I don't understanding how to match a recipe's EFF % when my equipment is different

[wookiemofo]

I don't even know why I'm asking this. Been brewing for a couple years now and just started reassessing my process. Probably because I came in at 60% this weekend. Any way, here's my question.

If I am following someone recipe, who say hits 75% efficiency. How can I match that if my equipment will have different leave behinds (loss to trub, dead space and such) which ultimately results in a lower brewhouse eff? So their 75% might be my 70%?

Am I thinking of this correctly? Or am I mixing up my terms. I read earlier today that all the loss of wort will attribute to a lower eff, which is fine. But for instance, the recipe I brewed over the weekend came in at 1.06, I was supposed to hit 1.07. I know there are other factors at play, but it got me thinking. If I shoot for 75 per the recipe, won't my final measure eff differ since my setup differs?

 

[dbreienrk1]

Mathematics

 

[Mknox4354]

Yes everybody efficiency is going to be different but I just adjust my grain bill to make sure i hit the proper OG if im following a recipe that shows a higher efficiency. There quite a few programs out there that can help you with this

 

[wookiemofo]

Yeah I use beersmith, I've just never really sat down and studied it. Might be about time that I do that.

 

[bruin_ale]

the hardest part is figuring out what YOUR efficiency is. Once you have that number, just scale the recipe with beersmith so that the efficiency matches what your brewing setup gets.

 

[Mknox4354]

Yeah I use beersmith, I've just never really sat down and studied it. Might be about time that I do that.

Yeai dont use beersmith but im sure therevis some kind of adjustmentvyou can make to show you how much additional grains you will need to hit your target og. Alot of times i will just add more of my base malts. Im sure some other people with more knowledge will chime in soon. I used to be around 60% so i was adjusting my grain bill quite a bit. Im at about 70-75% now so its been a little better

 

[Mknox4354]

the hardest part is figuring out what YOUR efficiency is. Once you have that number, just scale the recipe with beersmith so that the efficiency matches what your brewing setup gets.

Well there we go that simple

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Without using software, so long as you know your efficiency, you can do a ROUGH adjustment by adding or subtracting grain in proportion to the efficiency difference. For example:

A recipe calls for 10 lbs of 2 row, and the creator assumed 75% efficiency. If you only get 65% efficiency, add 10% more grain (i.e., use 11 lbs in your mash).

It's not perfect, but it'll get you in the ball park without using software or somewhat more complex calculations (which aren't too difficult, but can be daunting if you've never done it).

 

[wookiemofo]

So the gist of it is... my current setup allows an awful lot of leave behind so that I don't have to mess with trub. My whirlpooling efforts really don't do much, but my carboys are often crystal clear when I pitch my yeast. I'm thinking that with all the leave behind I have accounted for, I've never increased my grain to accommodate that. That must be part of my problem.

 

[Yooper]

Yeah I use beersmith, I've just never really sat down and studied it. Might be about time that I do that.

Yes, that's the best way to make your recipes consistent. Yuri's advice is correct, and since I use Beersmith, I can use that software to do the math for me since it sure is easier! You can also make sure your IBUs match your recipe, when the AAUs are different or your efficiency is different.

I always get 72%, so I always tweak recipes I find. BYO magazines are set for 65% efficiency I think, and some on this forum are for 75% or even higher. Knowing my own efficiency makes this simple in Beersmith.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

So the gist of it is... my current setup allows an awful lot of leave behind so that I don't have to mess with trub. My whirlpooling efforts really don't do much, but my carboys are often crystal clear when I pitch my yeast. I'm thinking that with all the leave behind I have accounted for, I've never increased my grain to accommodate that. That must be part of my problem.

No, not even close. Precipitated solids do as much good left in the kettle as they do if they make it into the fermenter with regard to efficiency. Trub has very, very little to do with mash efficiency. Efficiency is basically the ratio of how much sugar gets dissolved into the wort to how much sugar was available in the grain bill. The key there is DISSOLVED. In terms of efficiency, it doesn't matter if you leave the protein and hop sludge in the boil kettle or let it settle to the bottom of the fermenter...none of that trub contains the sugar that determines efficiency. Sorry if that was a bit redundant, I just wanted to be clear.

