Interesting German Brewing PDF

[TexasWine]

I've done a couple no sparge, biab, low O2 ales at 50 mg/l NaMeta rates and the sulfur residual is still overwhelming. This has been using saison 3724 and british 1318. The saison, which has been "lagering" for 8 weeks now, is still just terrible; I will be dumping it for certain. I think aiming for an upper max of 40 mg/l is probably a safe place to begin, ale-wise - adjust future ales up or down based on your experience. At least, that has been my experience so far.

A couple lagers (using 2035) came out sulfury as well, but the yeast has been able to clean them up given time. These were both in the 50-55 mg/l range. Even my lagers I intend on going down to an upper limit of 40 mg/l.

Thanks for sharing. Based on your experience, I might even cut back to the 25-30 range. I have to make some beer for a party and there's no time for a redo if it comes out all wrong.

 

[ajdelange]

I get plenty of sulfur associated smells around the fermenter when brewing lagers with no addition of any sulfur compounds. There is no sulfate in my water but there is plenty of sulfur in the side groups of several of the amino acids. The sulfur smell is a combination of sulfitic with sulfidic i.e. of matches and rotten eggs. A friend describes a classic lager fermentation as 'like a paper mill'. He may be right but I've never been to a paper mill.

The finished beers contain measurable amounts of sulfite which I always took to be a good thing as it keeps them in a reduced state. This dissipates with time, presumably as the sulfite gets oxidized to sulfate.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Closest thing I can describe mine as is eggs. I'm not good at descriptors though. Some sensory training is in my future.

Yea that's the sort of smell I'm more familiar with but that's not it. The only other time I've picked up this note was when trying to bring year old yeast back to life. But this was a fresh pack made into a starter and pitched at high krausen. Fermentation picked up in a few hours so I know they're healthy. At this point unless I pick it up in the finished beer I'm not going to fret over it. Likely just an odd fermentation smell.

 

[Magnus314]

My "sulfur bombs" have run from chemical/medicinal/elemental sulfur smelling to "shot fireworks" to sulfur-y cabbage/collard greens/"halloween pumpkins when you blow out the candle".

The last two batches with 2gms/15gallons lager and a 3gms/14 gallons Ale have been much cleaner, with a "too much gypsum" harsh kind of initial harshness that fades in a few days in secondary.

 

[TexasWine]

I think it's technically a low DO no no, but I've hooked up my CO2 to the liquid out. I'm bubbling CO2 through the beer a couple times per day in the hopes that it will strip out some of what's causing the smelly sulfur problem. Hopefully it works because I don't wanna dump it.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

My "sulfur bombs" have run from chemical/medicinal/elemental sulfur smelling

Now that's exactly what I was smelling. Sort of hard to describe without sounding like chlorophenols but it's different.

 

[TexasWine]

Wanted to show you fine folks my keg purging procedure for ball lock corny kegs. I think it's a pretty darn good way to get air out of them. Let me know if y'all have any ideas for improvements.

Oh and many thanks to others here who put into my head this whole idea of purging with sanitizer and CO2. My idea is simply a permutation of what other folks are, and have been, doing.

First, the key to how I purge is one of these nifty keg rinsers from MoreBeer. You can probably make one yourself for cheaper, but I went the easy route.

https://www.morebeer.com/products/morebeer-ball-lock-keg-rinser.html

I should also note that you need to trim/shorten the gas dip tube in order for this to work. Mine are now so short that you can't feel them protruding into the inside of the keg.

I put Star San in the keg and connect the liquid out to the water hose (using the keg rinser gizmo) so that it fills from the bottom and minimizes foaming. While filling I allow the keg lid to dangle loosely inside the keg from the keg's opening.

As soon as the sanitizer has started to overflow the keg I pull the lid into position and the pressure from the water hose seals up the keg. I push the sealing mechanism down on the keg lid as well.

Leaving the water hose connected, I then gently crack the PSV in the lid to push out any trapped air that might have collected there. Next, I lean the keg over so that the gas post is as close to the high point of the keg as possible. I shake the keg several times so that any air pockets trapped in other nooks and crannies will make their way to this high point. If I'm feeling froggy, I'll even turn it upside down, then back right side up, shaking some more. Then I depress the poppet in the gas post until there's only liquid coming out. A little air always comes out first.

The water from the hose will push any air pockets out the PSV and gas post. I believe this eliminates almost all the air, and more importantly oxygen, from the keg, which is what we're after.

Then I disconnect the water hose from the keg. At this point I simply use CO2 to push the sanitizer out the liquid line. Make sure to relieve the pressure on the keg before connecting the CO2. You don't want water back flowing into your gas line.

