I thought I "did it right"

[Bassman2003]

That's my process - maybe you misread ---- I add the water to get to 5gal and then it goes into fermentation.

Sorry about that. To move to a higher level, maybe this is a good time to incorporate closed transfers as Lizard suggested? (if possible) Sanitizer purging is the way to go.

 

[IslandLizard]

At LHBS, LME is significantly cheaper than DME. I'll see if I can overcome that online though. I do prefer DME.

My LHBS charges $4.65 a pound for DME, bought by the 3-pound bag ($13.95). I get a 10% homebrew club member discount on that. Plus there's tax. Yeah, kinda ridiculously pricey.
Now at our group grain buy DME runs around $2.60 a pound by the 50# bag. We split those bags among participants.

7 years ago, the last time I bought LME I paid around $4 a pound, dispensed from a plastic drum. I switched to all grain soon after that. Only using DME for yeast starters now.

Now DME gives 20% higher gravity than LME, since LME contains water. So for a pound of DME you need to buy 1.2 pounds of LME, or 20% more.

Or, for a pound of LME, you can substitute 0.84 pounds of DME, 16% less.

Factor that into the price you pay. Now I've heard more than a few LHBS swear by selling lots of LME poured from drums, and pricing can be more lucrative for the client.

 

[Mark Hansen]

Sorry about that. To move to a higher level, maybe this is a good time to incorporate closed transfers as Lizard suggested? (if possible) Sanitizer purging is the way to go.

No worries at all

I did whip up one of those closed transfer units. I just need to get a barb x thread fitting so I can put my gas inlet on there & I'll be ready to go.

How much CO2 am I going to go through using this process? I feel like I already buy a new 5lb-er every 3 kegs or so.

Now at our group grain buy DME runs around $2.60 a pound by the 50# bag. We split those bags among participants.

7 years ago, the last time I bought LME I paid around $4 a pound, dispensed from a plastic drum. I switched to all grain soon after that. Only using DME for yeast starters now.

-------

Now DME gives 20% higher gravity than LME, since LME contains water. So for a pound of DME you need to buy 1.2 pounds of LME, or 20% more.

Or, for a pound of LME, you can substitute 0.84 pounds of DME, 16% less.

Factor that into the price you pay. Now I've heard more than a few LHBS swear by selling lots of LME poured from drums, and pricing can be more lucrative for the client.

I'll have to watch for a group buy - extract brewing seems to be my immediate future.

I'll run the numbers based on my most recent brew, and see how much of a difference there would have been if I'd just gone with DME. I won't put blame on LHBS for trying to keep the doors open, but I definitely want to prioritize making high quality beer!

 

[IslandLizard]

I did whip up one of those closed transfer units. I just need to get a barb x thread fitting so I can put my gas inlet on there & I'll be ready to go.

How much CO2 am I going to go through using this process? I feel like I already buy a new 5lb-er every 3 kegs or so.

To 100% liquid prepurge a 5 gallon keg you'd use 5.5 gallons of CO2 to replace the liquid with gas at 14.7 psi. You may use a little extra, say 2 gallons to leave it somewhat pressurized, at say 4-6 psi. Leaving it any higher is a true waste of gas at this point.

I'll have to watch for a group buy - extract brewing seems to be my immediate future.

We have a whole forum dedicated to group buys. Look around to see if there's one organized here that in your area. Homebrew clubs also do group buys, so that's another resource. There are more.

You could also talk to your LHBS owner to see what he'd charge for a whole 50# sack of Briess Pilsen Light DME. You know what I pay, and please recognize that the LHBS through which we order our group buy products makes money on the deal.

I'll run the numbers based on my most recent brew, and see how much of a difference there would have been if I'd just gone with DME. I won't put blame on LHBS for trying to keep the doors open, but I definitely want to prioritize making high quality beer!

The LME you're getting may be good and fresh, but you mentioned that the staling/oxidized taste was less noticeable in the DME based batches. So maybe compare side by side. You could brew a gallon (or 2) of each (LME and DME based) on the stove, same recipe. And taste which is better. Do some blind tasting too. Check out Brulosophy.com, and their exbeeriments.

If you use municipal tap water, make sure to remove all chlorine/chloramines before using it for brewing.
A pinch of K-Meta (or 1/4 crushed Campden tablet) per 5 gallons will do the trick.

Some other details:

• Mineral composition of your brewing water is important. For most extract brewing RO or distilled water is recommended unless you want to venture into water chemistry a bit.
• Using highly alkaline water is discouraged for most brewing processes.
• Steep grains no higher than 155F.

