Input Wanted On Founders Backwoods Bastard Clone Recipe

[Bigarcherynut]

Been brewing Bourbon Stout beers the last couple of years. Founders Backwoods Bastard is one of my favorites so I'm interested in trying this recipe. There's a few things with this recipe I have questions on and hope you fellows brewers can shed some light on.

Here's the link to the recipe. I thought this was also posted on this forum but cannot locate it.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/110077/backwoods-bastard-clone

He's doing things here I'm not sure of and hope you can help me. I brew E-Kettle BIAB and so I wont be doing any sparges.

1. I feel the grain bill is fine and have entered it into BeerSmith2 and converted it to a 5.5 gallon recipe. Happy with this but open to ideas.
2. He has a small second mash he does but not sure exactly what he's doing. It's a 1-1/2 gallon mash but he says two different things. He says its a lot of work but you end up with a quart of caramelized wort. Then he talks about adding this small wort to the main wort and boil them both. It then sounds as if it's the full 1-1/2 gallon of wort with the main wort. The entire 2 worts are boiled down adding the small 1-1/2 gallon wort in slowly for a 2 hour boil. Confusing for sure. What are your thoughts on this. Maybe you'll read this differently.
3. I've done oak and bourbon additions to some stouts one is a Dragons Milk clone and never use that much oak and bourbon. I normally use 2 oz. of oak chips and just enough bourbon to cover the chips entirely. If I need more bourbon flavor I add some at kegging time. How's your feelings on this??
4. The water profile is close to mine but with my extremely hard water, I'm using 60% RO water with my well water for a water profile of: 76 Calcium, 18 Mag, 33 Sodium, 47 Sulfate, 49 Chloride and 260 Bicarb for a pH of 5.44. My well water is extremely hard.
5. He listed two different mash temps. One is 156 and the other in his notes is 152. Thinking of something around 153-154 for 90 minutes. Lately my 60 minute mashes have fallen short of my numbers so after posting on this forum I'm going to go 90 minutes as suggested. Thoughts???
6. I'm going to do a 2.75 liter starter with a stir plate. Should get me a good starter for this brew. I'm not sure about all the extra bursts of O2 at the first few hours of fermentation. What are your feelings? I do about a 60 second burst of O2 before pitching my yeast.

I'm going to be fermenting this in a new FermZilla conical fermenter I'm getting for Christmas so it will be fermented under pressure so I'm not concerned about the low temps he fermented at. Currently my basement is at about 61 degrees so either way I think I'm low enough. I'm looking at about 3 weeks with a trub removal at about a week and a half. I'll take gravity reading at 3 weeks and then add the oak chips, vanilla extract and taste test after a week and see how things are coming.

Sorry for the long post but really want to hit this out of the park.

Thanks for your help and input.

Bill

 

[kevin58]

I have never found a Founders clone on the interwebs that I liked. You say you have already been making Bourbon Stout beers so what I would do is take one of the recipes you think would make a good base and start tinkering with that. Start with a flavor characteristic that the original has that yours might be missing. Then figure out what you need to add to get that character in yours.

Another method is to gather together as many different versions of the clone recipe as you can and note what is common among all of them. Then take all of the outlier ingredients and try to figure out what each brewer was trying to accomplish by using those.

My preference is to start with as little as necessary and then add on in stages. At some point when I get close I stop adding things and start editing the amounts or substituting one ingredient for a similar ingredient from another source. It can be a long journey but it's satisfying when you get it right.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

I have never found a Founders clone on the interwebs that I liked. You say you have already been making Bourbon Stout beers so what I would do is take one of the recipes you think would make a good base and start tinkering with that. Start with a flavor characteristic that the original has that yours might be missing. Then figure out what you need to add to get that character in yours.

Another method is to gather together as many different versions of the clone recipe as you can and note what is common among all of them. Then take all of the outlier ingredients and try to figure out what each brewer was trying to accomplish by using those.

My preference is to start with as little as necessary and then add on in stages. At some point when I get close I stop adding things and start editing the amounts or substituting one ingredient for a similar ingredient from another source. It can be a long journey but it's satisfying when you get it right.

After reading your reply I looked at my previous recipes and compared the grain bills. My favorite one is a Dragon's Milk clone I did in the beginning of July. It has always been good but changes all the time which I have noticed with my more complex beers. One thing I haven't figured out is when do they quite changing. Lol.

The taste of Founders Backwoods Bastard is a big step above the Dragons Milk and we really love it. They do have similar grain bills so that's a good thing. I use BeerSmith to do my recipes. One thing I wish they had was a column that showed the percent of the grain bill each grain is. That would make tweaking a little easier.