Let me know your thoughts or ideas. Am I full of hog wash thinking this actually gets most, if not all, air out? I've been told that due to the geometry of the corny keg it would be impossible.

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[jddevinn]

Wanted to show you fine folks my keg purging procedure for ball lock corny kegs. I think it's a pretty darn good way to get air out of them. Let me know if y'all have any ideas for improvements.

Oh and many thanks to others here who put into my head this whole idea of purging with sanitizer and CO2. My idea is simply a permutation of what other folks are, and have been, doing.

First, the key to how I purge is one of these nifty keg rinsers from MoreBeer. You can probably make one yourself for cheaper, but I went the easy route.

https://www.morebeer.com/products/morebeer-ball-lock-keg-rinser.html

I should also note that you need to trim/shorten the gas dip tube in order for this to work. Mine are now so short that you can't feel them protruding into the inside of the keg.

I put Star San in the keg and connect the liquid out to the water hose (using the keg rinser gizmo) so that it fills from the bottom and minimizes foaming. While filling I allow the keg lid to dangle loosely inside the keg from the keg's opening.

As soon as the sanitizer has started to overflow the keg I pull the lid into position and the pressure from the water hose seals up the keg. I push the sealing mechanism down on the keg lid as well.

Leaving the water hose connected, I then gently crack the PSV in the lid to push out any trapped air that might have collected there. Next, I lean the keg over so that the gas post is as close to the high point of the keg as possible. I shake the keg several times so that any air pockets trapped in other nooks and crannies will make their way to this high point. If I'm feeling froggy, I'll even turn it upside down, then back right side up, shaking some more. Then I depress the poppet in the gas post until there's only liquid coming out. A little air always comes out first.

The water from the hose will push any air pockets out the PSV and gas post. I believe this eliminates almost all the air, and more importantly oxygen, from the keg, which is what we're after.

Then I disconnect the water hose from the keg. At this point I simply use CO2 to push the sanitizer out the liquid line. Make sure to relieve the pressure on the keg before connecting the CO2. You don't want water back flowing into your gas line.

Let me know your thoughts or ideas. Am I full of hog wash thinking this actually gets most, if not all, air out? I've been told that due to the geometry of the corny keg it would be impossible.

Very Very similar to what I am doing, although I do not have one of those post washers. Looks like a good idea cause I make more mess!!!!

I normally "pass around" the StarSan from keg to keg for a couple of months. When I first make it up I use deairated water, probably overboard.

 

[duelerx]

Really cool!. Could you post a quick video next time you use your procedure?

 

[duelerx]

Wanted to show you fine folks my keg purging procedure for ball lock corny kegs. I think it's a pretty darn good way to get air out of them. Let me know if y'all have any ideas for improvements.

Oh and many thanks to others here who put into my head this whole idea of purging with sanitizer and CO2. My idea is simply a permutation of what other folks are, and have been, doing.

First, the key to how I purge is one of these nifty keg rinsers from MoreBeer. You can probably make one yourself for cheaper, but I went the easy route.

https://www.morebeer.com/products/morebeer-ball-lock-keg-rinser.html

I should also note that you need to trim/shorten the gas dip tube in order for this to work. Mine are now so short that you can't feel them protruding into the inside of the keg.

I put Star San in the keg and connect the liquid out to the water hose (using the keg rinser gizmo) so that it fills from the bottom and minimizes foaming. While filling I allow the keg lid to dangle loosely inside the keg from the keg's opening.

As soon as the sanitizer has started to overflow the keg I pull the lid into position and the pressure from the water hose seals up the keg. I push the sealing mechanism down on the keg lid as well.

Leaving the water hose connected, I then gently crack the PSV in the lid to push out any trapped air that might have collected there. Next, I lean the keg over so that the gas post is as close to the high point of the keg as possible. I shake the keg several times so that any air pockets trapped in other nooks and crannies will make their way to this high point. If I'm feeling froggy, I'll even turn it upside down, then back right side up, shaking some more. Then I depress the poppet in the gas post until there's only liquid coming out. A little air always comes out first.

The water from the hose will push any air pockets out the PSV and gas post. I believe this eliminates almost all the air, and more importantly oxygen, from the keg, which is what we're after.

Then I disconnect the water hose from the keg. At this point I simply use CO2 to push the sanitizer out the liquid line. Make sure to relieve the pressure on the keg before connecting the CO2. You don't want water back flowing into your gas line.

Let me know your thoughts or ideas. Am I full of hog wash thinking this actually gets most, if not all, air out? I've been told that due to the geometry of the corny keg it would be impossible.

Really cool!. Could you post a quick video next time you use your procedure?

