I thought I "did it right"

[Mark Hansen]

I've made approx. 6 batches of brew (a mix of 5 and 10 gallon batches), and each has had this similar underlying Sherry flavor.

I've:
-changed water sources
-changed fermentation vessels
-utilized a secondary fermentation
-used a copper coil to chill after boil
-moved to a dark room for fermentation
-used temp controls for fermentation
-bounced back and forth between DME and LME (although DME seemed to make the biggest difference in reduction of Sherry flavor)
-ensured StarSan was on everything for appropriate times
-made sure everything was legitimately clean, not that lazy "wife's not looking" clean

I've made IPAs (they usually taste the best because they hide the Sherry flavor), a wheat beer, used blueberry flavoring in one, and made a pale ale... All of them had the same underlying flavor to varying degrees.

Typical brewing process:
-clean
-bring grains to temp & remove
-DME / LME with flame off
-strict hops schedule
-chill wort
-move to carboys
-move to fermentation area and leave

Fermentation always looks healthy, and I've never had an infection. Everything always smells great (smells like good beer aromas). And then Sherry shows up. Every time.

This most recent IPA is definitely drinkable, but the Sherry is almost overpowering the hops completely, and I brewed the Hoppiness Is An IPA recipe from Brewing Classic Styles.

 

[Yooper]

"Sherry" flavor is always caused by oxidation.

It's usually caused by handling after fermentation, say with racking and bottling or too much headspace in a vessel once fermentation slows.

Can you tell us about your cold-side process, which means once brewing is done and fermentation is underway. It could be something very simple.

 

[Mark Hansen]

Cold-side would look like this:
-usually split my batch between a 5 and a 6 gal carboy (when making a 10 gal batch)
-add water to make 5 gal each (tap, because using water from the store wasn't getting me anywhere in removing Sherry)
-carboy caps on each one
-hoses running to a sanitized solution
-fermentation goes on
-rack into kegs (sanitized cane and kegs)
-purge kegs
-set kegs to carb in kegerator

I don't splash my beer, but I do have one of those on-line filters on my racking cane to get out particles. Could that be it?

 

[pmoneyismyfriend]

I haven't posted here for quite some time. You will find some very knowledge people here. I have one thought, maybe the guy in Manitowoc, who gave you your BBW recipe, doesn't know what he is doing!

 

[eric19312]

@Yooper is likely right. Look for ways to eliminate possible oxygen exposure post pitching yeast.

Don’t secondary.
Make sure your racking cane isn’t leaking...should be no air bubbling in the racking cane or racking line.
Purge the kegs more. Purge before filling and then purge the headspace with like 10 blasts of CO2 at 30 PSI

also...check your ingredients. LME does go bad and goes bad faster than DME. Grains can also stale. Was your beer darker than expected? That is indication of staling.

 

[IslandLizard]

-DME / LME with knockout

-bounced back and forth between DME and LME (although DME seemed to make the biggest difference in reduction of Sherry flavor)

You already answered part of the riddle.

The age/freshness/storage of your LME plays a big role in flavor and aroma. Since LME contains water, it oxidizes much faster than DME, which is much more stable.
So, unless you know the LME is fresh, and has been stored cold in appropriate packaging, definitely switch to using DME only. Use (fresh) steeping grains for flavor and style. Not prepackaged premilled stuff that may have been on the shelf for years.

Use hops that were correctly packaged and stored. Vacuum sealed in mylar oxygen barrier (or multilayer) bags, and stored frozen.

-rack into kegs (sanitized cane and kegs) [...]
I don't splash my beer, but I do have one of those on-line filters on my racking cane to get out particles. Could that be it?

After fermentation starts, prevent exposing the beer to air/oxygen, especially during racking/transfers.

Look up 100% liquid pre-purging kegs before filling. With this method the kegs are 100% filled with CO2. Beer is transferred in through the liquid-out post. The lid remains on until the next cleaning.
Closed transfers are an extension on that.

