Imperial stout high Fg fix

[CrystalShip]

So I decided to to try to make my own recipe for a big imperial stout using the iPhone app brewpal. Neither I, nor brewpal took into consideration that the gravity obtained from using large amounts of crystal, chocolate, carafa, black patent etc would not ferment.... Like I said, first time making my own recipe lol. Sooo my og was 1.100 and the beer has been in primary almost two weeks and the yeast has flocculated and finished at 1.032... Bummer!

My proposed fix... Boil some table sugar and throw it in there to boost alcohol and hopefully balance out some of that sweetness.

Thoughts?? Suggestions??

Oh yea... Here is the recipe

8# us two row
1# crystal 120
1# flaked oats
1/2# chocolate malt
1/2# carafa ll
1/2# roasted barley
1/2# black patent

Mashed this for 60 min at 152 degrees F. My system limits me to 12# of grain so here is some other stuff I added

3# Pilsen dme 80% fermentable
One 24oz jar of grandmas unsulphured molasses

Hops: 1oz columbus- whole- first wort hopped
1/2oz northern brewers- whole- 60 min
1/2oz northern brewers- whole- 40 min
1oz cascade- whole- 15min

Pitched two packs of US-05

 

[By-Tor]

I have an imp stout in secondary,the FG is at about 1.038 after a month in the primary and 2 weeks in secondary. I hope its at 1.032 in a couple weeks

 

[day_trippr]

[...]My proposed fix... Boil some table sugar and throw it in there to boost alcohol and hopefully balance out some of that sweetness.

Thoughts?? Suggestions??[...]

Alcohol balances sweetness?

Cheers

 

[CrystalShip]

Alcohol balances sweetness?

Cheers

Well, I do know this... Unfermentable sugars create more body, 100% fermentable sugar drys a beer out. So, by that logic I am assuming that yes, alcohol should balance out sweetness. Which is pretty much the question I was asking

 

[CA-LT1]

A. Amylase enzyme.
B. WLP099
C. both

C. took a stuck 1.036 RIS down to 1.018

 

[bigbeergeek]

Ditto on amylase. I have no idea why brewers don't use it more. It saved two stalled big beers I brewed last year.

 

[emjay]

Well, I do know this... Unfermentable sugars create more body, 100% fermentable sugar drys a beer out. So, by that logic I am assuming that yes, alcohol should balance out sweetness. Which is pretty much the question I was asking

The unfermentable sugars have virtually no sweetness though.

A LOT of brewers, even many fairly experienced ones, believe that high mash temps will result in sweeter beer due to the unfermentable sugars/dextrins. I guess they equate "sugar" with sweetness, which is understandable, but it's simply not the case. They add body (and lower the eventual ABV), but do not add any appreciable sweetness.

That's not to say that the unfermentable sugars produced in a mash lack any sweetness whatsoever. If a scientist isolated these sugars and gave you a tablespoon of 100% purity to taste, you'd likely notice some degree of sweetness. But it's nothing like sucrose, or even maltose.

And while I'm at it, I might as well add that lactose isn't very sweet either. It's got enough sweetness that you could make beer a BIT noticeably sweeter by using a LOT of lactose, but the amounts people typically use (ie 8-16oz in a 5gal batch) add very little - if ANY - appreciable sweetness to beer. Again, it's primary function is to add body, and perhaps mouthfeel. But if you're looking to backsweeten beer, cider, or whatever, lactose is, contrary to popular belief, a very lousy choice. Splenda, xylitol, or some other sweetener, would all be far more suitable for that purpose.

 

[emjay]

Ditto on amylase. I have no idea why brewers don't use it more. It saved two stalled big beers I brewed last year.

I like using amylase in the mash. But unless you pasteurized the beer or something, there's nothing to denature amylase that's just been thrown in the fermentor. It will just continue to work until there's nothing left for it to break down.

Also, for reasons stated above, amylase won't actually make the beer less sweet. In fact, if the problem is the yeast, rather than a lack of fermentable sugars, then it could actually even SWEETEN the beer!

 

[emjay]

Well, I do know this... Unfermentable sugars create more body, 100% fermentable sugar drys a beer out. So, by that logic I am assuming that yes, alcohol should balance out sweetness. Which is pretty much the question I was asking

Okay, I just realized you're also the OP. So I should ask... have you actually tasted the beer yet?

 

[CrystalShip]

Okay, I just realized you're also the OP. So I should ask... have you actually tasted the beer yet?

I have, I was going to rack it onto some oak chips I had soaking in maker's mark today but took the gravity measurement and realized it was 1.032 the beer tasted good and I'm not sure if it is just my taste buds or the fact that I read the gravity before I tasted it that made it taste sweet to me lol. I used plenty of yeast and aerated. It fermented normally and had about four inches of Krausen for almost a week. I'm interested in this amylase enzyme, I wasnt aware that you can purchase it. I assumed that the remaining gravity was a product of me using too large an amount of specialty malts.

 

[emjay]

I have, I was going to rack it onto some oak chips I had soaking in maker's mark today but took the gravity measurement and realized it was 1.032 the beer tasted good and I'm not sure if it is just my taste buds or the fact that I read the gravity before I tasted it that made it taste sweet to me lol. I used plenty of yeast and aerated. It fermented normally and had about four inches of Krausen for almost a week. I'm interested in this amylase enzyme, I wasnt aware that you can purchase it. I assumed that the remaining gravity was a product of me using too large an amount of specialty malts.

