum-hop-aroma-and-flavor/

and his recipe that used steeped Columbus with no hint of it in the final product. I guess perhaps it could be a fluke, but Columbus does have a specific flavor that is easily picked up

http://scottjanish.com/hybrid-lager-new-england-oat-session-ipa/

here is the Trillium post (#5) that says to save all the galaxy for the dry hop. which would mean the Columbus goes in the boil/steep. this is a bit of a tip off to me, because Columbus is particular heavy on oils, and perhaps the pre-fermentation use is simply for biotransformation/antioxidant properties

https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/anyone-have-a-congress-st-clone-recipe.267947/

I believe we should start our own thread at this point haha

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

here is Scott's post about fermentation interaction

http://scottjanish.com/examination-...s-for-achieving-maximum-hop-aroma-and-flavor/

and his recipe that used steeped Columbus with no hint of it in the final product. I guess perhaps it could be a fluke, but Columbus does have a specific flavor that is easily picked up

http://scottjanish.com/hybrid-lager-new-england-oat-session-ipa/

here is the Trillium post (#5) that says to save all the galaxy for the dry hop. which would mean the Columbus goes in the boil/steep. this is a bit of a tip off to me, because Columbus is particular heavy on oils, and perhaps the pre-fermentation use is simply for biotransformation/antioxidant properties

https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/anyone-have-a-congress-st-clone-recipe.267947/

I believe we should start our own thread at this point haha

Thanks for that, Ill read up on it.

Yea, we probably should start a new one. However I think using hops (and whatever else) as antioxidants is relevant to the issue of the OP.

I might try some cinnamon zeylanicum in the mash next time. The 1/2 tsp per 5 gallons that Charlie uses is a pretty low amount. 1 tsp cinnamon = 2.8 grams, so a 2% solution is about 0.38 grams. The 1/2 tsp is 1.4 grams. I do 3.25 gal batches so I'll probably do 1/4 tsp, or 0.7 grams.

 

[55x11]

I think there's more at play than just co2 purity.

Every time you attach your grey gas QD to the keg post, a pocket of air gets trapped by the o ring and forced into the keg.

The flexible plastic gas lines are also oxygen permeable. It doesn't happen fast, but they have a lot of surface area and 4+ weeks is ample opportunity for a couple milligrams worth of atmospheric oxygen to diffuse, which is all it takes to damage the beer.

I have 4 AEB kegs that I bought brand new, but I will probably be going back to bottling soon.

the QD pocket of air is minuscule - we are talking about maybe 10 microLiters of air trapped there.

Plastic gas lines - most are made from polyethelene. It comes in different densities, which may vary a bit in oxygen permeability (HDPE, LDPE etc.)

Oxygen permeability coefficient for polyethylene is 4E-16 (in SI units of moles per meter per second per Pa).

See, for example:
http://www.uwm.edu.pl/wnt/technicalsc/tech_15_2/B11.pdf
or http://www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/101311.pdf

Let's assume beer line is a cylinder, with diameter 5/16" (8mm or so), length of 1m, and thickness of, say, 2.5mm (I personally feel it's thicker, probably more like 4mm).

So we have total surface area of 3.14*8mm*1m=25E-3 m^3. And thickness of 25E-4m.

Partial pressure difference of 0.2*E5 Pa (since we care about oxygen, it's about 20% of atm. pressure, which is 10^5 Pa).

Plug it into Fick's law and we get transport of Q=4E-16*0.2E5*25E-3/25E-4=0.8E-11 moles per second.

In a year, or 3E7 seconds, one would adsorb 0.8E-11*3E7=2.4E-4 moles of oxygen, and since 1 mole of oxygen is 32 grams, we would get 7.6 milligrams of oxygen (about 5mL) diffused through the 2.5mm polyethylene tubing over 1 year period.

For 20L (5 Gallon) keg containing 20kg of beer, this represents 7.6E-3/2E4=3E-7 or 0.3 ppm increase in oxygen concentration. Per year.