On most racking canes you can stick a plastic or stainless "inverter tippy" on the bottom. It inverts the flow, beer being sucked in from the top not the trubby bottom.

Also, don't stick the racking cane all the way down into the trub layer. When you prepare for racking, stick the cane in about halfway, so the bottom/tippy is about halfway between the beer surface and trub layer. As the beer level drop during racking, slowly lower the cane accordingly. Toward the end, tilt the ferm vessel toward the cane so the well you're siphoning from remains deep, and limits beer left behind.

Right before or when you see trub and yeast starting to be sucked up, stop the transfer by pulling the liquid QD off the keg. That way you prevent air being sucked in and bubbling through the beer.
Any particles or yeast you inadvertently suck up should not cause oxidation/staling/sherry flavors.

Train yourself using this method with a bucket or carboy filled with water (or Starsan) until you get the knack of it. There may be a few small issues you need to be aware or take care of. Of course you don't need to 100% pre-purge the keg when training, save your CO2 for when it counts.

A few observations:

• Limit to 5 gallon (or smaller) batches until your oxidation issue is resolved. No sense brewing 10 gallons of oxidized beer.
• Can you do all grain?
• You may be extra sensitive to the effects of oxidation. Maybe start reading our LoDO subforum for other hints and info.

 

[Mark Hansen]

doesn't know what he is doing!

I had many ounces to prove otherwise!

@Yooper is likely right. Look for ways to eliminate possible oxygen exposure post pitching yeast.

Don’t secondary.
Make sure your racking cane isn’t leaking...should be no air bubbling in the racking cane or racking line.
Purge the kegs more. Purge before filling and then purge the headspace with like 10 blasts of CO2 at 30 PSI

also...check your ingredients. LME does go bad and goes bad faster than DME. Grains can also stale. Was your beer darker than expected? That is indication of staling.

I haven't done a secondary since my 2nd batch. Read a lot more, and realized it was unnecessary.

The racking cane is interesting - there are always bubble in my racking cane, but that's with me being on my second one. There were bubbles in the first one too. They are at the top where the plastic plunge piece heads into the tubing. There's about a 1.25" overlap of tubing on plunge piece.

My beer is always darker than I think it would be. I've always used Light LME, but have never created a golden beer. Always thought that was because I wasn't doing all-grain. I brewed a recipe from @pmoneyismyfriend, and he even thought the color was a little off when I sent him a final photo... maybe you're onto something. I've always bought my ingredients from the same LHBS.

 

[Day-Day]

Beer that's slightly darkened is a sign of oxidized beer. If you are already kegging and using carboys it's pretty easy to do closed transfers, you can build a setup for it or buy one for less than $50.

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/ptrcarboypremium.htm

I'd highly recommend just moving to all grain also, I've never been happy with my extract brews...they have always been a little to sweet and always kind of stale tasting.

 

[bracconiere]

you know, some people drink sherry? could always pitch it as a feature!

 

[Yooper]

I had an issue with carboy caps in some of my wines- I ended up putting a rubber band around the seal to seal it better after throwing away some wine I had aging in a carboy with a carboy cap, due to oxidation.
And yes, filtering through something on the racking cane could also contribute to oxidation.
Purge the kegs before filling,so you have 5 gallons of c02 instead of 5 gallons of oxygen.

 

[Kharnynb]

what does that inline filter look like?

 

[Mark Hansen]

So, unless you know the LME is fresh, and has been stored cold in appropriate packaging, definitely switch to using DME only. Use (fresh) steeping grains for flavor and style. Not prepackaged premilled stuff that may have been on the shelf for years.

Use hops that were correctly packaged and stored. Vacuum sealed in mylar oxygen barrier (or multilayer) bags, and stored frozen.

After fermentation starts, prevent exposing the beer to air/oxygen, especially during racking/transfers.

.....

