Improving your homebrew.....

[rhamilton]

I've done a collection of various mini-mash brews -- the clone kits are damn close to their commercial equivalents and the rest are very tasty and drinkable so I'm doing something right. The only major taste-related flaw is a strange 'twangy' after-taste that is common in all of the kits. I've tried late addition of the LME but the off flavor is still the same.

I've narrowed the off-flavor down to either water quality (tap water pH @ 8.9, most likely culprit) or fermentation temperatures (Been doing room temp @ 72-74, less likely). I'm holding off on more brews until I get my ferm chamber built and I'll either switch to bottled water or condition my tap water.

So besides water quality and ferm temp control, is there any other process change I can do to improve my homebrew flavor/quality? (Other than going all-grain )

 

[JLem]

I think you're on the right track. Btw, those temps seem really high, especially if they are the room temps and not the beer/fermentation temps. Remember that fermentation is exothermic and the beer temp can be as much as 10 degrees higher than the ambient temp.

I suppose you could also try using a different type of extract. What do you currently use?

 

[rhamilton]

The kits are from Austin Homebrew -- so whatever brand is in their barrels (it's liquid, thats about all I know)

 

[mcaple1]

Thats why I do aquarium style fermentation chambers...the thermal energy released by the yeast is quickly absorbed and then equalized by the surrounding water bath...thus, my fermentation temp remains a constant 65 deg.

 

[baldben]

Austin Homebrew Supply seems to go through their LME supplies pretty quickly. Wouldn't guess there would be an issue of freshness.

 

[born3z]

I think fermentation temp is probably the biggest thing. I used to get that "twangy" taste as well, when I first started brewing. I wrote if off to extract twang. When I got back into brewing a couple of months ago, my first few batches were extract and I don't have the twang that I noticed before. I ferment in a swamp cooler at the low end of the yeasts temp range. Of course, I live in a different city now so, water my be the culprit as well. But, I'm willing to bet it is temp control.

 

[weirdboy]

The first and best thing you should do to improve your beer is control fermentation temperatures.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

i'm gonna jump on the bandwagon and sat the high temps are the most likely culprit. if it's the 'twang', try switching your LME adds to flameout and steep til LME is thoroughly mixed. you could also try switching to DME. i've never noticed that twang using DME.

 

[unionrdr]

That's why I use DME in the boil & LME at flame out. Better flavor & lighter color. No twang.

 

[born3z]

I agree on the DME as well. Forgot to mention that.

 

[Piratwolf]

i'm gonna jump on the bandwagon and sat the high temps are the most likely culprit. if it's the 'twang', try switching your LME adds to flameout and steep til LME is thoroughly mixed. you could also try switching to DME. i've never noticed that twang using DME.

+1 to extract twang. Called it myth til I went all grain and that weird slight off flavor disappeared. can't comment on the DME, but the rest of what I see from Nordeast has been solid so I'll take his word.

I'd also add yeast starters. Mrmalty.com is the way to start... Make sure you pitch big and healthy.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I'd also add yeast starters. Mrmalty.com is the way to start... Make sure you pitch big and healthy.

right back atcha, bro. a healthy pitch can help ferment out some of those stubborn extracts, some like to stick in the high teens/low 20s.

i'll add another. avoid extract that is called amber, dark, red, etc. as a base, stick with the light/extra light/pilsen extracts as a base and get most of your colors from steeping grains, or small amounts of darker extract. the darker extracts have specialty grains in them, in unknown amounts, and thus are less fermentable. the lighter extracts are generally 2-row and a touch of carapils.

 

[unionrdr]

Seems to me the flavor wouldn't be the same? a light extract with just color added seems like it wouldn't taste the same. Not sure,as I have yet to make that comparison. But the DME's I use from Munton's have all been great so far. I've used the plain extra light,light,& amber so far. Mixing them with various hops & cooper's cans,my process gives some good ales. What would you say of the comparison between light with color added or using the various "colors" of extract?

