Interesting German Brewing PDF

[KeyWestBrewing]

I've naturally carbed kegs by just adding a necessary amount of DME wort to the keg

I've mentioned this before but never really got an answer. Maybe I'm being hard headed but I'm still not getting why keg priming couldn't be a perfectly viable alternative to spunding. If the same concept is working to deoxygenate people's mash water why wouldn't it work on a keg?

 

[TexasWine]

I've mentioned this before but never really got an answer. Maybe I'm being hard headed but I'm still not getting why keg priming couldn't be a perfectly viable alternative to spunding. If the same concept is working to deoxygenate people's mash water why wouldn't it work on a keg?

Seems reasonable to me.

One thing I wonder, is the lag time for the yeast to start chewing on priming sugar long enough for oxygen to cause any damage?

 

[techbrau]

I've mentioned this before but never really got an answer. Maybe I'm being hard headed but I'm still not getting why keg priming couldn't be a perfectly viable alternative to spunding. If the same concept is working to deoxygenate people's mash water why wouldn't it work on a keg?

It should work just fine. Probably preferable for flocculant ale yeasts like wlp002.

Natural carbonation, whether it's in bottles or the keg, is the easiest method for homebrewers to get extremely low levels of packaged oxygen. I don't think there's any problem with fermenting a beer out in primary before adding additional sugar at packaging, as long as you don't wait too long to package. Most fermenters aren't 100% airtight and a month long primary is ample opportunity for o2 to diffuse in.

I think the discussion here has been great and has really highlighted some of the issues with applying Lodo to ales. The process in the paper focused mostly on lagers, and it's clear that ales need to be treated a bit differently.

A focus on getting the hot side system tight so that a minimal dose of SMB is required (say less than 40 mg/l), combined with fermenting out in primary and adding sugar at packaging sounds quite promising for ales.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Seems reasonable to me.

One thing I wonder, is the lag time for the yeast to start chewing on priming sugar long enough for oxygen to cause any damage?

The way I'm seeing it, and I could very well be wrong, is as long as your not spiking the hell out of the O2 levels the yeast should be able to scavenge it pretty quick. Look how fast the yeast scavenging method works on mash water and the O2 levels are much higher there than a finished beer ready for packaging.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

It should work just fine. Probably preferable for flocculant ale yeasts like wlp002.



Natural carbonation, whether it's in bottles or the keg, is the easiest method for homebrewers to get extremely low levels of packaged oxygen. I don't think there's any problem with fermenting a beer out in primary before adding additional sugar at packaging, as long as you don't wait too long to package. Most fermenters aren't 100% airtight and a month long primary is ample opportunity for o2 to diffuse in.



I think the discussion here has been great and has really highlighted some of the issues with applying Lodo to ales. The process in the paper focused mostly on lagers, and it's clear that ales need to be treated a bit differently.



A focus on getting the hot side system tight so that a minimal dose of SMB is required (say less than 40 mg/l), combined with fermenting out in primary and adding sugar at packaging sounds quite promising for ales.

I thought about this but couldn't come to a conclusion.... Wouldn't a less flocculant yeast potentially be better since you'd have more active yeast still in suspension?

 

[techbrau]

You don't want too much yeast at packaging. I've carried too much over into spunding, and ended up with autolysis a few times (confirmed via rising pH). Lately I've been starting to pressurize my fermentation during the final few days, building up enough carbonation that I can rack to the lager keg with only 1 or 2 gravity points left and most of the yeast has dropped out. This is all a really tricky balancing act.

Even highly flocculant yeasts should leave enough cells in suspension that bottle carbing is still possible. If you run into problems with a certain strain, you can always add a small amount of new yeast at packaging along with the priming sugar.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Can CO2 Calibration Gas be used for carbonation? It's 99.999% pure CO2.

17 Liters for $34. Shipping is also $30+.

http://www.calgasdirect.com/carbon-dioxide-pure-gas-99-999-in-17-liter-cylinder/

 

[TheHairyHop]

What I did for my latest NEIPA was to dry hop at the tail end of fermentation and then add some dme to carb. It's been hoppy for more than a month now

 

[Magnus314]

I have natural carbed in keg a lot. Usually ales (which works fine), but sometimes Lagers- with mixed results.

For the two LODO lager batches I tried it with, they never cleared.

That said, none of the four "catch them with few points left and keg" batches ever cleared either.

All of my "Fast Lager Method" batches were a bit more clear before they went in the keg, and the last two I carbed up with 2 quarts of spiesse each.

I'll let you know when they are done Lagering how it turns out.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

@magnus314 are you running a mini mash to get your spiesse? Saving it from brewday?

 

[schematix]

Has anyone come across a method to filter the 0.1% O2 out of standard grade CO2? Is it even possible?

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Has anyone come across a method to filter the 0.1% O2 out of standard grade CO2? Is it even possible?

Here is a purifier that I've come across before. Its pricey at $215.00. Says it'll last 4 tanks, but didn't list the size of those tanks.

http://co2purifier.com/vici-metronics-co2-purifier/

"VICI Metronics gas purifiers dramatically reduce contaminant levels and absorb a greater variety of contaminants than other gas purification products. Advanced materials and design features guarantee that the modules will produce gases that are at least a factor of ten higher than a 99.9999% “chromatography grade” cylinder of gas when the purifier is supplied by a 99.995% cylinder. The cost difference between the two grades of gas will pay for the cost of the gas purifier several times over during its operating life."