Also, don't stick the racking cane all the way down into the trub layer.

.....

A few observations:

• Limit to 5 gallon (or smaller) batches until your oxidation issue is resolved. No sense brewing 10 gallons of oxidized beer.
• Can you do all grain?

How would I know freshness of the LME? When I talk to LHBS, they "turn over LME frequently, so everything is fresh". They keep their LME is plastic drums tipped on their side. There's a gas line running to each barrel, but I also see them removing that line to help the LME pour faster. Is this ruining the LME? I've gotten all my ingredients for every batch from the same store.

I read through your racking info multiple times - I'm good at just getting the beer, and leaving the trub.

I'll keep to 5gal till I get this figured out. Now I've got 10gal of crap to drink..

Is it necessary to switch to all grain? I've read so many things that using extract is perfectly acceptable, and I'd hate to invest more money into something I'm already screwing up haha!

I'd highly recommend just moving to all grain also, I've never been happy with my extract brews...they have always been a little to sweet and always kind of stale tasting.

This is a pretty good description of my beers I've made. I'm not 100% thrilled to jump into all grain, but I'm going to have to look into it.

I do have enough parts laying around to make one of those transfer pieces, so I will at least take that advice!

I ended up putting a rubber band around the seal to seal it better...

And yes, filtering through something on the racking cane could also contribute to oxidation.

Did you put the rubber band around the outside of the cap, or on the carboy itself to give a rubber to rubber seal?

Removing the filter now.

 

[Mark Hansen]

what does that inline filter look like?

Here's a pic

 

[Yooper]

Did you put the rubber band around the outside of the cap, or on the carboy itself to give a rubber to rubber seal?

Removing the filter now.

Around the outside of the cap- because the oxygen ingress was coming from there.

 

[Kharnynb]

yes, get rid of that filter, that's not a good thing to do to your beer...

edit, in case you really really need to have the filter, use it in a closed transfer between two kegs, don't attach it to the siphon.

 

[Mark Hansen]

yes, get rid of that filter, that's not a good thing to do to your beer...

edit, in case you really really need to have the filter, use it in a closed transfer between two kegs, don't attach it to the siphon.

I pulled the filter piece out, but left the plastic housing when I created my closed transfer unit. I'll use it as a sight glass.

 

[ncbrewer]

The racking cane is interesting - there are always bubble in my racking cane, but that's with me being on my second one. There were bubbles in the first one too. They are at the top where the plastic plunge piece heads into the tubing. There's about a 1.25" overlap of tubing on plunge piece.

My tube doesn't fit on the racking cane as tight as it should. I tighten it with a cable tie - works well.

Edit for typo

 

[Day-Day]

Is it necessary to switch to all grain? I've read so many things that using extract is perfectly acceptable, and I'd hate to invest more money into something I'm already screwing up haha!

Extract brewing is perfectly acceptable, and many people make some great beers with extract.

Whether switching to all grain is "necessary" depends on your goals. My goals were to learn as much as possible about the brewing process and to brew the best beer possible. I wanted beers that would be as good or better than commercial examples. All grain forced me to learn about the entire brewing process, which in turn, gave me more control at each step of the way, improving my final product.

It's much easier to identify and address your issues if you understand each step and how it affects your beer.

There is always used brewing equipment dirt cheap on craiglist or facebook marketplace... most people realize how much work brewing is and are ready to pretty much give their equipment away.

 

[eric19312]

I’d not use that LME. Do partial mash and get rest of gravity from DME or just go all grain. If you like using LME look for some packaged in smaller, sealed, containers by the maker and still try to use it when very fresh.

 

[S-Met]

necessary to switch to all grain? I've read so many things that using extract is perfectly acceptable, and I'd hate to invest more money into something I'm already screwing up haha!

Opening a can of worms with that question.

Short answer, you can make great beer with both dme and lme extract. I think of it as a similar argument that you have to make brownies from scratch for it to be any good. I've had many fantastic brownies from boxes, some minor tweaks may be required but they can be as good as homemade.