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

. What would you say of the comparison between light with color added or using the various "colors" of extract?

i don't really have a comparison, i just feel that if you use light extract as a base, you can build on that with the specialty grains you chose. if you use a darker extract, you can still do this, but you don't know what specialty grains are already in the extract. i'd say if you're familiar enough with the extract you're using, be it light or amber, etc., and know what you want to add to it to enhance or augment that extract, that's the same thing. i'm not saying NOT to use a darker one, just always keep in mind they have some specialty grains in there already. i've used both amber and dark in some beer, in small amounts as more of a specialty extract, which is how i gather you do it too, and made great beer. when brewing extract, i just like to think of light/extra light, etc. extract as my base, and build from there, be it with specialty grains, some darker extract, or both.

edit: i edited my above post to clarify more on darker extracts cause you made a good point. thanks.

 

[daksin]

+1 to fermentation temperatures. Don't mean to be contrary, but there just is no such thing as extract twang. Homebrew shops (and online suppliers) buy from one of only a couple extract makers- if there was a twang associated with LME, you wouldn't be able to brew an LME beer without it, and most people do.

 

[unionrdr]

I see what you mean now ndb77. I'm doing it the other way around,to look at it another way. I tone the cooper's cans with different plain DME's to get the color/flavor I want. Or just to add a little bit of color,& a lot more flavor. Good thing you posted that,kinda clears my head a little about the grain stuff. I'll pretty much have to get the same color/flavor of my old summer ale that was made with an OS lager can from 6/09. It looked & tasted a heck of a lot like the Salvator doppel bock.

 

[BrewKnurd]

+1 to fermentation temperatures. Don't mean to be contrary, but there just is no such thing as extract twang. Homebrew shops (and online suppliers) buy from one of only a couple extract makers- if there was a twang associated with LME, you wouldn't be able to brew an LME beer without it, and most people do.

I think the extract twang concept may come from old or poorly stored extract. Agreed that fresh extract from quality manufacturers will not cause problems.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I think the extract twang concept may come from old or poorly stored extract. Agreed that fresh extract from quality manufacturers will not cause problems.

yep, it's real. it's easy to avoid if you buy fresh LME. but i've personally used a dated can of LME, and not only was it darker than a fresh can of the same brand, there was a definite 'twang' in the beer. Jamil touches on this very subject in the beginning of BCS. the darkening, and quite possibly the twang associated with LME is due to the malliard reaction that happens naturally with age and can be sped up by over boiling of LME.

 

[unionrdr]

I used an old cooper's can dated 6/09 once. But I added it at flame out,so no twang. Just darker color & flavor. But with the plain extra light DME & hops I used,it was a really good beer. See summer ale in my pics.

 

[baldben]

I posted about this in another thread today in regards to extract twang. Bob Hanson from Breiss was on the 'Malt Extract' episode of Basic Brewing Radio. He said that LME storing conditions are paramount. The hotter the conditions are, the more quickly maillard reactions take place causing darkening of the LME and an associated twang. He suggested DME if unable to procure fresh or well stored LME.

 

[unionrdr]

I keep LME & yeast in the fridge,hops in zip lock bags in the freezer. Lasts longer & in better condition that way.

 

[baldben]

Yeah he said if the LME is refrigerated shelf life isn't really a concern.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I posted about this in another thread today in regards to extract twang. Bob Hanson from Breiss was on the 'Malt Extract' episode of Basic Brewing Radio. He said that LME storing conditions are paramount. The hotter the conditions are, the more quickly maillard reactions take place causing darkening of the LME and an associated twang. He suggested DME if unable to procure fresh or well stored LME.

Yeah he said if the LME is refrigerated shelf life isn't really a concern.

i'll have to check out that episode, sounds interesting and helpful to anyone using extracts in any amounts. thanks for the heads up!

 

[Austinhomebrew]

I dont think people realize that DME is made from LME so if "twang" is in LME then it would be in DME as well.

I would recommend that you never use canned extract. Most complaints are a metallic taste they call twang. I am sure you have tasted the difference between fresh pineapple and pinapple from a can.