According to sources cited earlier in this thread, about a factor of 2 better than the leak through the best oxygen reducing bottle caps available. I guess everything leaks at parts per billion per day rate.

Someone double-check the math, but unless you are aging your Helles for a year or more (and yeast cannot scavange a slow 0.5mL per month, or .02ppm per month oxygen uptake), I don't think this leaking through PE tubing is at the top of the list to worry about for your average home brewer.

 

[schematix]

Something else to consider too is that while O2 does diffuse through the beer line tubing, it then has to makes its way down into the keg. If you semi-regularly pull a glass, the most oxidized beer will be flushed out.

So moral of the story, for fresher beer, drink frequently.

and

-Don't leave gas/beer lines connected to kegs that aren't in use
-Reconnect the gas lines as infrequently as possible since there is some atmosphereic air trapped (although not much)

 

[TexasWine]

the QD pocket of air is minuscule - we are talking about maybe 10 microLiters of air trapped there.

Plastic gas lines - most are made from polyethelene. It comes in different densities, which may vary a bit in oxygen permeability (HDPE, LDPE etc.)

Oxygen permeability coefficient for polyethylene is 4E-16 (in SI units of moles per meter per second per Pa).

See, for example:
http://www.uwm.edu.pl/wnt/technicalsc/tech_15_2/B11.pdf
or http://www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/101311.pdf

Let's assume beer line is a cylinder, with diameter 5/16" (8mm or so), length of 1m, and thickness of, say, 2.5mm (I personally feel it's thicker, probably more like 4mm).

.......

For 20L (5 Gallon) keg containing 20kg of beer, this represents 7.6E-3/2E4=3E-7 or 0.3 ppm increase in oxygen concentration. Per year.

Not to be nit picking, but a 1 meter length of beer line is pretty short. I would say at least 2 meters, and often times 3 meters (~10 feet). That'd bring it up to 0.9 ppm increase per year, right?

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

here is Scott's post about fermentation interaction



http://scottjanish.com/examination-...s-for-achieving-maximum-hop-aroma-and-flavor/



and his recipe that used steeped Columbus with no hint of it in the final product. I guess perhaps it could be a fluke, but Columbus does have a specific flavor that is easily picked up



http://scottjanish.com/hybrid-lager-new-england-oat-session-ipa/



here is the Trillium post (#5) that says to save all the galaxy for the dry hop. which would mean the Columbus goes in the boil/steep. this is a bit of a tip off to me, because Columbus is particular heavy on oils, and perhaps the pre-fermentation use is simply for biotransformation/antioxidant properties



https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/anyone-have-a-congress-st-clone-recipe.267947/



I believe we should start our own thread at this point haha

Interesting stuff thanks for posting!

Not to be nit picking, but a 1 meter length of beer line is pretty short. I would say at least 2 meters, and often times 3 meters (~10 feet). That'd bring it up to 0.9 ppm increase per year, right?

Good point. Which by the numbers could make bottles appear better. The nice catch with the lines though is people generally don't leave their kegs hooked up for a year straight.

 

[storunner13]

I'll add some of my notes to the thread. My first LoDO brewday was on July 31. No Sparge, 100mg/L SMB. I had some dough balls through the underletting and missed my efficiency (4.75 gallons @ 1.044 instead of 5.5 gallons @ 1.045. However, everything else went as planned. Yeast was WLP860. Racked to spunden with ~6 gravity points left. It still hasn't quite hit EVG after 5 weeks, but I think it's still working it's way down. I'm thinking my fermentation schedule needs to be tweaked. Sulfur was pretty unbearable at 3 weeks and I was not optimistic. However, earlier this week I took another sample and the sulfur was almost gone.