 

[Bilsch]

This filter is for polishing a few thousanths of a percent in a 99.995 purity gas. It would be quickly overwhelmed working on 99.8 %
And of course handling such a device is tricky as just connecting to fittings or lines that had some air in them ruins it.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

This filter is for polishing a few thousanths of a percent in a 99.995 purity gas. It would be quickly overwhelmed working on 99.8 %
And of course handling such a device is tricky as just connecting to fittings or lines that had some air in them ruins it.

What about using Cal Gas? I posted this on the last page.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I can't help but think that either they can't produce a higher purity for whatever reason or the process of doing so is too consuming to be profitable. Otherwise I'd imagine they'd already be selling the stuff.

 

[wobdee]

Maybe a pinch of smb in the keg wouldn't hurt?

 

[stpug]

Maybe a pinch of smb in the keg wouldn't hurt?

With excess sulfites already present and/or inappropriate yeast strain, it certain could hurt.

 

[wobdee]

With excess sulfites already present and/or inappropriate yeast strain, it certain could hurt.

Yeah, I suppose ale yeast could give you problems. I only brew lagers with WY2124 and have been doing the lodo thing for around a year now so my system is pretty dialed in for me. Even with 100 mg/l smb in the mash and 6-10 mg/l in the keg I've had no sulfur problems or off flavors. Now im cutting back on the smb and playing with Brewtan. I guess everyone needs to play around with things to find what works best for their systems.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Anyone have a running list of yeasts that are having sulfur problems? Might be handy for future reference.

 

[Edelst0ff]

I would argue that bottle conditioning is your best bet since oxygen is scavenged by default. At a recent Doemens seminar in Munich this was acknowledged too.

Packaging quickly becomes a terrible hurdle for home brewers. I'm afraid there is a trade off that just needs to be made if one wants to distribute blank beer.

Otherwise, a bit of speise and bottle is the safest and least complicated method (so it seems).

Force carbonating certainly increases the risk since the amount of co2 is so much larger than just using it to push it out. Diffusion rates from head space also seems much lower (empirically), so one might get away writhin a certain time span without noticeable detrimental effects.

Your mileage may vary but it's probably best to keep the theory in mind and find a practical compromise that works for you.

For what it's worth, I had great results with classic cold fermentation, bunging in secondary with 0.5-1.0 extract left, setting the PRV to 0.5 BAR.

It often took as long as 8 weeks for the beer
to stabilise of sorts. Then, I didn't notice any detrmental effects using generally available Co2 to push it out (these kegs don't last more than 2-3 weeks).

Instead of chasing a Potential red herring, it's probably best to be patient and not panic. I always found that suddenly a batch I thought would turn for the worse suddenly changed its mind and turned into a delightful drink.

 

[Kit_B]

Instead of chasing a Potential red herring, it's probably best to be patient and not panic. I always found that suddenly a batch I thought would turn for the worse suddenly changed its mind and turned into a delightful drink.

Indeed.

 

[TexasWine]

For those that might be wondering just how short a shortened gas side dip tube might be, here's an example of one I just cut.

View attachment 1473018810229.jpg

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

For those that might be wondering just how short a shortened gas side dip tube might be, here's an example of one I just cut.

If you don't mind my asking what's the length of the piece you cut off?

 

[Magnus314]

Pulling it from the next batch. I've been doing Lagers more regularly to dial in the process, so I use a bit from the next to carb the previous.

 

[schematix]

I cut mine to 11/16" and its close to flush on the inside. I'd go to 5/8" next time.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1473082012.158434.jpg

 

[schematix]

.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I wanted to update with some more of my tasting notes now that I've had time to enjoy all the beers I tried this process on. While none of these have anything to compare against I have faith in my palate.
Neither IPA I made has seemed to have any difference in malt character. Good beers but I'm not noticing anything they didn't already have. However, the more malt focused beers I made have a noticeably cleaner malt character than usual. These being a smoked porter and weizenbock. The weizenbock blew my buddy(brewer/certified cicerone/BJCP judge who used to live in Germany) away and his favorite beer is Vitus.
Considering my only investment into all of this has been a brick of yeast for $5 and campden tabs I already had I plan to keep experimenting with it. The rest has been very basic process adjustments like moving to a full volume mash and loading my malt pipe before racking mash water in. Nothing hard.
I'm not sold that this does anything for hoppy beers, or at least IPAs, so I don't know if I'll use the process on those. But, I do see potential for the more malt focused styles. I still plan to do a side by side but thought I should give a final review of sorts for my first handful of batches.

 

[jddevinn]

My latest results (after lowering the SMB significantly) are:

An iteration of "Pun-ishment" Pale Ale that does not have much difference than my regular method.

An iteration of Forgot to Take Her Pilsner (actually technically a Kolsch) that is 75% 2-row and 25% white wheat that is significantly different (I still had some of another batch on tap.) The LoDO version of this recipe tastes like a very waterdown wheat beer, where previously very little to no wheat tastes was present. Taste testing non on my friends thought it was the same recipe. While I don't like the way this particular beer came out I do like the results, I'll have to decrease the wheat percentage next brew.

 

[TexasWine]

If you don't mind my asking what's the length of the piece you cut off?

Sorry, already chunked it in the trash and don't really want to burrow through bags of dog poop to find it

I know it's not what you asked, but if I had to guess, the dip tube after trimming was no more than 3/8".

I just bought 6 new kegs and still need to cut the post on four of them. I'll measure one of those.

 

[jddevinn]

I cut them all to the keg level. Basically they serve as a gasket seat.