There are countless threads discussing tips and tricks to improve extract brews.

 

[jrgtr42]

-fermentation goes on
-rack into kegs (sanitized cane and kegs)
-purge kegs

Silly question: while fermentation is going on, do you leave it alone, or do you open the lid to "see how things are going" and take samples (for gravity and disposal down the gullet) repeatedly?
This could also cause oxidation. I've seen cases that people open up and sample every day, then wonder why it's oxidized.
As an aside, when are you checking gravities?

 

[Bubbles2]

1st off, back at the Boil. You stated you add DME at Flame Out..../Knock Out. Cool terms are misleading. It takes 37 min of an open Boil to reduce-

https://beerandbrewing.com/off-flavor-of-the-week-acetaldehyde/

-50%. Whereas the Yeast are pitched and do create their own as well. Which have a tart flavor.

Don't monkey with the Gismo son. Leave it alone. That should get pitched, preferably held at a constant temp for optimum for yeast strain; flux max +/- 5 º f .
Leave it for at least 7 pref 10 days. It should be flat and clear. Be it a Dark or Light Beer. NO HAZE, all should be settled before even thinking of thiefing, or pulling of your spigot (pending on rig) A good average is about 10-12 days and you should be at a solid 1010 /1008. IF you have a slow one, and it is at 1014. DO not throw back your test sample. Choice to Keg ( I do) and purge and leave for another week at room temp, before carbing and then to the fridge two days later. If it was at 1014-1012 on a sample that last week should do it and put it as far as it is going to go. When I Use Choc nibs that is a common occurrence.

 

[Saunassa]

The racking cane is interesting - there are always bubble in my racking cane, but that's with me being on my second one. There were bubbles in the first one too. They are at the top where the plastic plunge piece heads into the tubing. There's about a 1.25" overlap of tubing on plunge piece.
.

It sounds like your tubing slips 1.25" over the rigid plastic of the siphon/cane. Is your tubing that much bigger that you easily do this? I am lucky to get my tubing a half to three quarter inch on because it fits so tight. If it easily slips that far on and you are seeing bubbles I would add a clamp.

 

[Bubbles2]

Buy the right tubing, you do not need o2 drawing ontop of every oz you are transferring

 

[Mark Hansen]

My tube doesn't fit on the racking cane as tight as it should.

It sounds like your tubing slips 1.25" over the rigid plastic of the siphon/cane. Is your tubing that much bigger that you easily do this?

Buy the right tubing

It was a PITA to get it on that far, but it was a result of it popping off one time. I set out one day to get it on there good enough it'd never come off again. I'm not sure where the bubbles come from in the racking cane... maybe on the "up" motion of the prime?

Extract brewing is perfectly acceptable, and many people make some great beers with extract.

Whether switching to all grain is "necessary" depends on your goals. My goals were to learn as much as possible about the brewing process and to brew the best beer possible. I wanted beers that would be as good or better than commercial examples. All grain forced me to learn about the entire brewing process, which in turn, gave me more control at each step of the way, improving my final product.

I see this in the future, but for now I've got a 1yo & another on the way. So I'll switch to a more learned process when I'm not chasing diapers around the house haha

I’d not use that LME. Do partial mash and get rest of gravity from DME or just go all grain. If you like using LME look for some packaged in smaller, sealed, containers by the maker and still try to use it when very fresh.

I'll read up on partial mashing. I've always been confused by their LME (especially when the DME reduced the off flavor so much - that was my best batch by far). I've got another site recommended to me so I'll order from there for next time.

Silly question: while fermentation is going on, do you leave it alone, or do you open the lid to "see how things are going" and take samples (for gravity and disposal down the gullet) repeatedly?
This could also cause oxidation. I've seen cases that people open up and sample every day, then wonder why it's oxidized.