Efficiency is affected by the following less than all-inclusive list:
Diastatic power (i.e., base malt to specialty malt ratio)
Grain crush
Mash thickness
Mash pH
Mash temperature
Sparge rate
Sparge temperature
Mash tun dead space (LIQUID left behind in the mash tun)
Boil off rate (to calculate apparent efficiency)

EDIT:
If by "leave behind," you mean that you increase the volume of your boil in order to achieve the desired volume into the fermenter, then yes, you need to increase the grain bill proportionally.

 

[wookiemofo]

See that's where I'm getting confused. My understanding is that the efficiency you mention is mash efficiency. But brewhouse efficiency is what I've been measuring (I think), which I think is lower because of how much wort I am leaving behind in the kettle. A couple things I noticed with Saturday's session was how far off target my Fermentor Volume was. I was shooting for a 6 gallon batch with 5.5 into the fermentor (.5 gallon left behind for trub). However, this recipe had 4 oz of hops in a hop stand, and as a result I only collected 4.5 gallons in the carboy. I ended up just dumping in the wort/trub mixture to increase my amount... but I feel like all these numbers gave me a low brewhouse eff. I have no idea what my mash eff, I've never bothered to take numbers.

And as mentioned, I don't even know why I'm inquiring about it. I've been happy with my beer. But after a full day of brewing I can't help but feel disappointed when I see I only hit 60%!

 

[wookiemofo]

I guess what I'm also wondering is, could I be hitting 75%+ mash efficiency (which is acceptable) but getting a brewhouse eff of 60% (due to all my leave behind).

And if so, should I do anything to fix it?

 

[wookiemofo]

Or do I have my info incorrect in assuming that leaving wort behind in the kettle affects my overall gravity?

 

[Yooper]

Or do I have my info incorrect in assuming that leaving wort behind in the kettle affects my overall gravity?

It doesn't affect your gravity, as the wort in the kettle is the same OG as the wort in the fermenter.

However if you're topping up with water to "make up" the volume, then your OG would be lower of course.

The easy fix here would be to better calculate your preboil volume to be able to leave behind whatever you want to in the kettle (or need to, due to dead space) and end up with the desired 5.25 gallon to the fermenter.

 

[wookiemofo]

And that's where beersmith comes into play correct?

Here's my example/setup:
10 Gallon mash tun
10 Gallon Boil Kettle
.5 Gallon Lauter Tun deadspace
90 minutes boil time on average
.6 gallon boil off rate (Yooper what's your rate? Being in MN we have similar atmospheric whatever)
.9 gallon total boil off
.31 gallon cooling loss
1.5 gallon loss to trub
.5 gallon fermenter loss

All of this equates to a 8.7 gallon boil volume and 7.8 post boil volume.

Somehow my into fermenter volume was quite low this weekend which I assume resulted in a low BH EFF.

But that's where I get confused. Am I correct in that beersmith will take the given grain amounts from a specific recipe and calculate my expected OG based off all those numbers correct? Which technically should give me a different OG then the creator of the recipe since our systems are different?

 

[Yooper]

Somehow my into fermenter volume was quite low this weekend which I assume resulted in a low BH EFF.

But that's where I get confused. Am I correct in that beersmith will take the given grain amounts from a specific recipe and calculate my expected OG based off all those numbers correct? Which technically should give me a different OG then the creator of the recipe since our systems are different?

I boil off quite a bit in the winter, when it's dry. (I brew indoors). In the summer, I start with 6.5 gallons to end up with 5.25 gallons, but in the winter I start with 7 gallons. I lose almost nothing to trub, as most of my finished wort makes it into the boil kettle after whirlpooling. Maybe .5 gallon at the most in a very hoppy beer made with lots of pellet hops (I use a bag for leaf hops due to my pump being prone to clogging).

Beersmith will adjust your OG, but not based as much on your equipment where you figure volumes. But you put in YOUR efficiency number into the program, and that will figure your OG. Your boil volume will come from the settings you listed.

 

[tknice]

I agree with everyone that BeerSmith makes playing around with things just like this very easy (once you get the hang of it).

If you don't want to bother with the software and you are not cloning a beer, then just adding or removing some base grain would get you closer.

If you're efficiency was lower then you can always add DME as well.

I'm sure it will still taste great.