3 weeks ago I brewed 4 LoDO lagers in a weekend in preparation for a (late) Oktoberfest party. A pilsner and schwartzbier were fermented with WLP802 and a dunkel and festbier were femented with WLP860. All were done with 100mg/L in the mash and sparged with 25mg/L. No doughballs this time (got myself a giant whisk) and LoDO flavor appeared to be maintained through the sparge. However, I had some issues with the 802 yeast--there was a long lag time of 3 days. The yeast was on the 3rd generation, but was propagated with large recent starter. Not only did it have a long lag time, but fermentation is proceeding very slowly. Currently we are at 66% attenuation 19 days after pitching. EVG was measured at 84%. Has anyone had issues with long lag times/fermentation times? I don't think this is a result of LoDO or a cold ferment, and it's probably just an anomaly. I am hesitant to think that it is the yeast generation as I have taken other lager strains to 6 generations without any perceived issues.

The festbier and dunkel have been racked to spunden, and are on their way to tasting good. A little less sulfur in these than in the Helles, so I'm certainly optimistic.

 

[Bilsch]

the QD pocket of air is minuscule - we are talking about maybe 10 microLiters of air trapped there.

Technically nitpicking as well.. but the rough calculations of pocket dimension on ball lock QD from the moment of o-ring contact to locked position is 8.5mm with a diameter of 16.4mm gives a volume of 1795cu/ml (microliter) or ~1.8ml. So given the oxygen content of air that works out 0.377ml of oxygen driven into the keg per gas line attachment.

No idea if this is a meaningful amount or not.

 

[techbrau]

I just measured this myself by attaching a picnic tap to my keg and then slowly draining a little beer out to move the air pocket into the tube. You can visually see the air pocket getting in there.

I did a rough volume calculation and pegged it at 2 ml.

0.377 ml of oxygen weighs 0.54 mg, so into 20 liters of beer that's 0.027 ppm instantly added. For my 3 gallon batches, that's 0.045 ppm. All it takes is me to connect the QD twice and I've added 0.1 ppm DO to the whole batch.

 

[Bilsch]

This very issue has worried me since I don't have a manifold, but instead connect the gas line occasionally as pressure of the kegs fall during serving.

I think I might start employing Jdebonth's idea of cracking the valve mechanism cap so that a flow of flushing gas leaks out while seating the QD then tightening the cap.

Might be a good gizmo for some beer goodies manufacturer to make.. a gas QD with bleed valve built in.

 

[55x11]

Technically nitpicking as well.. but the rough calculations of pocket dimension on ball lock QD from the moment of o-ring contact to locked position is 8.5mm with a diameter of 16.4mm gives a volume of 1795cu/ml (microliter) or ~1.8ml. So given the oxygen content of air that works out 0.377ml of oxygen driven into the keg per gas line attachment.

No idea if this is a meaningful amount or not.

You assume all of that QD volume makes it into keg, and that the seal is instantaneous, and happens the moment you put QD over poppet (before sliding it over and securing). I would argue thats not the case, and that the "hermetic" seal at the o-ring is actually not made properly until QD is all the way down on the post. See this page to help visualize what I am talking about:
http://www.draft-beer-made-easy.com/corneliuskegvalves.html

In other words - most of that 1.8mL of air will be pushed out by the process of you pressing on the post, and/or by the high pressure of CO2 coming out of the line and/or the keg post.

One could test it by removing the poppet from QD, closing off the gas connect and see if you can still put it on the post - I bet you can do it easily, but it if sealed off 1.8mL of air instantly, you wouldn't be able to do that.

Another way of arguing this - if that 1.8mL air had nowhere to go, what happens every time you put the liquid QD on - you would see a sizable pocket of air in liquid line.

One can and perhaps should do more experiments to verify this (for example putting QD onto the post under the water and watching to see if there are any bubbles from that pocket of air escaping out), but I would estimate the air trapped between post and pressed-on QD that has potential to make it into the keg is much smaller, maybe 0.05-0.10 mL?