As an aside, when are you checking gravities?

I leave it alone. Everything is in a glass carboy because I DID want to see what was going on. I tasted a few times during my first batch, but I do leave it alone now.

Gravities... I'm real bad about grabbing those initial readings. I'll check after 2+ weeks of fermenting and make a call from there.

1st off, back at the Boil. You stated you add DME at Flame Out..../Knock Out. Cool terms are misleading. It takes 37 min of an open Boil to reduce-

Leave it for at least 7 pref 10 days. It should be flat and clear. Be it a Dark or Light Beer. NO HAZE, all should be settled before even thinking of thiefing, or pulling of your spigot (pending on rig) A good average is about 10-12 days and you should be at a solid 1010 /1008. IF you have a slow one, and it is at 1014. DO not throw back your test sample. Choice to Keg ( I do) and purge and leave for another week at room temp, before carbing and then to the fridge two days later.

Is another week in the keg at room temp a common thing? I get it into the keg, fridge, and my glass as soon as I can! Waiting for fermentation takes long enough haha

 

[Bassman2003]

Cold-side would look like this:
-usually split my batch between a 5 and a 6 gal carboy (when making a 10 gal batch)
-add water to make 5 gal each (tap, because using water from the store wasn't getting me anywhere in removing Sherry)
-carboy caps on each one
-hoses running to a sanitized solution
-fermentation goes on
-rack into kegs (sanitized cane and kegs)
-purge kegs
-set kegs to carb in kegerator

I don't splash my beer, but I do have one of those on-line filters on my racking cane to get out particles. Could that be it?

Adding the top-up water post fermentation would be a source of oxygen as well. Can you add the water to the fermenter so the yeast can eat up the oxygen? Or, boil and cool the water before adding it to the two carboys to remove the oxygen.

 

[Day-Day]

Is another week in the keg at room temp a common thing? I get it into the keg, fridge, and my glass as soon as I can! Waiting for fermentation takes long enough haha

My stouts and other dark/malt forward beers, I Keg them, then leave them at room temp (basement 60ish F. ) for months, sometimes a year or longer before I chill and carbonate them.

My IPA's I also keg, chill, and carbonate right away, then drink as fresh as possible.

 

[IslandLizard]

I pulled the filter piece out, but left the plastic housing when I created my closed transfer unit. I'll use it as a sight glass.

Don't use that filter or the housing for racking/siphoning! There is no need for filtering, just rack carefully. A little transferred trub won't harm your beer experience, it will precipitate out in the keg or bottles.

You can reuse the filter housing elsewhere, but not here.

When using a filter like that for beer it needs to be done in a very specific way (requiring pre-purging the whole system with Starsan and CO2) to prevent air from very effectively oxidizing every oz of beer coming through.

You don't need a sight glass. Your carboy, siphon, and tubing are already your sight glass.

I don't splash my beer, but I do have one of those on-line filters on my racking cane to get out particles. Could that be it?

Hah! Now I see it. You surely did mention using a filter there. ^

Although I read that phrase several times, even quoted it, for some reason I kept reading it as: "I don't have one of those a in-line filters." Not having a fathom of what you were referring to or even what to imagine with it, I must have mentally discarded it. Doh!

FWIW, that filter contraption is not on your "racking cane" it's inserted somewhere in your siphoning/racking tubing before it goes into the keg.

There's a significant difference between racking canes and auto siphons.
Auto siphons, although easy to use, expose your beer to air (oxygen) when priming/pumping and can suck more air in (bubbles), due to deformed/leaky seals. That too is a source of potential oxidation.
Hint: Always store the auto siphons taken apart, to keep the seals from deforming during storage.

At some point you may want to get and use a "regular" stainless racking cane you need to pre-prime yourself, instead of an auto siphon.

Anyway, I'm glad we (most likely) found the sources of your oxidation problem, and how to prevent it.

