I’m tired of making grassy gross IPA’s.

[Gravelscratcher]

Thanks for all your input.
Even if this brew comes around, I received some good pointers...appreciate all of you. Cheers

 

[Blazinlow86]

id say if your not paying much attention to those temps and timings ( as i was not) you should start there as it can make a HUGE differance. i agree with papz that the 170ish range is were your out of the danger zone for picking up major ibus. most recipes that have flameout hops are assuming your chilling right away. if your process doesnt allow that then you can tailor your timings to account. you should boil up 5 gallons of water (or whatever your end of boil volume is) then accuratly time how long it takes to consistantly chill that to 170f. if it takes 15 minutes you may want to delay all your boil additions 15 mins to compensate. if your recipe calls for flameout hops you would really add them 15 mins after flameout again to compensate. also add any whirlpool hops once you reach the 170f mark so you dont pickup the ibus from them. hopefully this makes some sense and of course these are somewhat general numbers as examples. i whirlpool chill thru a 1/2" cfc chiller back into my kettle now which allows me to get 18 gallons down to 170f in about 2 minutes from flameout and because my system electric with pid control i can control these temps very accurately. its made a EPIC differance . i almost gave up honestly. cheers

 

[Gravelscratcher]

On a serious note (no more man bun and neckbeard jokes, at least on this thread)... here's my list in order of probability (most to least) based on some of your descriptions

1. water chemistry
2. crap hop source
2A. unintended isomerization
3. post-pitch oxygenation (O2 is bad on any beer)
4. post-dry hop oxygenation (O2 is really bad on hop oils)
5. light struck (it's a stretch, but I have to throw it out there. had a friend once put his clear carboy where the sun hit it daily, God was that beer nasty)
6. type of hop versus grains and/or yeast selection

I've judged a ton of IPA's, some in 300+ entry competitions. One in maybe ten did NOT have multiple faults. Many almost cause an involuntary personal protein spill. The only categories with more faults than IPA's are the very light and clean styles where the brewer can't hide anything, and every fault shines right through.

We’re good SoCal...I knew you were kidding around.

 

[urg8rb8]

Alright, this is problem I’ve been experiencing with most of my IPA’s...for a long time.

I get a grassy/veggie bitter flavor, with none of the grapefruit, pine, tropical...(the good stuff) from my hops (irrespective of the recipe)...and it doesn’t get better w/ time. All the typical off flavor descriptions (from brewing mistakes) don’t seem to fit what I’m experiencing.

I can brew a stout, and it’s perfect. I can brew a NEiPA with Cryo Hops, and it’s great. I can brew cream ales and steam beers...you get the point.
The minute I try and make an IPA or a Hoppy Pale, with standard pellet hops, I get this grassy vegetable bitter thing.
For the life of me, I can’t figure it out.

I am using a chest freezer and an ink-bird to control my temperature. I’m careful w/ hot side and cold side oxygen. I quit using tap water, and went to buying purified drinking water. I’m ultra clean and sanitized. My mash temp’s are in the 150’s. I bought a new fermenter...and so on.
What sucks is, I love IPA’s and NEIPA’s. I want to make IPA’s, and enjoy some of my favorite beers and experiment with interesting recipe ideas, but all I get is grassy, gross, bitter. They literally all taste the same...doesn’t matter what I do.

I can’t figure it out, and I’m about to only brew w/ Cryo-Hops, because that’s the only real success I’ve had w/ brewing IPAs (the NEIPA I made). It was amazing by the way.

The only thing I haven’t tried, is getting scientific w/ my water and PH levels. But I don’t think that’s the issue here.

Anyway, this is pretty much my last resort. It’s worth my pride to just admit it, if someone can help me figure it out.

You mentioned purified drinking water but you didn't mention brewing salts. Did you add any?

 

[Blazinlow86]

bs3 shows 1 oz of centennial extracts 8 ibu from a 170f steep for 30 minutes and a 19 ibu from a 190f steep for 30 minutes. that 20f doubles the ibu of just that addition

 

[Gravelscratcher]

You mentioned purified drinking water but you didn't mention brewing salts. Did you add any?

No salts...just purified drinking water.
yea, i’ve Been considering measuring PH and dialing it in.
Considering doing the distilled water, and dialing it in from there.
Don’t feel like sending in water samples and correcting it etc.

