I'm losing my mind over this

[ja09]

Now, hold up a second. Perhaps because I am joining this thread after months of frustration endured by others I have a bit more optimism, but this seems like an easy fix. A good pH meter will run $80-100. The scale is only $10-20. A quick lesson on how to use the Bru'n water sheet properly and this problem might be solved.

Yes, it would be an easy fix, for any rational person. You don't know who you're dealing with here.

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[uatuba]

You haven't had time to tell if the problem is the same or not, regarding the batch you brewed with distilled.

 

[MrHadack]

LovesIPA, one of the big take-aways here is that additions to the water should vary greatly depending upon the style of beer you're brewing as well as the types of grain you're using. Roasted grains and crystal malts are acidic and will drive down the pH of the mash. You have a few of those in the recipe you just posted, which is partly why your pH dropped so low.

The way to use the spreadsheet is to enter your grain bill on the "mash acidification" tab, including the Lovibond number for each grain, as well as whether it is a base malt, crystal, or roast. The sheet will then be able to predict the pH of the mash properly. Once you see what the distilled water and grain is without any additions, you can use the sheet to add various additions to get the Ca and Sulfates where you want them, while making sure the pH hits the number you want.

Additionally, sparge water should be under 6 pH. That's why the sheet calculates it separately and also has a tab dedicated to the sparge acidity. Tannin extraction is MOST dependent upon the pH of the water, not the gravity or the temperature. That's why in my recommendations above, the only place I needed to add the lactic acid was to the sparge water.

I have attached two PDFs of the Bru'n Water Spreadsheet with your grain bill and recipe entered for a 100% distilled water batch. I entered all the additions I recommended above so you can see how everything works out on paper.

View attachment LovesIPA Chemistry Sheet.pdf

View attachment LovesIPA Chemistry Sheet2.pdf

 

[MrHadack]

LovesIPA, just for the record, these are the PDFs that show the water profile of the beer you made so you can see the low pH and the extremely high sulfate amounts that resulted.

Because you made the same additions in the same amounts to the sparge water which was greater in volume, you essentially created two completely different water profiles so I couldn't include it. But from my estimates, I believe your sparge water had the following profile:

pH: 5.4
Ca: 136
Sulfate: 327

View attachment LovesIPA BAD ADDITIONS.pdf

View attachment LovesIPA BAD ADITIONS 2.pdf

 

[divrguy]

Let me just say... I thinks it's all BS... Here's a summary!

I am absolutely stumped at why my beer continues to taste bad

I took apart the regulator last week and cleaned it. I didn't find a speck of dirt in it

I was at one of my favorite bars last night and had a pint of 101 North's Heroine IPA. I ordered a second one and had to wait for them to change the keg. The second pint tasted weird and had the same flavor profile to it that my beers have

C02? ...Yes, I've tried two different places

I've taken it to a LHBS and a brewpub/LHBS. They said they liked it and didn't taste anything wrong.

So sorry it wasn't what you were looking for. Maybe you feel better wasting someone's time with your useless post.

I didn't change the buckets - the beer was great out of the fermentor, but every piece of plastic that touched the beer post-fermentation was replaced. The list is pretty short - the only plastic or rubber pieces that the beer touches are the autosiphon and the keezer lines. Both of which I already replaced while trying to track this problem down.

I really think that the keg cleaning issue was it. The dry-hopping issue is separate from what I can tell. Now, the beers I make that aren't dry-hopped are coming out really good.

Water tastes fine. It's not the water

All equipment has been replaced

I've replaced everything multiple times

Oh I forgot to mention. I bleach bombed all my fermenters.

But since my batches are now coming out of the fermenter tasting bad, I it points me even more toward an infection, but this time I think it's coming from the plastic in the buckets.

In some cases, yes. I have seen white pellicle forming on top of batches

At this point, batches are not tasting good out of the fermenter, either.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This stuff aint really that hard but you seem to find a way to make it harder! Or are you just joshing...

Since I don't know you... I would swear we are all being punk'd and you are just off your rocker...but I don't know you and maybe you seriously need a new hobby.. No offense!