Your LME may be just fine after all, but age and oxidation level remain real-life variables.
I'd stick with DME, at least for your next batch. I don't think LME has anything over DME anyway, even pricewise.

 

[Mark Hansen]

Adding the top-up water post fermentation would be a source of oxygen as well. Can you add the water to the fermenter so the yeast can eat up the oxygen?

That's my process - maybe you misread ---- I add the water to get to 5gal and then it goes into fermentation.

Don't use that filter or the housing for racking/siphoning! There is no need for filtering, just rack carefully.

You can reuse the filter housing elsewhere, but not here.

You got it. I'll pull it off completely.

FWIW, that filter contraption is not on your "racking cane" it's inserted somewhere in your siphoning/racking tubing before it goes into the keg.

There's a significant difference between racking canes and auto siphons.
Auto siphons, although easy to use, expose your beer to air (oxygen) when priming/pumping and can suck more air in (bubbles), due to deformed/leaky seals. That too is a source of potential oxidation.

Your LME may be just fine after all, but age and oxidation level remain real-life variables.
I'd stick with DME, at least for your next batch. I don't think LME has anything over DME anyway, even pricewise.

That makes an unfortunate amount of sense... I'll be making a few changes prior to the next batch.

At LHBS, LME is significantly cheaper than DME. I'll see if I can overcome that online though. I do prefer DME.

 

[bracconiere]

instead of 5 gallons of oxygen.

not to nit pick, but.....lol, i had to!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Earth

"By volume, dry air contains 78.09% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.04% carbon dioxide, and small amounts of other gases"

 

[Bassman2003]

That's my process - maybe you misread ---- I add the water to get to 5gal and then it goes into fermentation.

Sorry about that. To move to a higher level, maybe this is a good time to incorporate closed transfers as Lizard suggested? (if possible) Sanitizer purging is the way to go.

 

[IslandLizard]

At LHBS, LME is significantly cheaper than DME. I'll see if I can overcome that online though. I do prefer DME.

My LHBS charges $4.65 a pound for DME, bought by the 3-pound bag ($13.95). I get a 10% homebrew club member discount on that. Plus there's tax. Yeah, kinda ridiculously pricey.
Now at our group grain buy DME runs around $2.60 a pound by the 50# bag. We split those bags among participants.

7 years ago, the last time I bought LME I paid around $4 a pound, dispensed from a plastic drum. I switched to all grain soon after that. Only using DME for yeast starters now.

Now DME gives 20% higher gravity than LME, since LME contains water. So for a pound of DME you need to buy 1.2 pounds of LME, or 20% more.

Or, for a pound of LME, you can substitute 0.84 pounds of DME, 16% less.

Factor that into the price you pay. Now I've heard more than a few LHBS swear by selling lots of LME poured from drums, and pricing can be more lucrative for the client.

 

[Mark Hansen]

Sorry about that. To move to a higher level, maybe this is a good time to incorporate closed transfers as Lizard suggested? (if possible) Sanitizer purging is the way to go.

No worries at all

I did whip up one of those closed transfer units. I just need to get a barb x thread fitting so I can put my gas inlet on there & I'll be ready to go.

How much CO2 am I going to go through using this process? I feel like I already buy a new 5lb-er every 3 kegs or so.

Now at our group grain buy DME runs around $2.60 a pound by the 50# bag. We split those bags among participants.

7 years ago, the last time I bought LME I paid around $4 a pound, dispensed from a plastic drum. I switched to all grain soon after that. Only using DME for yeast starters now.

-------

Now DME gives 20% higher gravity than LME, since LME contains water. So for a pound of DME you need to buy 1.2 pounds of LME, or 20% more.

Or, for a pound of LME, you can substitute 0.84 pounds of DME, 16% less.

Factor that into the price you pay. Now I've heard more than a few LHBS swear by selling lots of LME poured from drums, and pricing can be more lucrative for the client.

I'll have to watch for a group buy - extract brewing seems to be my immediate future.

