I'm gonna be RICH!

[Basilisk]

Well, probably not. Well, maybe for some other reason, but probably not cause of my idea for an invention. But I wanna put it out there anyway.

Right, my invention. Please tell me if this is retarded, or already done. I'm not sure how big a deal it is in beermaking, but being new to cider I've noticed that getting your cider to be the combination of sweet, carbonated, and storable (apparently that's not a real word), can be kind of annoying. It seems to boil down to a few options:
-Use artificial sweeteners to get it to the desired sweetness level, and just include a little bit of fermentable sugar in every bottle so it can carbonate the bottles...but artificial sweeteners are often kind of yucky.
-Use real sugar, halt the yeast with metabisulfite, and force carbonate with CO2...but that's too pricey for thrifty fellows like myself who use both sides of the toilet paper to save money.
-Add real sugar to desired sweetness, plus a little extra, before bottling, let the yeast ferment it, then check periodically to see if your bottles have reached the desired carbonation level, then pasteurize them on the stove when they have...but, if you're not making very large batches (I'm not), you end up going through a lot of it, and if you're not careful, you risk bottle bombs. And if you are, boiling a bunch of bottles is kind of time consuming.

So, BEHOLD:

Time release metabisulfite capsules? You'd add them, along with your sugar, at bottling. Their coating would be made of sugar, so it wouldn't change the taste of your drink. The yeast would eat it (they'd last a set amount of time), and then soon halt once they ate through. They'd come in different coating thicknesses, so you could have them last different amounts of time.

Even better: I don't know enough chemistry to know if this is possible, but maybe ones with a coating whose strength is dependent on the level of dissolved CO2 in the liquid. You could design them to wait until a threshold level of CO2, then boom, split open and halt fermentation at the perfect level.


If this is retarded, be only kind of mean please? If this has already been done, yay, I independently came up with a decent idea. If this hasn't been done, please don't steal my idea and get rich? Or if you do, at least buy me a car and cookies whenever I want?

What do you think?

 

[manoaction]

I think getting your coating to dissolve just right would be pretty darn difficult. At the very least, it would be inconsistent.

The bigger challenge would be to get the sulfate mixed into the cider while it was just sitting quietly in the closet. To mix in the powder, I would think you'd need to have it stirred/shaken.

Not a bad thought though.

 

[DannyD]

just a normal suger coat would not work, have to go into maybe some water soluble polyvinyl alcholols ?(dont know what it then would tast like)
but good base idee!

 

[discooby]

Ummm… good idea, not sure it would be cost effective, plus the chemistry research involved...though there are companies (I can think of one) that naturally bottle condition their ciders w/out chemicals and I hear it’s sweet. Keeving comes to mind. Cider, though simple, can get complex and most name brand companies take the easy way out by pasteurizing, adding artificial sweeteners w/color (caramel) and force carbing.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

You've invented the sulfite widget. Interesting idea, but tough to implement. Maybe a gelatin capsule as a delay. A microencapsulated powder could work, but unless you've got some money to play with, you'll need some financial backing just to get it done for the prototype, microencapsulation (far as I know) ain't easy or cheap. You could always use the Guiness widget design & just switch the nitrogen out for sulphur dioxide.
Regards, GF.

 

[smokinghole]

The biggest problem would be the variable of the solvent capabilities of the cider. Between different malic acid levels and alcohol levels would alter the time release ability. If you had a company and adjusted pH to a certain level and always bottle a certain abv that'd be one thing. Selling to a mass market where everyone makes it different would prove to have too many variables to provide consistent results, I think at least. Plus aren't sulfite drops supposed to be dropped in, and allowed to off gas for a few days? The SO2 developed in the beer/cider will dissipate out over time correct? So if you added it in a capped or corked bottle it would have no where to go and you'd end up with dissolved SO2 in your drink.

 

[DannyD]

just build a sterilizing tunnel

 

[biochemedic]

Barring people with lactose intolerance, In my ciders I've found that using lactose (which is unfermentable) is an excellent way to get a nice amount of residual sweetness and still bottle condition/carb with dextrose... And it doesn't have that ick flavor/aftertaste that accompanies many residual sweeteners.

However, as to the OP's idea...interesting, but I'd be worried that it would be unpredictable in terms of it's ability to halt fermentation...yeast can have a mind of their own sometimes. I think you'd need a pretty big disclaimer regarding the risk of bottle bombs!

 

[The_General]

I'm just spitballing here and don't know if it would be practical but why not make the release of metabisulfate dependent on pressure? In other words, your yeast will ferment some of the sugar to build up enough pressure to carbonate the cider. At that pressure, metabisulfate is released killing the yeast. The sugar left in the solution is enough to sweeten the cider.

I don't know how widely applicable it would be because it would assume that everyone wants to carbonate to the same pressure, etc. Plus I'd guess it would be a widget of some sort. Are people going to want to put that in each bottle?