Cheers!

 

[BigAndo]

Let me just say... I thinks it's all BS... Here's a summary!

I am absolutely stumped at why my beer continues to taste bad

I took apart the regulator last week and cleaned it. I didn't find a speck of dirt in it

I was at one of my favorite bars last night and had a pint of 101 North's Heroine IPA. I ordered a second one and had to wait for them to change the keg. The second pint tasted weird and had the same flavor profile to it that my beers have

C02? ...Yes, I've tried two different places

I've taken it to a LHBS and a brewpub/LHBS. They said they liked it and didn't taste anything wrong.

So sorry it wasn't what you were looking for. Maybe you feel better wasting someone's time with your useless post.

I didn't change the buckets - the beer was great out of the fermentor, but every piece of plastic that touched the beer post-fermentation was replaced. The list is pretty short - the only plastic or rubber pieces that the beer touches are the autosiphon and the keezer lines. Both of which I already replaced while trying to track this problem down.

I really think that the keg cleaning issue was it. The dry-hopping issue is separate from what I can tell. Now, the beers I make that aren't dry-hopped are coming out really good.

Water tastes fine. It's not the water

All equipment has been replaced

I've replaced everything multiple times

Oh I forgot to mention. I bleach bombed all my fermenters.

But since my batches are now coming out of the fermenter tasting bad, I it points me even more toward an infection, but this time I think it's coming from the plastic in the buckets.

In some cases, yes. I have seen white pellicle forming on top of batches

At this point, batches are not tasting good out of the fermenter, either.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This stuff aint really that hard but you seem to find a way to make it harder! Or are you just joshing...

Since I don't know you... I would swear we are all being punk'd and you are just off your rocker...but I don't know you and maybe you seriously need a new hobby.. No offense!


Cheers!

I am starting to wonder. The OP claims to be logical and methodical, but I can't see where! Lol


Sent from my iPod touch using Home Brew

 

[TimmyWit]

LovesIPA, one of the big take-aways here is that additions to the water should vary greatly depending upon the style of beer you're brewing as well as the types of grain you're using. Roasted grains and crystal malts are acidic and will drive down the pH of the mash. You have a few of those in the recipe you just posted, which is partly why your pH dropped so low.

The way to use the spreadsheet is to enter your grain bill on the "mash acidification" tab, including the Lovibond number for each grain, as well as whether it is a base malt, crystal, or roast. The sheet will then be able to predict the pH of the mash properly. Once you see what the distilled water and grain is without any additions, you can use the sheet to add various additions to get the Ca and Sulfates where you want them, while making sure the pH hits the number you want.

Additionally, sparge water should be under 6 pH. That's why the sheet calculates it separately and also has a tab dedicated to the sparge acidity. Tannin extraction is MOST dependent upon the pH of the water, not the gravity or the temperature. That's why in my recommendations above, the only place I needed to add the lactic acid was to the sparge water.

I have attached two PDFs of the Bru'n Water Spreadsheet with your grain bill and recipe entered for a 100% distilled water batch. I entered all the additions I recommended above so you can see how everything works out on paper.

Great post MrHadack. You have gone above and beyond sir.

 

[MrHadack]

The reason nothing makes sense is he's been fighting more than one problem at different points along the way and doesn't know it. That's my opinion anyway.

The first problem was his water. He had off flavors from the Glacier vending machines he was using. The article I linked to earlier pointed out they had amounts of chlorine and other minerals that exceeded the state guidelines for drinking water. There was even a law suit against Glacier for it. It involved the machines that were tested in his immediate geographical area. This was his source water. Of course it would cause off flavors. He just ruled them out right away because he assumed they had to be fine.

Next, when he finally gets around to using other water sources, he absolutely kills his mash pH and raises his sulfates to ridiculous levels like 500 ppm. Of course he ends up with off flavors again, and as he notes, now it "tastes bad out of the fermenter too." He chalks this up to a wild spreading infection that's getting into everything including his auto-siphon, completely ignoring the fact that once again, his water is complete crap, only this time by his own doing. And that's not speculation-- that's fact based on chemistry and what he posted above for grain bill, water additions, etc, on his distilled water batch.