Actually, I also figured the gravity was a result of the specialty malts. With a pound of caramel 120, it's probably going to taste a bit sweet.

I really don't recommend amylase with this beer though. 68% attenuation really isn't that big of a deal, and a full-bodied can be nice. Amylase will slowly, but eventually, dry it out to a thin, lifeless beer. Not as noticeable with pale ales and IPAs, but it defimitely will be with an RIS.

Especially with all the specialty malt, most yeast strains aren't going to go much further than 68% no matter how you try to get them active. So what I can suggest is hitting it with another yeast strain - Wyeast 3711 will make short work of any fermentables remaining. 3711 is an absolute freak... no other strain attenuates quite like it.

Unfortunately, there's really no way to deal with too much crystal, but what's done is done. Other than what I suggested above, I strongly recommend just leaving it alone and treating it as a learning experience.

 

[day_trippr]

Well, I do know this... Unfermentable sugars create more body, 100% fermentable sugar drys a beer out. So, by that logic I am assuming that yes, alcohol should balance out sweetness. Which is pretty much the question I was asking

Imo, at this point, adding 100% fermentable sugar will just result in a higher octane sweet beer, thinner but still unbalanced...

Cheers!

 

[CrystalShip]

Actually, I also figured the gravity was a result of the specialty malts. With a pound of caramel 120, it's probably going to taste a bit sweet.

I really don't recommend amylase with this beer though. 68% attenuation really isn't that big of a deal, and a full-bodied can be nice. Amylase will slowly, but eventually, dry it out to a thin, lifeless beer. Not as noticeable with pale ales and IPAs, but it defimitely will be with an RIS.

Especially with all the specialty malt, most yeast strains aren't going to go much further than 68% no matter how you try to get them active. So what I can suggest is hitting it with another yeast strain - Wyeast 3711 will make short work of any fermentables remaining. 3711 is an absolute freak... no other strain attenuates quite like it.

Unfortunately, there's really no way to deal with too much crystal, but what's done is done. Other than what I suggested above, I strongly recommend just leaving it alone and treating it as a learning experience.

Yup, that's exactly what I was thinking! I'm a bit of a noob when it comes to formulating my own recipes. So the amylase enzyme won't stop until all of the sugars are broken down? You're right, this would be very bad in a stout... Thanks

 

[CrystalShip]

Imo, at this point, adding 100% fermentable sugar will just result in a higher octane sweet beer, thinner but still unbalanced...

Cheers!

Yea, after talking it over with a friend of mine i came to the same conclusion, not to mention that that it's kind of a cheapskate way out... :cross:

 

[CrystalShip]

Ok, so I went to the homebrew shop in search of wyeast 3711 which they did not have. So, I bought some yeast energizer and a pack of champagne yeast. I boiled some of the yeast energizer and rehydrated the champagne yeast and pitched it into the Carboy the. Gave it a vigorous swirl so we shall see what happens!

 

[emjay]

Champagne yeast is generally only helpful if other yeasts have stalled due to too high of an ABV. I don't think that's the case here though...

Champagne yeast actually doesn't even ferment beer as well as most beer strains will, because it's
completely unable to ferment the more complex fermentables such as maltotriose and (I think, but I'm not feeling 100% sure on this right now) maltose. This is significant, because yeast ferments sugars in a pretty specific order (increasing complexity), with maltose and maltotriose being the last ones. When it's already fermented 70 points, and you probably won't even be able to knock off another 10, you can be pretty sure that these sugars are all that's left. Ale and lager strains already have a bit more difficulty fermenting these more complex sugars, but for champagne strains it's a physical impossibility - they completely lack the necessary enzymes.

Thankfully, champagne yeast isn't too expensive. And who knows... maybe the yeast energizer will help it knock off a couple more points.

 

[emjay]

BTW... I spoke too soon about there not being a way to deal with too much crystal. There is, but you might not find it worth the trouble.

It's a really simple idea, actually - brew the same beer without ANY crystal (use another pound of 2-row instead), maybe using an even lower mash temp, and then blend it. You can do it either before, during, or after fermentation, though the *best* thing you could probably do is either blend it during high krausen, or take a gallon or so of the 2nd batch during high krausen, add it to the first batch, and let them finish out before blending the whole thing.

Of course, this is going to result in 10gal of RIS, so it's not a solution for everyone.

 

[seabass07]

Adding more yeast will only help if your yeast have given up. It doesnt sound like thats the case.

Amylase can only go so far. It wont make all of that crystal fermentable. I see it as about equal to a low mash temp and mashing for several hours at 145 wouldnt make crystal completely fermentable. It isnt like beano that will just keep breaking everything down. But you have no control over it so its only a good idea if your beer is undrinkable in its current state since it will give you a drier beer.

 

[CrystalShip]

Yea, the champagne yeast didn't do anything but fall to the bottom of the Carboy lol! So, I just decided to rack it on to my maker's mark drenched oak chips. my friend has a good taste for stouts and says that it tastes no sweeter than Oskar blues ten fidy, so that works for me!