PS: just read techbrau's experiment above. Hmm. I don't seem to recall any large air bubbles in my beer lines from disconnecting and reconnecting the QD, but I will do this experiment and check tonight.

 

[Bilsch]

You assume all of that QD volume makes it into keg, and that the seal is instantaneous, and happens the moment you put QD over poppet (before sliding it over and securing)

Sorry to disagree but I didn't assume the whole QD internal volume in the calculations. I stated that the measurement was taken from when the o-ring makes contact with the inner sealing surface until when the ball lock engages. The inside of the QD is not a taper and the O-ring makes a positive seal well before the lock is in position. Compression of that internal volume does take place and the air has no where else to go but into the keg or the line and then into the keg upon pressurization. If you take a spare QD, a post and a micrometer like I did and measure you will see the numbers are pretty accurate.

The real question is though, does this air have a meaningful effect on the beer. That is what I would like to figure out.

 

[Jwin]

*At the risk if sounding cheeky*
Will someone just submerge a bone dry keg in UV dye and put a QD on it already?
Also, if it forces air in the dip tube/beer line who cares? It comes out in the next pour when the beer meets a ton of air anyway.
The only exception to this I can see is when we do a "closed" transfer with unpurged lines, at which point we probably totally ruined our beer forever.
But seriously, thanks to everyone for reporting in thier experiences and process alterations thus far.

Maybe a poppet with a higher domed top/button would fix the hypothetical problem, allowing co2 to purge the QD deadspace before fully sealing.

 

[Edelst0ff]

All transfers are from below. Between mash tun and boil kettle (for decoctions), and into the sparge tun.

Often the tuns are purged with inert gas or steam.

The data regarding oxygen intake in various stages of the brewing process was published by Prof. Narziss a long time ago and there is no need for an pseudo-experiment conducted by amateurs.

I trust the TU-Munich and Wiley as publisher.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

All transfers are from below. Between mash tun and boil kettle (for decoctions), and into the sparge tun.



Often the tuns are purged with inert gas or steam.



The data regarding oxygen intake in various stages of the brewing process was published by Prof. Narziss a long time ago and there is no need for an pseudo-experiment conducted by amateurs.



I trust the TU-Munich and Wiley as publisher.

It took like 60+ pages for this thread to settle into something productive for everyone. I've honestly seen more work done in this thread for LODO ales than on the other forum. So coming in here and calling everyone a bunch of amateurs is just stirring the pot and contributes nothing helpful. I respect Narziss but he was working in a world class brewhouse not screwing with soda kegs. The situation is a bit different as we've all concluded. If you have the particular info that you think covers and explains all this just post it up instead of being a dick. Otherwise take the negativity somewhere else.

 

[55x11]

Technically nitpicking as well.. but the rough calculations of pocket dimension on ball lock QD from the moment of o-ring contact to locked position is 8.5mm with a diameter of 16.4mm gives a volume of 1795cu/ml (microliter) or ~1.8ml. So given the oxygen content of air that works out 0.377ml of oxygen driven into the keg per gas line attachment.

No idea if this is a meaningful amount or not.

I was probably under-estimating, but I think you are over-estimating the volume. I would now estimate the volume of air that gets inside during QD connection as about 0.2 mL. I think the uncertainty depends on when the seal is actually made, it's hard to pin down exactly.

It could be less than my 0.2mL estimate if the QD is still not completely sealed while one of the poppets is already slightly depressed - this means the volume would be purged by CO2, either from the keg or from the CO2 tank.

What I did is made a closed system by sealing off the QD disconnect and putting a small balloon on the carbacap end. I could inflate the balloon with CO2 and make sure it's a well sealed system.

Then I deflated the balloon completely and connected QD, and watched a small amount of air getting in. So it's like a mini pump. Repeated experiments of connecting and disconnecting make me believe the amount of air going in is a small fraction of 1cm^3 - maybe 1/10th of that, but perhaps as high as 1/5th of that volume.