 

[wobdee]

I would switch from Starsan to Saniclean, all that foam you see are tiny air bubbles.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I actually have one of those keg washers though I've been connecting and filling through both posts until it's only liquid coming through the PRV. It's actually made me wonder if doing this would make trimming the gas tube pointless. If the same method is purging the dip tube I don't see why the gas tube would be any different. Am I missing something?

Edit - I wanted to add something I think deals with the bubbles issue. If you fill your keg like 95% full with sanitizer before sealing it and hooking up the keg washer you get nearly no foam. Its when I fill the whole keg through the posts that I get a lot more foam.

 

[orangehero]

I fill through liquid out post until sanitizer comes out of PRV then push down on gas poppet until sanitizer comes out. Not sure what trimming the gas tube accomplishes.

 

[jddevinn]

I actually have one of those keg washers though I've been connecting and filling through both posts until it's only liquid coming through the PRV. It's actually made me wonder if doing this would make trimming the gas tube pointless. If the same method is purging the dip tube I don't see why the gas tube would be any different. Am I missing something?

Edit - I wanted to add something I think deals with the bubbles issue. If you fill your keg like 95% full with sanitizer before sealing it and hooking up the keg washer you get nearly no foam. Its when I fill the whole keg through the posts that I get a lot more foam.

I fill through liquid out post until sanitizer comes out of PRV then push down on gas poppet until sanitizer comes out. Not sure what trimming the gas tube accomplishes.

The shape of the corny keg lid traps air around the pressure relief valve that will not vent unless it is "agitated" to come out of the gas in port. This won't work if the gas in port still extends into the liquid.

 

[doug293cz]

The shape of the corny keg lid traps air around the pressure relief valve that will not vent unless it is "agitated" to come out of the gas in port. This won't work if the gas in port still extends into the liquid.

Love the 3D keg model! Did you build the model, or did you find one on the net somewhere?

I came to the same trapped air volume in the lid (~3 fl oz) by direct measurement. Remove/open the PRV poppet, suspend the lid upside down, fill with water till it overflows out the PRV opening, and measure the volume of water remaining in the lid.





Brew on

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

The shape of the corny keg lid traps air around the pressure relief valve that will not vent unless it is "agitated" to come out of the gas in port. This won't work if the gas in port still extends into the liquid.

I usually flip the keg over so there's no where for headspace to hide. I'd assume since there's water coming through the posts it would squeeze the air pocket out no?

 

[doug293cz]

...

Let me know your thoughts or ideas. Am I full of hog wash thinking this actually gets most, if not all, air out? I've been told that due to the geometry of the corny keg it would be impossible.

I think your method is just about optimal for getting the most air out of a corny keg. I think I may have been the source for the "impossibility" assertion. If I actually said it was impossible to do better, then I stand corrected. My point was that just opening the lid PRV and filling to overflow would leave about 3 fl oz of air volume in the keg.

Brew on

 

[jddevinn]

Love the 3D keg model! Did you build the model, or did you find one on the net somewhere?

I came to the same trapped air volume in the lid (~3 fl oz) by direct measurement. Remove/open the PRV poppet, suspend the lid upside down, fill with water till it overflows out the PRV opening, and measure the volume of water remaining in the lid.

View attachment 368349

View attachment 368350

Brew on

Yep, I've seen your direct measurement pictures in a thread before and have been using the keg model for visualizations. I have time and patience for some things, CAD modeling (especially details) are not one of them!:fro:

Corny keg came from GrabCad I checked major dimensions and they are right to my "standad" kegs.

 

[jddevinn]

I usually flip the keg over so there's no where for headspace to hide. I'd assume since there's water coming through the posts it would squeeze the air pocket out no?

this portion of the keg varies by manufacture, but there will still be an air pocket that the out tube can't drain.

 

[TexasWine]

I think your method is just about optimal for getting the most air out of a corny keg. I think I may have been the source for the "impossibility" assertion. If I actually said it was impossible to do better, then I stand corrected. My point was that just opening the lid PRV and filling to overflow would leave about 3 fl oz of air volume in the keg.

Brew on

Haha! Might have been you @doug293cz , but I can't recall. All I remember is reading something and then thinking, "I can figure this out, by George."

Ultimately I'm going to give fermenting in a keg a whirl. I will connect the serving keg to the fermenting keg so it gets purged without any effort on my part.

Even been toying around with the idea of putting a fining agent in the serving keg so that when I transfer over it gets fined without exposing the beer to oxygen.

 

[jddevinn]

Hmmm, I that's an interesting method Texas. Do you think there is enough CO2 produced in the fermenting keg to reduce the O2 concentration in the attached keg to acceptable levels? I'm not an expert but isn't gelatin fining dependent on the cooling reaction in the gelatin?