I'll run the numbers based on my most recent brew, and see how much of a difference there would have been if I'd just gone with DME. I won't put blame on LHBS for trying to keep the doors open, but I definitely want to prioritize making high quality beer!

 

[IslandLizard]

I did whip up one of those closed transfer units. I just need to get a barb x thread fitting so I can put my gas inlet on there & I'll be ready to go.

How much CO2 am I going to go through using this process? I feel like I already buy a new 5lb-er every 3 kegs or so.

To 100% liquid prepurge a 5 gallon keg you'd use 5.5 gallons of CO2 to replace the liquid with gas at 14.7 psi. You may use a little extra, say 2 gallons to leave it somewhat pressurized, at say 4-6 psi. Leaving it any higher is a true waste of gas at this point.

I'll have to watch for a group buy - extract brewing seems to be my immediate future.

We have a whole forum dedicated to group buys. Look around to see if there's one organized here that in your area. Homebrew clubs also do group buys, so that's another resource. There are more.

You could also talk to your LHBS owner to see what he'd charge for a whole 50# sack of Briess Pilsen Light DME. You know what I pay, and please recognize that the LHBS through which we order our group buy products makes money on the deal.

I'll run the numbers based on my most recent brew, and see how much of a difference there would have been if I'd just gone with DME. I won't put blame on LHBS for trying to keep the doors open, but I definitely want to prioritize making high quality beer!

The LME you're getting may be good and fresh, but you mentioned that the staling/oxidized taste was less noticeable in the DME based batches. So maybe compare side by side. You could brew a gallon (or 2) of each (LME and DME based) on the stove, same recipe. And taste which is better. Do some blind tasting too. Check out Brulosophy.com, and their exbeeriments.

If you use municipal tap water, make sure to remove all chlorine/chloramines before using it for brewing.
A pinch of K-Meta (or 1/4 crushed Campden tablet) per 5 gallons will do the trick.

Some other details:

• Mineral composition of your brewing water is important. For most extract brewing RO or distilled water is recommended unless you want to venture into water chemistry a bit.
• Using highly alkaline water is discouraged for most brewing processes.
• Steep grains no higher than 155F.

 

[Bassman2003]

The sanitizer keg purge does take more CO2, but I think the flavor benefit is worth it. I have started naturally carbonating so the bottled CO2 needs for the keg purging are balanced out!

 

[IslandLizard]

The sanitizer keg purge does take more CO2, but I think the flavor benefit is worth it. I have started naturally carbonating so the bottled CO2 needs for the keg purging are balanced out!

You could use fermentation gas to purge/flush empty kegs thus saving the CO2 that would be needed to liquid pre-purge them.

With IPAs I probably use way more CO2 flushing fermenter headspaces than used for (liquid) pre-purging kegs.
Now I swap a 20# tank for $25, and it still lasts 1-2 years.

 

[Mark Hansen]

You could also talk to your LHBS owner to see what he'd charge for a whole 50# sack of Briess Pilsen Light DME. You know what I pay, and please recognize that the LHBS through which we order our group buy products makes money on the deal.

-----

If you use municipal tap water, make sure to remove all chlorine/chloramines before using it for brewing.
A pinch of K-Meta (or 1/4 crushed Campden tablet) per 5 gallons will do the trick.

-----

For most extract brewing RO or distilled water is recommended unless you want to venture into water chemistry a bit.

I'll see what they can do on a 50# bag. I'll spend some time shopping around / browsing group buys - thanks for the suggestions!

I brought the tap water up at LHBS, and they both agreed I live SO CLOSE to the water treatment facility (3...4... miles) that I don't need to worry about chloramines. Any issues with that statement? (I know chlorine & chloramines are different, just don't make me explain it)

I went to tap water to save a few bucks, but sounds like I need to get back to filtered water for these brews.