Edit:
Water chemistry is the next hurdle I need to tackle. I’ll be frank, it just seems like a pain (I live a busy life...career, wife, kids, blah blah blah).

Edit #2:
I did play w/ 5.2 stabilizer back in the day...that was a mistake. I did not like the way 5.2 stabilizer affected taste.

 

[urg8rb8]

No salts...just purified drinking water.
yea, i’ve Been considering measuring PH and dialing it in.
Considering doing the distilled water, and dialing it in from there.
Don’t feel like sending in water samples and correcting it etc.

I use RO water, Brunwater, and just bought a .01g precision scale. I use gypsum, calcium chloride, lactic acid, and baking soda for my water additions.

I'm pretty sure this is your problem.

 

[303Dan]

No salts...just purified drinking water.
yea, i’ve Been considering measuring PH and dialing it in.
Considering doing the distilled water, and dialing it in from there.
Don’t feel like sending in water samples and correcting it etc.

Edit:
Water chemistry is the next hurdle I need to tackle. I’ll be frank, it just seems like a pain (I live a busy life...career, wife, kids, blah blah blah).

Edit #2:
I did play w/ 5.2 stabilizer back in the day...that was a mistake. I did not like the way 5.2 stabilizer affected taste.

Honestly, I think you'll find that doing some basic water chemistry is not a big deal at all and it can make a huge difference. Grab a good cheap or free utility like Bru'n Water, spend $5 at your LHBS on some Gypsum and Calcium Chloride, and you're most of the way there. If you don't want to invest in a pH meter, you can start with Distilled or RO water and just trust Bru'n Water's calculations. In my experience, with very few exceptions, my mash pH measurements are within .1 of the estimates from Bru'n Water.

Good luck!

 

[JLeuck64]

I went through the exact same grassy vegetable flavors in my IPA's shortly after switching over to kegging...

Funny change in flavor that I never ever picked up after years of bottling this IPA recipe. The only thing that changed in my process was switching over to kegging from bottling. So dry hopping the IPA was the same as when I was bottling, but after switching to kegging I started picking up this grassy flavor that only got worse as the beer aged.

I've moved all of my late additions and the dry hop additions to a hop stand now. So after I cool the wort down to say 170F I throw in the 5 min hop additions and the dry hop additions and let is steep for about 20 minutes. Then I chill until 70F and transfer to ferment bucket.

About the same time I started to do this I ran across this article from Spikebrewing Ask a Pro column. Dry Hop Temperatures is a really good article by Blaze Ruud from YCH Hops. He described exactly several of my experiences and shed some light on why it was happening.

Now my IPA's taste and smell like I would expect them too ( ;

 

[Gravelscratcher]

Good stuff there.
You and Blazin have got me thinking about those flameout hop temps.
And it's an easy thing to change/pay attention to
Appreciate that.

Edit:
I think it's time to move forward with some improvements to my routine.
Water adjustments and late hop temperatures are 2 areas I've been lacking.

 

[beerlover77]

Had only one American Pale ale I made taste grassy and it was from Old Cascade hops

Centennial is a great hop but try mixing it with: Citra, Mosaic, Galaxy, El Dorodo, or other fruity/citrussy hops. I suggest moving most the hops to late in the boil/flameout and add more dry hops

Here is an example of my fav recipe (tastes like juice):
1oz @40min columbus
1oz@10min citra/mosaic
2.5oz@5min citra/mosaic
2.5oz@0min citra/mosaic
3oz dry hop citra/mosaic

You may need to adjust that if whirlpooling (I chill fast)
You could also try a Kveik yeast as they impart tropical flavors

IPA's go grassy when they are old and the hop flavors fade

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I’m still learning about whirlpool additions. I didn’t realize temperature was that important for flameout hops.

id say if your not paying much attention to those temps and timings ( as i was not) you should start there as it can make a HUGE differance.

Basic Brewing Radio - November 1, 2018 - IBUs vs Wort Gravity and Hop Stand Temps.
The PDF associated with the BBR episode has some experimental science around estimating IBUs.

With their "0 minute boil" approach for trying 'new' hops, I get two totally different beers when I

1. use flame-out hops: add the hops at flame-out and let sit for 15 minutes
2. use a hop steep: cool the wort (after the boil) to 180* F and hop steep at 180* F for 15 minutes.