I also did this experiment with a carbacap attached to a bottle of water, with the carbacap barb just below the water surface and watching the bubble form during reconnecting of the QD. It's a tiny bubble, (and often I can't even produce it after multiple connects), maybe 3-4mm or so in size (diameter), definitely not 10mm diameter, which would give you a volume of 0.5mL.

This is for ball-locks. Not sure if the effect is the same for pin locks.

 

[55x11]

Maybe a poppet with a higher domed top/button would fix the hypothetical problem, allowing co2 to purge the QD deadspace before fully sealing.

this is a good suggestion - one can engineer a longer poppet in QD that would flush the space with CO2 prior to seal being made.

 

[Edelst0ff]

It took like 60+ pages for this thread to settle into something productive for everyone. I've honestly seen more work done in this thread for LODO ales than on the other forum. So coming in here and calling everyone a bunch of amateurs is just stirring the pot and contributes nothing helpful. I respect Narziss but he was working in a world class brewhouse not screwing with soda kegs. The situation is a bit different as we've all concluded. If you have the particular info that you think covers and explains all this just post it up instead of being a dick. Otherwise take the negativity somewhere else.

Let's take a deep breather.

To clarify, I use the word amateur to it's primary definition of 'Engaging or engaged in without payment; non-professional' not as ineptitude. Amateurs, hobbyists, home-brewers are all interchangeable meanings and they illustrate our capabilities very well.

The truth is that as amateurs we have very limited means to do ANY meaningful experiment at all since the equipment necessary would far exceed what we can reasonably be expected to spend.

Yet, there seems to be a fashion of asking people for experiments and accurate data on a very complex topic indeed. Unless the person happens to be working professionally in the related field, it's impossible to even afford the equipment necessary.

If you happen to object to my use of the word, then I apologise to you.

However, it would be more productive to initially double-check what somebody meant, to rule out any possible mis-understandings. Especially when the other person is not a native speaker and from overseas.

It would make the interaction more courteous and thus pleasurable.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I'm chill I'm just trying to keep this thread going forward now that everyone is playing nice in the sandbox. If you weren't trying to be snarky then I'm sorry I took it that way. Given this threads history it seemed like someone trying to stir the pot again. I do recognize your handle from the other board and your blog but I don't know how closely you've followed this thread.
Moving passed that, some stuff is obviously beyond our means of testing but I don't think everything discussed here is above everyone's head either. I also think the fact that people are actually asking these sorts of questions and looking for legit answers is a good thing in my opinion. It's the same thing all the GBF guys are doing just in a different place. Some of you taking part on both boards. Ultimately we're all after the same thing here. Some stuff will fall in a bit of a grey area but we're working together to do the best we can.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

So a related question about this process...

General Homebrew Lore says to let the beer stay on the yeast for a while after fermentation is complete to allow the beer to "cleanup". This time varies between a few days post ferm to weeks after. Given that people here are moving ales with gravity points remaining, does that mean that almost all beers (low to moderate abv) can be drinkable in a short amount of time? Is the 2-3 week primary just another homebrew myth?

 

[schematix]

So a related question about this process...

General Homebrew Lore says to let the beer stay on the yeast for a while after fermentation is complete to allow the beer to "cleanup". This time varies between a few days post ferm to weeks after. Given that people here are moving ales with gravity points remaining, does that mean that almost all beers (low to moderate abv) can be drinkable in a short amount of time? Is the 2-3 week primary just another homebrew myth?

In my experience it still takes another couple weeks after racked to carbonate and just overall taste cleaner. Drinkable in 3 weeks is easily achievable for a moderate gravity ale.

 

[schematix]

Going to rename my latest LoDO to "FML Marzen"

Brewed LoDO (low alcohol too, oops) Marzen last Saturday 9/3. OG came in at 11 P. Gravity was 7 P on 9/9 and 5.8 P on 9/11 (approx 48 hours ago).

