I'm tired of getting screwed on "outdated" CO2 tanks

[CodeSection]

I went back to the LHBS and handed over the tank for exchange without saying anything. I wanted to see what would happen. The owner was working. He carried the tank closer to the back, carefully inspected the expiration date, and then brought it back. He told me it expired last month, told me how to read the tank, and said he thinks he can "slip it by" the refill place he works with without charging me a fee, but I "needed to be more careful."

I told him I got the tank from his store, and he said if I got it like a year ago it could expire while I had it. I told him I got it from his store two months ago, and he said "oh really, well sometimes if someone else is working here they might not notice the date, so make sure you check it and call us out if one will expire in a few months." I just rolled my eyes inside my head.

He then gave me a replacement tank that was stamped "12A13". I told the owner "so, this tank expired a year ago, right?" He said probably not, it was probably recertified, but couldn't find another stamp, said "that's weird" and gave me a brand new tank manufactured 6 months ago.

I can't say the LHBS is trying to screw me, but they clearly aren't paying attention to the dates and putting the onus on the customer to check rather than the store. Which isn't a great business practice. Plus considering they had a tank that expired a year ago they aren't checking the tanks from their supplier, and either they don't go through many 5 lb tanks or their supplier clearly doesn't care about recert dates, which makes it even poopytier that the LHBS is such a stickler about the recert dates and happy to charge a $40 fee when they find an out of date tank.

Wow. In the future, I would use another LHBS. I believe the owner step over the "business ethics" line as soon as he started trying to convince you the 12A13 was "probably" not expired and was "probably" recertified without any evidence that was the case.

His pattern of behavior and responses to you on what happened a couple of months ago and now are clearly intentional and have nothing to do with not paying attention. If it was his ineptness, he would not have tried to convince you to accept the 12A13 expired tank. What a schmuck...

 

[dwhite60]

Former employer of mine had a probably 200 gallon main tank on the compressed air system that, no lie, was made from riveted steel plate. I was working there in the 1990's, not the 1940's. Building engineer said the tank had to have been made in the early part of the century. Boiler inspector would come in every year and wince when he saw it.

All the Best,
D. White

 

[specialkayme]

I believe the owner step over the "business ethics" line as soon as he started trying to convince you the 12A13 was "probably" not expired and was "probably" recertified without any evidence that was the case.

To be clear, he wasn't trying to convince me the 12A13 was recertified without any evidence. He made the comment as he was looking over the tank, thinking there would be another stamp somewhere that evidenced the tank was retested but I had missed it. Not finding another stamp, he gave me a fresh bottle and said "good catch."

Although it shouldn't have been my job to catch.

I was talking to him a bit while I waited on another customer ahead of me to gather up his things. The owner made it clear to me that he doesn't supply to anyone that actually knows what they're talking about. He said of the members in the local brew club (there are actually two near by) he doesn't supply any of them. He wasn't even aware one won the Gambrinus Award this past year at NHC. They all buy online. He really only sells to first time brewers (1/3rd beer, 1/3rd wine, and 1/3rd distilling, which I thought was interesting considering ABS in Raleigh doesn't even supply distilling, and does maybe 5% wine from what I can tell). After these experiences, it doesn't surprise me. The owner even turned to the guy infront of me in line and said "Like this guy (pointing to me), he doesn't buy from me. He probably buys everything online or in bulk. The only thing he buys from me is CO2, which he can't buy online. Everything else is cheaper for him online." He isn't wrong, but it's shocking to me that he's aware of what the problem is but is unwilling to do anything about it. It can't be a viable business model in a city of 300,000 to make a sustainable living off supplying to first time brewers only.

There are 3 HBS in the area, and sadly this one is the best. One is a hydroponic store that has homebrew supplies. They had a packet of liquid yeast that was a year out of date and they tried to convince me it would be fine anyway. I saw mold in a grain bin once. The other one is a great guy, but he tried to expand his HBS into a combo brewery, and lacks the capital to run and operate both. So he cut his HBS inventory way back, and cut back on his open hours. If you want a recipe, he makes you fill an online form or call ahead with an order and pick it up during preset times, typically 8 or so hours are available in any given week (Friday and Saturday 11-5 or so). No other times. You can't sort through the grains yourself. Not an option. That's the whole point of going to a HBS in my opinion. Opening the grain bins, taste everything, smell everything, experience everything. If I wanted to call in an order I'd have it delivered to my door.

So looks like I'll make the drive to Raleigh (1+ hour each way) whenever I want something in the future.

 

[CodeSection]

....I was talking to him a bit while I waited on another customer ahead of me to gather up his things. The owner made it clear to me that he doesn't supply to anyone that actually knows what they're talking about. He said of the members in the local brew club (there are actually two near by) he doesn't supply any of them. He wasn't even aware one won the Gambrinus Award this past year at NHC. They all buy online. He really only sells to first time brewers (1/3rd beer, 1/3rd wine, and 1/3rd distilling, which I thought was interesting considering ABS in Raleigh doesn't even supply distilling, and does maybe 5% wine from what I can tell). After these experiences, it doesn't surprise me. The owner even turned to the guy infront of me in line and said "Like this guy (pointing to me), he doesn't buy from me. He probably buys everything online or in bulk. The only thing he buys from me is CO2, which he can't buy online. Everything else is cheaper for him online."....

