Imp. Stout and sodium?

[Rob2010SS]

What is the highest amount of sodium you'd want in an imperial stout?

Working on building the water profile (Bru'n Water) and I cannot get the sodium down below 135 while keeping the mash pH at 5.5.

If I switch to Pickling Lime, it jacks up the calcium through the roof.

Thoughts?

 

[VikeMan]

Several years ago, I (with a small group) did a taste test, adding salt to a smaller (not imperial) stout, namely Young's Double Chocolate stout. Maybe the notes will help. (The reference to a chocolate covered pretzel was because I was contemplating just such a recipe at the time.)
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Added NaCl to cold (about 45F) samples of stout to get Na at four concentrations...

119 ppm Na: Slightly more intense chocolate/malt flavor as compared with control (estimated at 20 ppm IIRC), but not identifiably salty.

237 ppm Na: Even more intense flavor, just slightly subjectively salty. But I'm not completely sure I would have said salty if I didn't know what the test was about.

356 ppm Na: Clearly has a salty flavor component now, but not overwhelming by any stretch

475 ppm Na: More salty, but still not overwhelming or unpleasant at all. Complements the chocolate nicely, but not as salty as an actual chocolate covered pretzel.
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[Rob2010SS]

Ok. Awesome notes! Thanks. That helps a ton

 

[Yooper]

Why the pickling lime? To increase the pH? (old eyes here, can't see it!)
A good mash pH would be about 5.5 or so.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Yeah I was shooting for 5.5 ph. However using just baking soda jacked up my sodium levels and too much pickling lime jacked up the calcium levels. This was the best of both worlds

 

[Vale71]

That's a big issue when brewing with lots of roast malts and RO water. My advice is to forget the baking soda and the lime and do the remaining additions at the end of boil just for flavor. Mash PH will probably still be on the low end but you'll have to come to terms with it.

 

[thehaze]

I've went up to 150 ppm Na in the mash for some beers, and they did not turn salty. You need slightly more than that. VikeMan's notes seem also to be on par with my own experience, especially when these Na levels are found in a complex, multi layered beer with lots of crystal and roasted malts. But from the screenshot, it seems like you start with RO water, which doesn't really help when brewing dark beers. A higher mineral content water would most likely allow you to adjust pH using less baking soda.

 

[Rob2010SS]

That's a big issue when brewing with lots of roast malts and RO water. My advice is to forget the baking soda and the lime and do the remaining additions at the end of boil just for flavor. Mash PH will probably still be on the low end but you'll have to come to terms with it.

You said at the end of the boil, but you mean at the end of the mash, no?

 

[Vale71]

No I do mean at the end of the boil.

 

[Rob2010SS]

I've heard of adding roasted malts at the end of the mash but never at the end of the boil. Do you just treat it like steeping grains then? You probably wouldn't do it at boiling temps, right?

 

[VikeMan]

I've heard of adding roasted malts at the end of the mash but never at the end of the boil.

I believe @Vale71 meant add the kettle salts (not the roasted grains) at the end of the boil.

IMO, you can add the kettle salts to the kettle at any time.

 

[couchsending]

I’ve always wondered if there was a difference if you added kettle salts at the beginning or the end of the boil. Is there any chemical reaction that would benefit from adding them at the beginning, specifically Ca salts? Would you get a bigger pH drop?

 

[mabrungard]

If you’re using the free version of Bru’n Water, the reported sodium content is for the mash. But that level will be reduced when the sparging water is added. The supporters version of Bru’n Water accounts for the sparging dilution and it reports the kettle concentrations. Don’t be too concerned with mash sodium content in the hundred plus range since it will be moderated in the kettle.

 

[Rob2010SS]

If you’re using the free version of Bru’n Water, the reported sodium content is for the mash. But that level will be reduced when the sparging water is added. The supporters version of Bru’n Water accounts for the sparging dilution and it reports the kettle concentrations. Don’t be too concerned with mash sodium content in the hundred plus range since it will be moderated in the kettle.

Thanks Martin. Appreciate it.