A lot of people overconcetrate the sanitizer and that leads to an off flavor. You have to measure carefully if it is a no rinse sanitizer. Many people add Iodophor until it colors the water. That is too much. It needs to be 12.5 parts per million in order to be no rinse. You have to be careful with Starsan as well. A lot of people use oxyclean and it contains soda ash, and you really need to rinse it really really well to remove it. Oxy clean is not meant to be food safe.

Some people even use used pantyhose as a grainbag.

A lot of off flavor come from water as well. Spend the little bit of extra money on some drinking water from the grocery store. Make sure that you only use it for the batch.

Or you could go through your entire procedure without any ingredients and taste the water at the end. The problem is not in the ingredients.

It usually is the water or the sanitizer. One step or Cleanitizer are sanitizers that break down into things that are naturally in beer so there is not a risk of an off flavor.

Good luck.
Bring a bottle or two in so we can try to figure it out.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I dont think people realize that DME is made from LME so if "twang" is in LME then it would be in DME as well.

I would recommend that you never use canned extract. Most complaints are a metallic taste they call twang. I am sure you have tasted the difference between fresh pineapple and pinapple from a can.

that's a great point!!! i always buy LME from a store that carries their own brand and has a high turnover. i've never had consistent good luck with the canned stuff. i've found that NB and midwest (no offense forrest, they're local, can't justify shipping with those two in town) brand extract to be far superior to the canned, even the good brands like Alexander's don't hold a flame to the store brands.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

that's a great point!!! i always buy LME from a store that carries their own brand and has a high turnover. i've never had consistent good luck with the canned stuff. i've found that NB and midwest (no offense forrest, they're local, can't justify shipping with those two in town) brand extract to be far superior to the canned, even the good brands like Alexander's don't hold a flame to the store brands.

Sorry to tell you that no store has their own brand of liquid malt extract. The store brand that all three of us use is Breiss. The pilsen light is incredible with a lovibond of 2. 2-row is 1.8 lovibond. Alexanders is 4 lovibond and Muntons is 8 (i think).

Forrest

 

[Beerrific]

I dont think people realize that DME is made from LME so if "twang" is in LME then it would be in DME as well.

I don't think this is the case. I am pretty sure Briess makes their un-hopped wort and then sends it either the evaporator or spray dryer.

But in any case, in addition to what others have said here I would suggest moving to a full boil also.

So here would be my order of things to address:
-Fermentation temp control
-Full boil
-All grain
-Water (as long as you don't have crazy weird water)

Oh, and remeber, the pH of your water means nothing. The pH of the mash is important but you are letting the extract maker handle that for you.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Sorry to tell you that no store has their own brand of liquid malt extract. The store brand that all three of us use is Breiss. The pilsen light is incredible with a lovibond of 2. 2-row is 1.8 lovibond. Alexanders is 4 lovibond and Muntons is 8 (i think).

Forrest

really?! that's interesting! i'm guessing you guys get it nice and fresh then? and yeah, the pilsen is great, i like the gold too. those are really the only ones i use unless i brew a kit. i do PM, so i only use a bit of LME, and only the really light ones in my recipes.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

Extract is NOT the cause of the problem. The can the extract was in for 6 months before it got to the US and another 2 months before it got to the store and another month before you bought it might have cause some off flavors but not the extract.

You don't blame the pinapple that came from the can, you blame the can.

Forrest

 

[baldben]

Extract is NOT the cause of the problem. The can the extract was in for 6 months before it got to the US and another 2 months before it got to the store and another month before you bought it might have cause some off flavors but not the extract.

You don't blame the pinapple that came from the can, you blame the can.

Forrest

First off, I've visited the store in Austin several times and I love it. Wish we had something like it in Dallas.

In regards to DME vs. LME, due to the higher liquid content of LME the shelf life is lesser. At least this is what Bob Hanson at Breiss says on the aforementioned podcast. According to him, the LME will have maillard reactions if stored at higher temperatures, regardless of container, though his example was if it was stored at a warehouse in summer temperatures its shelf life might be 6 months vs. a couple years at even room temperature.