His problem can't be infection. When I first started kegging, for 2 years I never took my keg apart. 12-15 batches, and the only thing I did to sanitize my keg was throw in an ounce of iodophor and fill with water. I let it sit for 30 minutes, dumped it out, gave it a rinse with a hose, and poured in the beer. Never had an infection. I dry hop, rack, ferment, and mill my grains in the same small basement room of my house. I never got an infection from that. When I rack to secondary, I fill a slop sink with cold water, add an ounce of iodophor, and sit my tubes and auto-siphon in there for 5 minutes, give them a rinse and use them. Same with my brew bucket, and it doesn't even submerge fully because the slop sink isn't deep enough. I just rotate it every 30 seconds so the iodophor water gets on every surface. Give it a rinse and I am good to go. Never an infection. I don't even own star-san. Never used it. I have been doing this 5+ years. There's no way he can be getting that many infections when his process is much more thorough than mine.

 

[MrHadack]

Great post MrHadack. You have gone above and beyond sir.

Thanks... I'm trying. I feel bad for the guy. I think he's genuinely frustrated. But like I just posted, I think it isn't one problem but several that he's created in his pursuit of the first which no longer even exists.

 

[LovesIPA]

I feel like you guys are dragging me around in circles.

Who said that I normally put a crapload of gypsum into distilled water???? It certainly wasn't me. I did this ONCE, for a poster in this thread who INSISTED that my water profile was the cause. I thought it was a stupid idea personally but I wanted to prove that the water wasn't the problem. Yes, I know it's far too much gypsum. I have never added that much gypsum to a batch EVER and I probably never will again.

A typical water profile that I use is this:

Ca+ 54 ppm
Mg+ 10.4 ppm
SO4- 101.2 ppm
Cl- 55 ppm

I already know how to use Bru 'n' water. I create a water profile for each and every batch depending on the style.

 

[LovesIPA]

Now, hold up a second. Perhaps because I am joining this thread after months of frustration endured by others I have a bit more optimism, but this seems like an easy fix. A good pH meter will run $80-100. The scale is only $10-20. A quick lesson on how to use the Bru'n water sheet properly and this problem might be solved.

I already own a gram scale.

I already know how to use Bru 'n' water.

I do not have pH meter though. It has been on my list of stuff to get for a while.

Yes, it would be an easy fix, for any rational person. You don't know who you're dealing with here.

What a good post with some great advice MrHadack! OP, do you see the time and effort people are putting into YOUR problem... all because you're too bull headed to have this solved months ago.

However MrHadack, water profiles and ph adjustments are advanced brewing techniques, and the op has proven many different times he's not ready for that level of brewing. Keep it simple and build from there.

I am honestly quite tired of you talking out your ass and talking **** about me. In the future if you don't have anything helpful to say then please keep your childish BS out of this thread.

 

[LovesIPA]

You haven't had time to tell if the problem is the same or not, regarding the batch you brewed with distilled.

I guess if you want to get super picky, I have no way of proving if this batch has the exact same off-flavor. I can only rely on my own senses but as far as I can tell, the flavor and aroma is indistinguishable from other bad batches. I guess I will stop saying infected.

The reason nothing makes sense is he's been fighting more than one problem at different points along the way and doesn't know it. That's my opinion anyway.

I agree with you.

The first problem was his water. He had off flavors from the Glacier vending machines he was using. The article I linked to earlier pointed out they had amounts of chlorine and other minerals that exceeded the state guidelines for drinking water. There was even a law suit against Glacier for it. It involved the machines that were tested in his immediate geographical area. This was his source water. Of course it would cause off flavors. He just ruled them out right away because he assumed they had to be fine.

Yeah I had no idea they were getting sued. What about the TDS meter question that I posted earlier? Would that be of any use?