The sanitizer keg purge does take more CO2, but I think the flavor benefit is worth it. I have started naturally carbonating so the bottled CO2 needs for the keg purging are balanced out!

Are you naturally carbonating in your kegs?

You could use fermentation gas to purge/flush empty kegs thus saving the CO2 that would be needed to liquid pre-purge them.

With IPAs I probably use way more CO2 flushing fermenter headspaces than used for (liquid) pre-purging kegs.
Now I swap a 20# tank for $25, and it still lasts 1-2 years.

Do you have a link for how this setup would look? This sounds pretty interesting!

Also, where the heck are you getting a 20# for $5 more than my 5#!? I've been doing it wrong all along..

 

[Bassman2003]

Yes, I spund by either transferring to the keg with about 5 gravity points left and let it finish there or letting the beer finish in the fermenter and adding some sugar (maybe yeast), wait a few hours for activity and transfer the (newly) active beer.

Either way you are getting the oxygen scavenging benefit from active yeast as well as capturing natural CO2 (which has o% oxygen).

This combined with a sanitizer purged keg is about as good as a homebrewer can get for a buttoned up cold side practice.

 

[IslandLizard]

I brought the tap water up at LHBS, and they both agreed I live SO CLOSE to the water treatment facility (3...4... miles) that I don't need to worry about chloramines. Any issues with that statement?

Yeah, a big issue!
Why would distance from the water treatment plant be significant? If anything, the closer you are, the less the chloramines had a chance to break down.

I need to get back to filtered water for these brews.

Do you have an RO filter?
Carbon block filtering won't remove mineral content. Or much of anything else (chlorine/chloramines) unless you trickle it through slowly < 1/2 gallon/min, depending on content.

In that light, you definitely need to "sulfite" your brewing water before use to remove chlorine or chloramines. It only takes a good stir and a minute to react. That still leaves the minerals.

Best to give your water company a call (ask for someone in "quality control") and get the skinny on the minerals (ions actually) we brewers are most interested in. Also ask about changes in them over time or with seasons.
Read the sticky in the Brew Science forum first.
And remember, a Ward Lab water test is only a snapshot, pretty useless if the mineral content changes significantly and constantly.

Do you have a link for how this setup would look? This sounds pretty interesting!

Look around on the LoDO subform or do a search.

Also, where the heck are you getting a 20# for $5 more than my 5#!? I've been doing it wrong all along..

Yeah, we have dozens of threads on that issue too.

20# tanks are usually much more economically than 5# ones. As long as you don't have a leak.

The CO2 itself is cheap, costs only a few dimes a pound, if that. It's the process of handling, purging and filling that takes time and thus extra $$.
I swap mine at Praxair now. No fuss, no muss. As long as I get a decent looking aluminum tank back for a like one I traded.

Local fire protection companies will fill them, but aren't cheaper, at least around here. Plus tanks needs to be tested every 5 years. Swaps are easier too, in and out in 5-10 minutes. No waiting for filling or worse, having to come back to pick it up.

My advice is to call around and check pricing and terms. It can vary widely.

 

[THESULLI]

So, unless you know the LME is fresh, and has been stored cold in appropriate packaging, definitely switch to using DME only. Use (fresh) steeping grains for flavor and style. Not prepackaged premilled stuff that may have been on the shelf for years.

Use hops that were correctly packaged and stored. Vacuum sealed in mylar oxygen barrier (or multilayer) bags, and stored frozen.

I switched over to DME only. I don't think my LHBS sees too many extract brewers. Their LME is usually at or past the expiration date. I have never noticed a sherry flavor but I have noticed a dull or bland flavor when using older LME. Still very drinkable but not ideal. I just used some hops that I have had in the fridge for a while too. Same thing. They smelled... subdued? I guess that would be the right word. This beer is still in the fermenter so only time will tell how it turned out.

Although I am still extremely new to brewing, I have already noticed BIG differences when using fresh ingredients vs not so fresh ingredients.