As for the recipe I found for the Backwoods Bastard, I think I'm going to use it seeing it's similar but hoping the extra grains will get it close to the BB. I'm not sure about doing that separate small mash he does because I'm not sure exactly what he's doing seeing he says two different things.

The hard part about experimenting with the recipe is that it takes a least 6 months for them to age . Oh well, one thing I can say about my brewing is, I've been doing it for about 8 years and I'm much more patient. Even if it isn't exactly like the Backwoods Bastard it will be very drinkable.

Thanks for your input.

 

[kevin58]

Beersmith does list ingredients in percentages. Unless you've customized the columns it is the 5th one and is labeled %/IBU. For fermentables it is the percentage... for hops it's the IBU.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

Beersmith does list ingredients in percentages. Unless you've customized the columns it is the 5th one and is labeled %/IBU. For fermentables it is the percentage... for hops it's the IBU.

Didn't see the / mark on BS. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

. I'm not sure about doing that separate small mash he does because I'm not sure exactly what he's doing seeing he says two different things.

Thanks for your input.

He is using the smaller first mash to boil down to concentrate the gravity and increase kettle caramelization. Then reserving that boiled liquid to add back into the main mash boil.

 

[Bigarcherynut]

He is using the smaller first mash to boil down to concentrate the gravity and increase kettle caramelization. Then reserving that boiled liquid to add back into the main mash boil.

I thought that but he sort of contradicts what he actually does. I read the part about the quart of caramelized wort and thought that, but then he said combine the 1st and 2nd mash in the boil pot and boil for 2 hours for further caramelization. Then says I continue to add the reserve wort over the next two hours. Just a little confusing on what he actually does.

I just read some on kettle caramelization and this is making more sense for brewing high gravity Scotch Ales. I'm going to boil down the first wort to get a quart of sweet wort.

My boil down rate is fairly high with my oval kettle so I think I would end up with less than the 5.5 gallons I want by boiling for two hours even though I add an extra quart. Should I increase my starting water and leave my grain bill the same so I can boil for 2 hours even though I'm adding the small boiled down sweet wort?? I don't mind the extra steps if I get the results I'm hoping for.

Thanks!!

 

[kevin58]

You know that Scottish brewers didn't boil down their worts to caramelize them right? That is a modern invention created from a romanticized notion of windswept moors and craggy hilltops covered in heather. Like everywhere else, brewing practices did vary over time and examples can be found of long boils (as too in England) but there are also examples of very short boil times by Scottish brewers... as little as 45 minutes. But according to brewery records dating back to the 1800's... and many of them were very good about recording boil lengths in a section of their log books called "heats and beats"... the Scots didn't boil any longer on average than their English counterparts.

But this is about how to replicate a modern take on a Scottish ale so if that's what it takes to clone it then yeah, boil down. Just don't believe that caramelizing the wort is how any brewery in Scotland ever made them.

 

[NTBeer]

Did you brew this? Any feedback on how it compares to Founders version?

 

[Bigarcherynut]

Did you brew this? Any feedback on how it compares to Founders version?

I did brew the clone recipe on 1/19/2020. I tried to duplicate the recipe as close I could or say I wanted to. The one thing I did not add was the vanilla. The original beer I didn't taste vanilla and I'm not a fan of it. The brew was intense and quite complicated but in the end well worth it. I kegged it on 2/28 and till now have only had a few small glasses.

We did a side by side comparison when we were trying to determine how long to let the oak chips set in the fermenter. At that time is was flat and hard to compare but close. We added a little drop of vanilla to the glass but didn't feel it needed or I wanted to add vanilla so I didn't. I kept the bourbon oak chips in for a month and that was plenty long. I'm looking at saving this till this coming fall but after the last few samples hope it doesn't change because it's great. Now whether it's exactly like the original Backwoods Bastard I'm not sure because lately I have not done a side by side comparison but it's darn good.

It's going to be interesting how this changes over the next few months but it's a very nice creamy, full mouth feel medium bourbon/oak flavor finish. Ill update in another month and do a side by side then.

 

[Tyler B]

I'm interested in brewing this. Any tasting updates? Also, did you brew the same recipe linked in your first post?

 

[Bigarcherynut]

I'm interested in brewing this. Any tasting updates? Also, did you brew the same recipe linked in your first post?

I brewed this on 1/19/2020. I followed the recipe that I posted and only changed the amounts for a 5.5 gallon batch. My water profile was pretty close. I feel it came out pretty close to the original. It's been over 6 months and I sample a small glass every month. I find it changes slightly for the good every month. As I mentioned before I did not add the vanilla because I don't taste that in the original and I'm not a fan of it. Once I start to drink it on a regular basis I'll have a better idea if it needs any tweaking.