Next, when he finally gets around to using other water sources, he absolutely kills his mash pH and raises his sulfates to ridiculous levels like 500 ppm.

I agree that the water profile on that batch was just plain stupid. Again, I did it to prove it wasn't the water.

Of course he ends up with off flavors again, and as he notes, now it "tastes bad out of the fermenter too."

No, that batch was fine in the fermenter. It's not an off-flavor, the stuff is undrinkable. And it's the same flavor that it always has been.

He chalks this up to a wild spreading infection that's getting into everything including his auto-siphon, completely ignoring the fact that once again, his water is complete crap, only this time by his own doing. And that's not speculation-- that's fact based on chemistry and what he posted above for grain bill, water additions, etc, on his distilled water batch.

It sure it easy to pile on, isn't it? Please read the whole thread before you trash my process.

His problem can't be infection. When I first started kegging, for 2 years I never took my keg apart. 12-15 batches, and the only thing I did to sanitize my keg was throw in an ounce of iodophor and fill with water. I let it sit for 30 minutes, dumped it out, gave it a rinse with a hose, and poured in the beer. Never had an infection. I dry hop, rack, ferment, and mill my grains in the same small basement room of my house. I never got an infection from that. When I rack to secondary, I fill a slop sink with cold water, add an ounce of iodophor, and sit my tubes and auto-siphon in there for 5 minutes, give them a rinse and use them. Same with my brew bucket, and it doesn't even submerge fully because the slop sink isn't deep enough. I just rotate it every 30 seconds so the iodophor water gets on every surface. Give it a rinse and I am good to go. Never an infection. I don't even own star-san. Never used it. I have been doing this 5+ years. There's no way he can be getting that many infections when his process is much more thorough than mine.

That actually makes me feel a lot better.

Thanks... I'm trying. I feel bad for the guy. I think he's genuinely frustrated. But like I just posted, I think it isn't one problem but several that he's created in his pursuit of the first which no longer even exists.

[X] Genuinely frustrated.

 

[WayFrae]

So now just buy some spring water or distilled water (if you want to build it up), quit using the Glacier vending machines, and I think your problem is solved!

 

[dobe12]

The question must now be asked. Are you still using buckets, siphons, tubing, etc (anything plastic) that was used with infected batches? It sure sounds like you are.

 

[MrHadack]

I feel like you guys are dragging me around in circles.

Don't blame me. I just got here.

If you create a specific water profile for each batch then you should have known that it was bad advice to use that much gypsum and dismissed it. But if you're willing to follow advice which you knew was bad to begin with, why haven't you bottled a batch yet to rule out the keg as the problem?

The problem is you haven't been troubleshooting this very well at all. You have not approached this logically. I know you will take offense to that, but sometimes truth hurts. The fact you haven't bottled anything demonstrates this.

This is how you should have done it:

1. Brew a basic batch with distilled water. Water that you buy in a store that comes in a plastic jug. Not water from a Glacier vending machine.

2. Use your standard profile you just mentioned. In fact, before you brew, post your grain bill, strike water and sparge water amounts, and the additions in grams that you plan to make to each so everyone can agree they are correct. (When you make the additions to the water, and they are all dissolved, perhaps you can take a sample and send to Ward labs for analysis.)

3. After you boil, split the wort into TWO SEPARATE BATCHES. Cool each as normal. Use new yeast in one batch, and use your yeast in the other. Label which is which.

4. After fermentation, you will have two batches. Keg some of each batch separately like you normally do but also BOTTLE a bunch of each batch separately.

You now have essentially 4 separate batches:

1. Old yeast, bottled
2. Old yeast, kegged
3. New yeast, bottled
4. New yeast, kegged

This would help you eliminate potential causes, depending which have off-flavors and which do not. In one batch you will be able to isolate whether it was a yeast issue, a fermentation issue, or a kegging issue. Or, more importantly, none of them!

If they all have off flavors, then it is not the yeast, and it is not your keg. If your analysis from Ward Labs comes back with the right levels of everything that you predicted when building your water profile, you can safely rule that out.