 

[Denny]

The sulfite will slow, but not stop, fermentation.

 

[Yooper]

The sulfite will slow, but not stop, fermentation.

I don't know if it would even slow it- I know that wine yeast is extraordinarily tolerant of sulfites and it's routinely used at 50 ppm or more as an antioxidant in wines.

I've never done any experiments with ale yeast and metabisulfites, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was also tolerant of sulfites.

In order to slow/stop fermentation with sulfites, such a huge dose would be required as to render the cider totally undrinkable.

 

[HawksBrewer]

Maybe I'm way off, but you could just use Wyeast Sweet Mead yeast to make your cider.... that's what we did and it worked out well. Finished mildly sweet, drinkable, and YES, even stores well. Maybe we just got lucky, who knows.

 

[Basilisk]

I'm just spitballing here and don't know if it would be practical but why not make the release of metabisulfate dependent on pressure? In other words, your yeast will ferment some of the sugar to build up enough pressure to carbonate the cider. At that pressure, metabisulfate is released killing the yeast. The sugar left in the solution is enough to sweeten the cider.

I don't know how widely applicable it would be because it would assume that everyone wants to carbonate to the same pressure, etc. Plus I'd guess it would be a widget of some sort. Are people going to want to put that in each bottle?

Yeah, that's kinda what I was getting in my OP. Dunno how to make those things pressure dependent though.

 

[Yooper]

Yeah, that's kinda what I was getting in my OP. Dunno how to make those things pressure dependent though.

Do keep in mind that sulfites don't kill yeast, as was mentioned. You'd still get bottle bombs.

 

[hoppyhowie]

You should've patented it... now I'm Going to be RICH!!

 

[DannyD]

You should've patented it... now I'm Going to be RICH!!

hahahaa..........well, it looks like you gona have to spend a whole lot of bucks on R&D first, then hope people likes throughing funny things in there cider and then claim your prize

 

[raptorvan]

I suppose you could just force carbonate in a Ker then use one of those bottle fillers that keep the gas in.

 

[Stout-n-Braggot]

It's a lot of work, but the "méthode champenoise" has been used for centuries in France to make sweet sparkling wines of all sorts, the same technique would work for cidre as well.

 

[BBBF]

hahahaa..........well, it looks like you gona have to spend a whole lot of bucks on R&D first, then hope people likes throughing funny things in there cider and then claim your prize

Nah, he'll just wait until someone else makes it and then sue them.

 

[the_bird]

The cheapest solution?

Add a small dollop of simple syrup to the bottom of your glass before you pour your (dry) cider.

I'm not a winemaker, so I'll defer to Yooper on whether the sulfites would actually sufficiently slow down/stop the yeast; I suspect not enough to be safe.

Heck, if you're going through all the trouble to make these time-deferred sulfates, why not genetically engineer a yeast that can only work up to 5% or 6% ABV?

 

[Basilisk]

Do keep in mind that sulfites don't kill yeast, as was mentioned. You'd still get bottle bombs.

Ok, I must have misunderstood something huge in reading through the cider forum. Then what is the chemical they add to halt the yeast?

Nah, he'll just wait until someone else makes it and then sue them.

That's my secret plan, you've caught meeeeee

The cheapest solution?

Add a small dollop of simple syrup to the bottom of your glass before you pour your (dry) cider.

There are lots of things I could actually do that would work fine and be waaaay more practical than what I'm doing now. But I want to try and do things in a cool way. For example, when I have some friends come over and drink my cider, it's way cooler if they just open the bottle and drink than if I have to go around and pour syrup in their glasses.

Heck, if you're going through all the trouble to make these time-deferred sulfates, why not genetically engineer a yeast that can only work up to 5% or 6% ABV?

That's crazy talk. Don't be crazy.

 

[Yooper]

Ok, I must have misunderstood something huge in reading through the cider forum. Then what is the chemical they add to halt the yeast?

There is no such chemical.

But, in a finished fermentation, sorbate is used to inhibit yeast reproduction. It doesn't halt or kill yeast, but doesn't allow the yeast to reproduce so in a finished fermentation when there is little yeast in suspension it usually prevents fermentation from restarting when sweeteners are added.

The key is that there is very little yeast in suspension, and the wine/cider/mead is racked off of the lees. So if the yeast can't reproduce, it can't restart fermentation. It's not 100%, but it works most of the time. If fermentation is active, with active yeast, it won't work at all though.

 

[rstewy2]

I usually throw some in a plastic soda bottle and when thats rock hard, I throw the rest in the fridge. But I would buy whatever capsule/widget thing would do this just because it's that awesome of an idea.

 

[mvcorliss]

Never you mind all those naysayers! I'm with ya! You can do it!!!

And for a mere 25% of all future profit I will gladly provide you with 75% of my available moral support!

What do ya say? Partners???