What a novel idea on how to increase sales and business, calling you out in front of another person (new brewer?) and indicating to the customer ahead of you that he can buy cheaper online....He still is a schmuck.

 

[soccerdad]

The local welding supply owns my tank. I paid a deposit on it. I take it to them if it needs refill and they change it out. Cert and recert is up to them.

 

[specialkayme]

What a novel idea on how to increase sales and business, calling you out in front of another person (new brewer?) and indicating to the customer ahead of you that he can buy cheaper online....

Exactly my thought! The first thought that popped in my head was "how are you still in business?"

The local welding supply owns my tank. I paid a deposit on it. I take it to them if it needs refill and they change it out. Cert and recert is up to them.

What size tank?

 

[Bobby_M]

I run a very fair deal. Bring me an out of hydro tank and pay the $20 recert fee which is exactly what it costs me. Once you have a branded brewhardware tank, we never check the date again. $20 swaps from then on.

Even the place that hydro tests our tanks would charge a walk in more than we do.

 

[mulletmaster]

This makes me think you are in the Greensboro area dealing with the place by the railroad tracks?

To be clear, he wasn't trying to convince me the 12A13 was recertified without any evidence. He made the comment as he was looking over the tank, thinking there would be another stamp somewhere that evidenced the tank was retested but I had missed it. Not finding another stamp, he gave me a fresh bottle and said "good catch."
...
So looks like I'll make the drive to Raleigh (1+ hour each way) whenever I want something in the future.

 

[z-bob]

Doesn't the 'A' mean it's a 10 year certification instead of the normal 5 years?

 

[soccerdad]

What size tank?

5 pound?

Whoops .. sorry, I read O2 in the original. But same is true. I exchange 20 pound co2 at the welding supply and they own the tank.

 

[Bobby_M]

Doesn't the 'A' mean it's a 10 year certification instead of the normal 5 years?

No. A five pointed star after the date is the 10 year. The "A" is just the agency that certified that particular hydro testing company.

 

[BruceH]

Call around to welding shops. Surely there is one nearby with a humane swap policy.

My local chain is Central Welding. I can bring in any standard-size cylinder and they swap it for a filled one without even checking the date on it. My local homebrew shop even works with them, so I can swap at the shop if I wish.

Now if you have a shiny tank you want to keep, then you may have to travel much farther and pay more to find a place that fills. I've given up on owning CO2 tanks, I just swap ugly ones as needed.

Bought my tank from Central Welding. They told me they will fill on site for me or I can swap. As long as the tank has the Central Welding sticker on it they will always swap and I'll always have a current cert. The tank I purchased had just been recerted and looks new.

 

[specialkayme]

@BruceH You're lucky. Most welding shops won't deal with a tank smaller than 20# around me. At least last time I called around two years ago.

 

[odie]

I'm pretty sure most gas suppliers have the recert factored into the price. Air Gas here just swaps tanks out. If I swap a "pool" tank or get my personal tank filled the cost was the same last time I read my bill. If a tank comes in expired they just give you a pre-filled one and they recert the old one and put it back in circulation I think.

As for your LHBS charging you to recert their tanks is BS. Them taking your old expired tank and charging you a recert for it but then at the same time exchanging it for another of theirs that will expire in 2 months so they can charge you a recert again when you bring their old tank back is just plain fraud.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm pretty sure most gas suppliers have the recert factored into the price. Air Gas here just swaps tanks out. If I swap a "pool" tank or get my personal tank filled the cost was the same last time I read my bill. If a tank comes in expired they just give you a pre-filled one and they recert the old one and put it back in circulation I think.

As for your LHBS charging you to recert their tanks is BS. Them taking your old expired tank and charging you a recert for it but then at the same time exchanging it for another of theirs that will expire in 2 months so they can charge you a recert again when you bring their old tank back is just plain fraud.

I wouldn't assume malice right away. I struggled to find the fair policy for about a year before it finally clicked. I didn't initially charge for out of date tanks but then everyone just dumped their expired tanks on me. Word gets around far and wide that it was a place you could get rid of them. Here I was making $10 on the swap and paying $20 to recert the tank.

Then I started charging for recert and running into the same problem as the "evil LHBS" in this thread. I'd charge the fee and grab a full tank off the shelf. In theory, if the customer paid for recert they should get the newest tank available but that's a major pain in the ass to dig through tanks to look for the newest date. Not only that, it was often that the out of hydro tank was a nice shiny aluminum and the newest date I had was a rusty steel tank. What if the newest tank I had left only had 2 years left?