There you go. ONE brew day would eliminate almost every concern you have and point you to whatever might be the actual culprit.

THAT'S how to troubleshoot it. If you do not do it this way, no one will be able to help you.

 

[TimmyWit]

LovesIPA, The frustration building up in this thread is getting you nowhere. Good on your for posting a recap. It makes it easier for others to follow as the thread is quite long.

In order to table some of the frustration, could you post exactly where you are and what your next step is? You do have a batch fermenting, right? When do you expect results from that batch? If your problem isn't solved, based on the information you have received here, what is your next step? When are you brewing again? Maybe we should let this thread rest for a while until you are able to report back with results.

 

[LovesIPA]

I have a brew day on Monday. I will follow your advice, thank you.

 

[MrHadack]

I have a brew day on Monday. I will follow your advice, thank you.

Awesome. I think this will really help shed some light on what's happening and you'll finally get some answers.

 

[ja09]

Don't blame me. I just got here.

If you create a specific water profile for each batch then you should have known that it was bad advice to use that much gypsum and dismissed it. But if you're willing to follow advice which you knew was bad to begin with, why haven't you bottled a batch yet to rule out the keg as the problem?

The problem is you haven't been troubleshooting this very well at all. You have not approached this logically. I know you will take offense to that, but sometimes truth hurts. The fact you haven't bottled anything demonstrates this.

This is how you should have done it:

1. Brew a basic batch with distilled water. Water that you buy in a store that comes in a plastic jug. Not water from a Glacier vending machine.

2. Use your standard profile you just mentioned. In fact, before you brew, post your grain bill, strike water and sparge water amounts, and the additions in grams that you plan to make to each so everyone can agree they are correct. (When you make the additions to the water, and they are all dissolved, perhaps you can take a sample and send to Ward labs for analysis.)

3. After you boil, split the wort into TWO SEPARATE BATCHES. Cool each as normal. Use new yeast in one batch, and use your yeast in the other. Label which is which.

4. After fermentation, you will have two batches. Keg some of each batch separately like you normally do but also BOTTLE a bunch of each batch separately.

You now have essentially 4 separate batches:

1. Old yeast, bottled
2. Old yeast, kegged
3. New yeast, bottled
4. New yeast, kegged

This would help you eliminate potential causes, depending which have off-flavors and which do not. In one batch you will be able to isolate whether it was a yeast issue, a fermentation issue, or a kegging issue. Or, more importantly, none of them!

If they all have off flavors, then it is not the yeast, and it is not your keg. If your analysis from Ward Labs comes back with the right levels of everything that you predicted when building your water profile, you can safely rule that out.

There you go. ONE brew day would eliminate almost every concern you have and point you to whatever might be the actual culprit.

THAT'S how to troubleshoot it. If you do not do it this way, no one will be able to help you.

Well said, again MrHadack

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[LovesIPA]

The question must now be asked. Are you still using buckets, siphons, tubing, etc (anything plastic) that was used with infected batches? It sure sounds like you are.

If you're following the thread, you'd see that there are some pretty knowledgeable people saying it's not an infection.

 

[WayFrae]

I have a brew day on Monday. I will follow your advice, thank you.

Wooohooo! Good luck LovesIPA! I think this next batch will be a relief for you when you figure out what is going on!

 

[LovesIPA]

Also, as I have said several times in this thread, the distilled water batch was fermented in a new bucket but I did re-use my auto-siphon.

 

[MrHadack]

Also, as I have said several times in this thread, the distilled water batch was fermented in a new bucket but I did re-use my auto-siphon.

You sanitized the auto-siphon between the two batches, right?

 

[Safa]

I think that many people are losing touch with what it feels like to be helpless in the face of crappy beer.

We've all been there, we've all been completely at a loss at least once.

We've all researched hysterically about a billion possible reasons behind our ruined beer, because, let's face it, it's downright UPSETTING when all your hard work results in nothing.

So let's take a minute to sympathize with LovesIPA, hand him a beer, and work through this together. After all this, this problem will eventually disappear inexplicably and all will return to normal. Such is life!