I've thought about using a syringe to NPT adapter http://www.vitaneedle.com/luer-locks-adapters.htm and a NPT to MFL adapter to come up with a way to inject (degassed) finings and extracts into the keg without opening it but havent done anything yet.

 

[TexasWine]

Hmmm, I that's an interesting method Texas. Do you think there is enough CO2 produced in the fermenting keg to reduce the O2 concentration in the attached keg to acceptable levels? I'm not an expert but isn't gelatin fining dependent on the cooling reaction in the gelatin?

I've thought about using a syringe to NPT adapter http://www.vitaneedle.com/luer-locks-adapters.htm and a NPT to MFL adapter to come up with a way to inject (degassed) finings and extracts into the keg without opening it but havent done anything yet.

Yup, there should be plenty of CO2 produced during fermentation to purge the keg completely. One of the guys over in the German Brewing forum already uses this method.

Concerning fining, I was contemplating using isinglass, not gelatin. So I shouldn't have any temperature concerns.

 

[Magnus314]

Are you guys finding this level of CO2 purging to be necessary?

I have three beers now that definitely have "it", and I just purged out sanitizer.

Does this make the "it" last longer? Taste different? Something else good I don't even know about?

 

[GotPushrods]

Are you guys finding this level of CO2 purging to be necessary?

I have three beers now that definitely have "it", and I just purged out sanitizer.

Does this make the "it" last longer? Taste different? Something else good I don't even know about?

The reason I started liquid purging was shelf life. I haven't experimented with LODO but the method of cutting the gas tube, pumping in sanitizer and tilting/shaking until all air is purged had made a huge difference. From a few months until the first signs of oxidation to now over a year. I believe I also detailed my method earlier in this thread... Hmm. Or another. Not sure but it's basically identical to what's been discussed here in the last few pages.

The key is to tilt the keg as you pump in StarSan and gently shake as it overflows the gas post. (Keep the gas post high)

 

[jddevinn]

Are you guys finding this level of CO2 purging to be necessary?

I have three beers now that definitely have "it", and I just purged out sanitizer.

Does this make the "it" last longer? Taste different? Something else good I don't even know about?

Yea I find it necessary not for "it" but for stability of beers over a couple months.

 

[Magnus314]

So under a couple of months you haven't had problems?

Mine don't usually last that long

Maybe I'll try bottling a batch to compare short term vs long term.

 

[jddevinn]

I have 10 taps and do 10 gallon batches..... stuff stays longer than I think! Killed off a PA brewed in February earlier this week.

 

[schematix]

I was waiting to post this until I tapped the second keg of my first lodo batch, but since the topic of oxidation with force carbing has come up, i'll post about my recent experience.

My first lodo helles batch made about 12 gallons, split across 3 kegs. Unfortunately I was only able to carbonate to about 2 volumes due spunding valve leaks and crap hydrometers. For serving I went ahead and hooked it up to my standard 10-12 psi and thus gave it the extra 0.5 vols or so. Well its been a little over a month and the sweet grainy flavor that was initially very prominent is 100% gone and has been replaced by a flavor reminiscent of white wine (although not to the same extent as my usual 100% force carbonated beers).

The remaining 2 kegs haven't seen any force carbonation yet so it'll be interesting when i tap them to see if they still have the sweet grainy flavor and if they also diminish with time.

 

[TexasWine]

I was waiting to post this until I tapped the second keg of my first lodo batch, but since the topic of oxidation with force carbing has come up, i'll post about my recent experience.

My first lodo helles batch made about 12 gallons, split across 3 kegs. Unfortunately I was only able to carbonate to about 2 volumes due spunding valve leaks and crap hydrometers. For serving I went ahead and hooked it up to my standard 10-12 psi and thus gave it the extra 0.5 vols or so. Well its been a little over a month and the sweet grainy flavor that was initially very prominent is 100% gone and has been replaced by a flavor reminiscent of white wine (although not to the same extent as my usual 100% force carbonated beers).

The remaining 2 kegs haven't seen any force carbonation yet so it'll be interesting when i tap them to see if they still have the sweet grainy flavor and if they also diminish with time.

As much as I don't want to believe that force carbonation is the devil, I guess it is. This will be problematic for folks that ferment in containers that can't hold pressure and don't have free time mid fermentation (which is usually mid week as well) to rack to a keg. Is bottle conditioning the answer to the busy brewer's dilemma?

From what I've read, it also sounds like bottling from the keg results in this loss of flavor, even when using what has generally been thought of as good tools and good procedure. This is unfortunate as I bottle a lot of beer for competitions well in advance of the competition date.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I've naturally carbed kegs by just adding a necessary amount of DME wort to the keg