The solution is to eat the hydro costs forever as long as you have one of my tanks. If you bring me an old tank, you only pay the recert once to get into the system or you buy an in-date tank from me initially. It's fair but not intuitive immediately.

 

[odie]

If I’m paying for a recert I want that tank then. I’m entitled to the entire recert life that I paid for.

If you give me a half life tank in return charge me half.

 

[Imhoppy]

If I’m paying for a recert I want that tank then. I’m entitled to the entire recert life that I paid for.

If you give me a half life tank in return charge me half.

If you want that tank, buy a new one for, say $70. So your tank really costs $50 plus $20 for the initial "cert". When I pay to recertify, I get the full 5 years and then some. Fill it at 4 years 11 months and several months of use after the 5 year point, it gets recertified and refilled. Considering the cost of all your brewing hardware, the cost of owning your own tank is not really going to bankrupt you too much.

Plus, you know where your tank has been and how it has been handled. My tanks have not been dropped or stored in a barnyard manure pit (unless stored/handled that way at the factory lol).

 

[odie]

I own a brand new tank. The gas place was very eager to swap it out for a already filled used one. I declined and waited on mine back.

I also own several older tanks that I do swap out even though the recerts are only a year old.

Those propane exchanges are the same way. Swap out any old or not so old tank. Recertification costs are always figured in and average d out over all the tanks. It’s a factored in cost of business.

If you are gonna charge a recert on an exchange then your customer should get a newly recerted tank or that same tank back.

I bring u a 1 year old tank and u swap me a 4.5 year old tank are u gonna credit me 3.5 years of recert? I doubt it.

 

[BBBF]

I picked up a free 20# that expired back in 1997; it's showing about 675psi and feels like it may still have some liquid in it, but what are my options once it's empty? I know I can try to find a place that might swap it out and hope they aren't paying attention to the date but that feels dishonest. Or I can take it to a place that refills and pay the recert. fee, which would still be a deal. Is it reasonable to hope that a tank made in 1981 that is now 22 years past its last test might pass again? I guess if it fails and they condemn it I'm not really out anything. It did come with an old Taprite that I can rebuild, which looks to be in pretty good shape.

What part of Chicago are you in? I know a place that swaps out 20# tanks from Praxair and they don't aren't too worried about dates, as long as the tank looks to be good.

 

[Jayjay1976]

What part of Chicago are you in? I know a place that swaps out 20# tanks from Praxair and they don't aren't too worried about dates, as long as the tank looks to be good.

I split my time between downtown and out in the west burbs, Schaumburg area.

 

[BBBF]

PM incoming

 

[Jayjay1976]

Thanks!

 

[william_shakes_beer]

The fundamental question underlying this thread is " who owns the tank?" If the user purchases the tank it's their responsibility to have it recertified. That also means the user is entitled to get that particular tank back. If the gas service does swap only, they can't claim the user owns the tank.

If the service owns the tank the user should have the right to recover their deposit if and when they no longer wish to use the tank. In that case recert is the responsibility of the gas service.

In reality, most major gas services have equipment and technicians on hand to pressure test and recert tanks. When I paid my "deposit" and got my first tank, the service said they owned the tank and would take care of recerts. He also told me that he routinely recerted and refilled tanks more than 50 years old. Its a convenience to the gas service to swap tanks. They don't need to have a tech available all hours to refill on demand. They can anticipate their business for the upcoming week and stockpile refilled tanks to satisfy that need.

 

[specialkayme]

The fundamental question underlying this thread is " who owns the tank?"

Agreed, but a fundamental question doesn't always result in a fundamental answer.

Take for example this HBS in particular. They swap tanks. Which means if I own a tank, I can turn my tank in and get a replacement filled tank. I then own the replacement tank as a result of the like kind exchange. But what happens if you don't own a tank and need one? The HBS will charge you a "deposit" on the tank you take. Presumably, the HBS owns the tank. Whenever you bring it back in, you get your "deposit" back. Much like commercial kegs. And much like commercial kegs, you don't have to return their tank, you could return a different tank and get your deposit back. So you should be able to return any tank in order to get a deposit back.

Except you can't. I had a 2.5 lb tank the last time I went into the LHBS. It's too small for me. I asked him if I could exchange it for a 5 lb tank (I presumed he would give me a credit for the "deposit" of the 2.5 lb tank, then charge me the "deposit" on the 5 lb tank, $20 more, then the refill fee). He said no. He wouldn't take the tank. He offered to "sell" me a new 5 lb tank, but wouldn't take the 2.5 lb tank. I asked why he was going to "sell" me a tank, when his price sheet says you need to put a "deposit" down, and he brushed it off. So to this store, who really owns the tank?

ABS for example doesn't swap tanks (unless your's is out of date and you're "in a pinch"), they refill yours. It's your tank. You buy one (or bring one in) and they fill it. But once you bought it, it's yours, and the responsibility to get it recertified is yours.

So what happens if you buy a tank from a place that presumes you own it, but get it "refilled" at a place that presumes you don't?