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[LovesIPA]

You sanitized the auto-siphon between the two batches, right?

Of course. I actually had a fermenter full of bleach and I used the autosiphon to drain the bleach out. Then I sanitized it.

 

[LovesIPA]

I think that many people are losing touch with what it feels like to be helpless in the face of crappy beer.

We've all been there, we've all been completely at a loss at least once.

We've all researched hysterically about a billion possible reasons behind our ruined beer, because, let's face it, it's downright UPSETTING when all your hard work results in nothing.

So let's take a minute to sympathize with LovesIPA, hand him a beer, and work through this together. After all this, this problem will eventually disappear inexplicably and all will return to normal. Such is life!




Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

Thank you for the words of encouragement!

 

[MrHadack]

Of course. I actually had a fermenter full of bleach and I used the autosiphon to drain the bleach out. Then I sanitized it.

Then it's completely irrelevant. Forget that as a potential cause and we'll move on.

 

[Zoidberg]

Then it's completely irrelevant. Forget that as a potential cause and we'll move on.

Thanks for this response, this is what I told myself a few months ago in a similar situation. I had an autosiphon also the last part of what i replaced after I had 3 infected in a row still unknown cause (questionable fermenter, grain powders, old siphon lines) still not sure.

I still have the same auto siphon and it wasn't an issue after a bleach bomb, rinse, repeat and sanitize. Small batch tests proved this.

New lines, fermenters, and learning from a mistake or two or three and I felt like no more batches were infected just to have a wild yeast infection, definitely different from first infection which was likely a lacto,in a yeast sample I harvested. No beers fermented with this yeast were sour or vinegary, they tasted like beer just highly attenuated, very thin and kinda bready beer. Not a bad wild yeast for a summer wheat. Facts that they attenuated very high, down to 1.001-1.0, and caused over carbonation made it appear like infection didn't figure this out until i did some small test batches with that yeast as suggested by a LHBS worker.

Then I had over carbed beers I thought were somehow still infected and replaced bottling bucket, spigots and bottling wand before I realized they really were overcarbed because of storage temps. The closet that was closer to 60-65 last summer is has suddenly been almost 75 probably since winter and heat turned on and probably runs through a wall near closet.

After all this I almost got as frustrated as this guy. Truly no disrespect meant, but this honestly made me feel better about how frustrating my experience was. Bad batches are very frustrating but just keep investigating and you'll uncover any issues causing the off flavors.

Good luck and let us know how this next brew goes.

 

[mrduna01]

Thanks for this response, this is what I told myself a few months ago in a similar situation. I had an autosiphon also the last part of what i replaced after I had 3 infected in a row still unknown cause (questionable fermenter, grain powders, old siphon lines) still not sure.

I still have the same auto siphon and it wasn't an issue after a bleach bomb, rinse, repeat and sanitize. Small batch tests proved this.

New lines, fermenters, and learning from a mistake or two or three and I felt like no more batches were infected just to have a wild yeast infection in a yeast sample I harvested. The facts that they attenuated very high, down to 1.001-1.0, made it appear like infection didn't figure this out until i did some small test batches with that yeast as suggested by a LHBS worker.

Then I had over carbed beers I thought were somehow still infected and replaced bottling bucket, spigots and bottling wand before I realized they really were overcarbed because of storage temps. The closet that was closer to 60-65 last summer is has suddenly been almost 75 probably since winter and heat turned on and probably runs through a wall near closet.

After all this I almost got as frustrated as this guy. Truly no disrespect meant, but this honestly made me feel better about how frustrating my experience was. Bad batches are very frustrating but just keep investigating and you'll uncover any issues causing the off flavors.

Good luck and let us know how this next brew goes.

Not to get off topic but I don't think temperature plays a role in amount of carbonation when bottle conditioning... the amount of sugar in the wort however does whether from too much priming sugar or an incomplete fermentation. The temp would only affect the speed of carbonation as I understand it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[LovesIPA]

Yeah heaven forbid we go off topic! lol