(trying hop steeps at lower temperatures is on my experimental brewing list)

 

[seatazzz]

I scrolled through too fast to see most of the responses, but I think your aroma/flavor hop schedule might be part of the culprit. Hops at 30 minutes will impart more bitterness than flavor/aroma. Try adding your aroma/flavor hops in the last 15 minutes at 5 minute intervals, and take your bittering hops OUT once you start the flavor/aroma additions. And +1 to the hopstand at 175 or thereabouts; supposed to get more out of them at that temperature.

Another question; when you boil, is it vigorous or just meh? If just meh, your bittering hops may be taking longer to get the most out of them. Same with the flavor/aroma hops. The rest of your process looks solid.

As to water additions, I've read that 1-2 tsp of gypsum in the mash will help the hops come out more. Haven't tried it myself yet (because every time i go to the LHBS they're out of gypsum).

 

[Gravelscratcher]

You know, I've been thinking about it, and I'm really believe its my flameout hops.
I've been dropping them in, and whirlpooling at flame out...temps are probably well above 180.
Im embarrassed to say that, but I just didn't know.
Glad I started this thread...I've got some things to work with on my next IPA.
Brewing a Noble kolsch right now.
There's no flameout hops on this one, so it'll be a good test.
I'll start working on my water and change my flameout hop additions next go round.
Thanks ya'll, this was a big help.

 

[urg8rb8]

You know, I've been thinking about it, and I'm really believe its my flameout hops.
I've been dropping them in, and whirlpooling at flame out...temps are probably well above 180.
Im embarrassed to say that, but I just didn't know.
Glad I started this thread...I've got some things to work with on my next IPA.
Brewing a Noble kolsch right now.
There's no flameout hops on this one, so it'll be a good test.
I'll start working on my water and change my flameout hop additions next go round.
Thanks ya'll, this was a big help.

You should work on your water chemistry for all your beers going forward.

 

[Gravelscratcher]

Yes, I plan to.
Wasn't prepared for that with this brew, but I plan to get on that next time.

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

Haven't read this thread but I am curious on you making great NEIPAs and not IPAs. Usually it's dead opposite. So here's my 2 cents.

1) Use RO water. Get proper chemistry and ensure pH is 5.2.
2) Very little bittering hops. Do whirlpool BELOW 150F.
3) Rack wort keeping the "trub/hop ball" at the bottom of the kettel away from fermenter.
4) Add secondary hops at day2 fermentation.
5) Ferment out yeast 10days-12days Cold crash for 2 days.
6) No oxygen transfers to keg or smoother bottles on CO2 prior to bottling.

That's about it....Good Luck

 

[Gravelscratcher]

My boil is good.
I've not been using hop bags, but I'm going to now.
Just got some w/ my new BIAB set up, so maybe that'll help too.
I can separate my hop additions in diff bags, so I guess I can now pull out the bittering hops, when I start the aroma hop additions.
That recipe was a clone for 2 Hearted...so that's why the hop schedule has aroma and bittering hop schedule the way it is.
I usually dont use aroma hops early in the boil like that.

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

I can attest that hop strainers/bags will hinder the flavor. Have you tried only cryo hops? Say 2-3oz in boil/WP and DH 2oz.

 

[Gravelscratcher]

Cryo hops are why I believe my NEIPA was so awsome
They impart 0 grassy or vegetable flavors.

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

Water chemistry/pH made a VERY noticeable difference. It's possible you're just ultra sensitive to grassy flavors. Everything I read about your process looks good except water chemistry. Are you leaving the "ball" in the kettel?

 

[tezcatlipoca]

I guess I could fill up a growler, and take it to the LHBS, to see what they think...that's about all I've got left.

Yeah, having someone taste it will be the best way to go for this. I have a bud who's one of those grandmaster whatever-whatever. He's helped me dial in a few things like mash pH.

 

[skw]

Mash pH is one thing, but what really improved my IPAs was using gypsum for water adjustment (as opposed to lactic acid). Sulfate may be the key ingredient to get the best from your hops in a west coast IPA (even though I'm aware of fantastic west coast IPAs that are made without added sulfate - rule, exception, yadda, yadda).