FFT with bread yeast finished at 2P (so probably 2.5-3 P with the lager yeast).

The wrench in my plans is that I now have to travel the rest of the week.

Is the better plan:
A. Wait until Friday to transfer to serving keg. FG will likely be reached, or damn close, probably not enough to fully carb.
B. Transfer tonight, probably sitting around 5 P? Obviously this is a few points above target.
C. Plan A, but pop the lid on the receiving keg and add priming sugar solution first. LoDO process violated. Pigs fly and the sky falls.

Opinions?

 

[techbrau]

Plan C. It's not violating LODO because you are restarting fermentation with the priming sugar.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Here has been my thinking lately...

Follow all the regular procedures but let the beer ferment out. After filling the keg then pop the lid and add the priming sugar, seal and purge at 30 psi. That gives the lowest O2 levels possible for the yeast to scavenge during priming. If it works anywhere near the same speed as treating mash water then the levels shouldn't ever get that high before the yeast are able to scavenge everything. Again though this is just my thinking.

 

[storunner13]

Is the 2-3 week primary just another homebrew myth?

Yes and no. Myth, because like many homebrew methods, the process is cut and dried for easy understanding and applications. The details behind the suggested process are left out.

If you have a good system (great yeast health, temp maintenance, repeatable fermentation process), you can minimize the fermentation byproducts that need cleanup, and through repetition know how much time is needed in primary. Additional (cold) time after packaging will likely beneficial, but if EVG is reached and unfavorable byproducts are minimized, there is no need for additional time in primary. With the variables that can exist between batches for homebrewers, additional time in primary outweighs the potential negatives from packaging early. However, when working with not-quite-sealed systems, minimizing the time after primary fermentation is complete means less potential O2 pickup over time (bad for all beer, LoDO or not). It's one reason why racking to the serving vessel before fermentation is complete (spunding) is a big part of the LoDO process outline.

 

[schematix]

After adding the priming sugar do you think i should continue to hold the beer around 50F?

 

[techbrau]

Yes and no. Myth, because like many homebrew methods, the process is cut and dried for easy understanding and applications. The details behind the suggested process are left out.

That's a really great way of summarizing it, and it explains a lot of the "debunked" homebrew dogma that actually had its roots in good ideas.

If you read any professional German brewing book, what they call "secondary fermentation" is exactly what we outline in our pdf: racking to a closed vessel while the yeast is STILL ACTIVE and with remaining sugar. The purpose of the secondary is to all at once provide natural carbonation, prevent oxidation, reduce any remaining VDKs, and avoid autolysis. I can say from personal experience that autolysis does happen if you try to carbonate on top of too much sedimented yeast and let it sit for more than a couple weeks.

Somehow along the way, homebrewers decided that "secondary fermentation" meant racking fully fermented beer to a poorly sealed, non-oxygen-purged vessel and letting it sit for a while. This doesn't accomplish anything besides oxidizing the beer and maybe contaminating it too. But you can see how the bad idea was born out of the misunderstanding of a very good idea.

I see the "HSA is a myth" fallacy in much the same way.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Looking back, the DVD that came with my first brewkit from Midwest (2004ish) is laughable.

 

[SpeedYellow]

That's a really great way of summarizing it, and it explains a lot of the "debunked" homebrew dogma that actually had its roots in good ideas.

+1. And lots of homebrew fads get debunked too. This "German brewing PDF", for example, will be debunked within a couple years as the fraud it is. A couple taste panels by brulosophy or others should do it.

 

[TexasWine]

+1. And lots of homebrew fads get debunked too. This "German brewing PDF", for example, will be debunked within a couple years as the fraud it is. A couple taste panels by brulosophy or others should do it.

Say what you want, but I've noticed a positive difference in my beers brewed trying to follow this method.

Have you tried it? Not that hard really, and shouldn't require any major upgrades.