 

[Bassman2003]

The sanitizer keg purge does take more CO2, but I think the flavor benefit is worth it. I have started naturally carbonating so the bottled CO2 needs for the keg purging are balanced out!

 

[IslandLizard]

The sanitizer keg purge does take more CO2, but I think the flavor benefit is worth it. I have started naturally carbonating so the bottled CO2 needs for the keg purging are balanced out!

You could use fermentation gas to purge/flush empty kegs thus saving the CO2 that would be needed to liquid pre-purge them.

With IPAs I probably use way more CO2 flushing fermenter headspaces than used for (liquid) pre-purging kegs.
Now I swap a 20# tank for $25, and it still lasts 1-2 years.

 

[Mark Hansen]

You could also talk to your LHBS owner to see what he'd charge for a whole 50# sack of Briess Pilsen Light DME. You know what I pay, and please recognize that the LHBS through which we order our group buy products makes money on the deal.

-----

If you use municipal tap water, make sure to remove all chlorine/chloramines before using it for brewing.
A pinch of K-Meta (or 1/4 crushed Campden tablet) per 5 gallons will do the trick.

-----

For most extract brewing RO or distilled water is recommended unless you want to venture into water chemistry a bit.

I'll see what they can do on a 50# bag. I'll spend some time shopping around / browsing group buys - thanks for the suggestions!

I brought the tap water up at LHBS, and they both agreed I live SO CLOSE to the water treatment facility (3...4... miles) that I don't need to worry about chloramines. Any issues with that statement? (I know chlorine & chloramines are different, just don't make me explain it)

I went to tap water to save a few bucks, but sounds like I need to get back to filtered water for these brews.

The sanitizer keg purge does take more CO2, but I think the flavor benefit is worth it. I have started naturally carbonating so the bottled CO2 needs for the keg purging are balanced out!

Are you naturally carbonating in your kegs?

You could use fermentation gas to purge/flush empty kegs thus saving the CO2 that would be needed to liquid pre-purge them.

With IPAs I probably use way more CO2 flushing fermenter headspaces than used for (liquid) pre-purging kegs.
Now I swap a 20# tank for $25, and it still lasts 1-2 years.

Do you have a link for how this setup would look? This sounds pretty interesting!

Also, where the heck are you getting a 20# for $5 more than my 5#!? I've been doing it wrong all along..

 

[Bassman2003]

Yes, I spund by either transferring to the keg with about 5 gravity points left and let it finish there or letting the beer finish in the fermenter and adding some sugar (maybe yeast), wait a few hours for activity and transfer the (newly) active beer.

Either way you are getting the oxygen scavenging benefit from active yeast as well as capturing natural CO2 (which has o% oxygen).

This combined with a sanitizer purged keg is about as good as a homebrewer can get for a buttoned up cold side practice.

 

[IslandLizard]

I brought the tap water up at LHBS, and they both agreed I live SO CLOSE to the water treatment facility (3...4... miles) that I don't need to worry about chloramines. Any issues with that statement?

Yeah, a big issue!
Why would distance from the water treatment plant be significant? If anything, the closer you are, the less the chloramines had a chance to break down.

I need to get back to filtered water for these brews.

Do you have an RO filter?
Carbon block filtering won't remove mineral content. Or much of anything else (chlorine/chloramines) unless you trickle it through slowly < 1/2 gallon/min, depending on content.

In that light, you definitely need to "sulfite" your brewing water before use to remove chlorine or chloramines. It only takes a good stir and a minute to react. That still leaves the minerals.

Best to give your water company a call (ask for someone in "quality control") and get the skinny on the minerals (ions actually) we brewers are most interested in. Also ask about changes in them over time or with seasons.
Read the sticky in the Brew Science forum first.
And remember, a Ward Lab water test is only a snapshot, pretty useless if the mineral content changes significantly and constantly.

Do you have a link for how this setup would look? This sounds pretty interesting!

Look around on the LoDO subform or do a search.

Also, where the heck are you getting a 20# for $5 more than my 5#!? I've been doing it wrong all along..

Yeah, we have dozens of threads on that issue too.

20# tanks are usually much more economically than 5# ones. As long as you don't have a leak.

The CO2 itself is cheap, costs only a few dimes a pound, if that. It's the process of handling, purging and filling that takes time and thus extra $$.
I swap mine at Praxair now. No fuss, no muss. As long as I get a decent looking aluminum tank back for a like one I traded.