I'm about to conduct a series of experiments myself to explore the effects of post-boil hopping. I suspect that there are many variables at play (temperature, contact time, alcohol contents, pH, ...) and it isn't just a simple "x days @ y °C". Note how 0 min boil hopping and post-fermentation hop tea can both have about the same temperature and contact time, but are often reported to have different effects.

 

[brew703]

I brewed a IPA in November and I didn't care for it at first. After about 4 weeks in the keg, it's come around and is quite good. Same thing with the Bells Two Hearted. I think that one needs time to condition.

I have a crappy IC that can take a while to cool down wort with ground water. I have to use a pond pump and ice water to get temps to 80 or below so I know what you mean as I'm in Louisiana. I brewed a NEIPA yesterday using Omega OYL091. I cooled my wort to 83 degrees and pitched the yeast starter. This yeast started in 3 hours and is quite nice not to really have to worry about fermentation temps. Whichever yeast you are using could play a part in enhancing the vegetative flavor. Old grains could also be a culprit.

I don't like Centennial as a DH. When I use it, mostly goes into a WP at 170 degrees for 20 min.

Where are you getting your hops from? How old are they and how do you store them? If you are getting them from your LHBS then they could be somewhat aged. I buy my hops from Yakima Valley or Farmhouse and never had an issue.
I also store my hops in a vac sealed bag and in the freezer so they never see any oxygen.

I've never used Cyro hops but I've heard they do not produce the vegetative flavor so that could help your situation but those hops would dramatically increase your brew cost. If you haven't purchased hops from one of the supplies I mentioned, give them a try and see if those hops help.

Water chemistry is important but don't think it would cause vegetative issues. I would go with Distilled water on your next brew and use a water chemistry calculator to build your profile. It's pretty easy. You really only need Calcium chloride, gypsum and Lactic acid for PH adjustment. Non iodized salt and some Epsom is what I use. Since I am a BIAB brewer, I add all my additions in my strike water.

I would start with your hops. You could brew your favorite IPA recipe using only cyro hops and see if that solves the problem. I would buy a pound of Centennial from Yakima or Farmhouse and see how those work.

 

[Dland]

Sort has been said before, and it could be other things, but I would guess a factor is the steep part of your hop schedule. Either lower the IBUs of that step a lot, or let the wort cool below 170F before steeping.

I was having a similar problem getting a nice citrus finish in another style of beer with more subtle hop profile, and limiting the IBUs of that step eliminated the problem for me.

 

[Soulshine2]

.View attachment 604652
I put my 60 minute addition in a little early...kinda a first wort addition. Whirlpooled the flame out hops for about 15 or so.

try Mosaic and Citra

 

[balrog]

Good stuff there.
You and Blazin have got me thinking about those flameout hop temps.
And it's an easy thing to change/pay attention to
Appreciate that.

Edit:
I think it's time to move forward with some improvements to my routine.
Water adjustments and late hop temperatures are 2 areas I've been lacking.

At the very least try the simplified water chem outlined by @ajdelange in @Yooper 's post here. Note that in a recent post he has recommended halving the amounts from that old post.

 

[Vale71]

Cryo hops worked out though...go figure

Not much to figure out there. CryoHops have approximately 50% of vegetable inert matter removed compared to standard (i.e. type90) hops and that's obviously where your grassy taste is coming from.
Maybe you're extremely sensitive to those compounds and/or you're overdoing it with the dry hopping in amount and/or duration. I'd start by doing an IPA with only whirlpool additions first and then doing the same recipe with increasing amounts of dry hopping and see how far that gets you.

 

[Vale71]

Maybe you are just sensitive to whatever hop oils are isomerized(not sure if that’s the term) during the boil. Kinda like how some ppl can’t stand cilantro.

Also, You could drop/remove your DH addition after 24 hrs so you don’t over extract.

For me, I can really pick up on that band aid taste from yeast. Whether it be from chloramine or stress.

Isomerization only applies to resins, hop oils just evaporate during boil and that's the reason why you don't get any grassy notes from boil additions. Totally agree that duration is a very critical factor in DH.

 

[BrewsnBass]

Might be bad grain,hops,incorrect water or too much trub in fermenter from kettle or dry hopping.