Local fire protection companies will fill them, but aren't cheaper, at least around here. Plus tanks needs to be tested every 5 years. Swaps are easier too, in and out in 5-10 minutes. No waiting for filling or worse, having to come back to pick it up.

My advice is to call around and check pricing and terms. It can vary widely.

 

[THESULLI]

So, unless you know the LME is fresh, and has been stored cold in appropriate packaging, definitely switch to using DME only. Use (fresh) steeping grains for flavor and style. Not prepackaged premilled stuff that may have been on the shelf for years.

Use hops that were correctly packaged and stored. Vacuum sealed in mylar oxygen barrier (or multilayer) bags, and stored frozen.

I switched over to DME only. I don't think my LHBS sees too many extract brewers. Their LME is usually at or past the expiration date. I have never noticed a sherry flavor but I have noticed a dull or bland flavor when using older LME. Still very drinkable but not ideal. I just used some hops that I have had in the fridge for a while too. Same thing. They smelled... subdued? I guess that would be the right word. This beer is still in the fermenter so only time will tell how it turned out.

Although I am still extremely new to brewing, I have already noticed BIG differences when using fresh ingredients vs not so fresh ingredients.

 

[Day-Day]

And remember, a Ward Lab water test is only a snapshot, pretty useless if the mineral content changes significantly and constantly.

^ This right here is why I use RO water. I buy Primo water from Walmart...which is suppossed to be RO water. Refills are $.39/gallon. I have two 5 gallon bottles that I carry in the store the night before I brew and purchase 10 gallons for $4...then build my water from that.

I believe it's advantageous to use RO or Distilled water for extract brewing, since all the water profiling/mineral additions, etc. were adding during the mash when they made the extract. I know some people still adjust water "chemistry" when extract brewing but I believe this are just kettle additions to adjust sulfate:chloride ratios, etc, and I believe most who are doing that are using RO or Distilled.

Adding tap water to extract could throw off the mineral content/water profile is all I'm saying.

 

[Mark Hansen]

Yes, I spund by either transferring to the keg with about 5 gravity points left and let it finish there or letting the beer finish in the fermenter and adding some sugar (maybe yeast), wait a few hours for activity and transfer the (newly) active beer.

How long are you letting carbonate prior to putting in the kegerator?

Do you have an RO filter?

No, so I'll be switching to @Day-Day's suggestion below - got a Wally right around the corner

Refills are $.39/gallon. I have two 5 gallon bottles that I carry in the store the night before I brew and purchase 10 gallons for $4...then build my water from that.

I'm definitely switching to this method moving forward. Think I could just fill my carboys? Or do they require plastic? (if you know)

 

[IslandLizard]

Think I could just fill my carboys?

You don't want to be transporting filled glass carboys...
Or even handling them too much.

You could fill any clean food-safe container. Any used gallon water jugs lying around?

 

[Bassman2003]

Timing to go to the kegerator or lager fridge is up for debate and situational.

For adding sugar after fermentation is completed, you might only need a few days for all of the sugar to be eaten up and carbonation levels reached. Since the beer is finished, you only need the new sugar to be consumer and you are ready to go to lager or serving.

For transfers before the original yeast is complete, many will move it after a few days. I will often let it sit at the fermentation temps for 4-7 days as i want the beer to have room to finish and the yeast to clean up. But, this is an area where research is showing is more homebrew dogma rather than necessary. The pressure builds rather quickly.

 

[Day-Day]

I'm definitely switching to this method moving forward. Think I could just fill my carboys? Or do they require plastic? (if you know)

The first time you go you can purchase the jugs... I think they are like $10 each but they are prefilled with 5 gallons of RO water.

You spend $20 (I think, don't quote me) for 10 gallons of water and two containers up front. Moving forward you just bring those containers back and refill. It's a solid investment, it pays for itself in one or two brews.

I might eventually get an RO system in my next house, but for now this works just fine, and my beer is excellent and consistent.

 

[IslandLizard]

The first time you go you can purchase the jugs... I think they are like $10 each but they are prefilled with 5 gallons of RO water.

You spend $20 (I think, don't quote me) for 10 gallons of water and two containers up front. Moving forward you just bring those containers back and refill. It's a solid investment, it pays for itself in one or two brews.

There seems a potential monkey wrench was thrown into this idea:
No more RO water, what to use now?

Not sure if this applies to Wally's World and such. Dang!

 

[Day-Day]

Wow, I never even thought of that, I'll have to go check tonight and see if they shut the machine down. I brewed last weekend and it was still running. I don't mind paying a dollar a gallon for bottled (gallon jugs) of distilled if I have too.