Hydrochloric acid safe practices?

[whattabrau]

Literature says HCl is dangerous, but I haven't found anything written in terms of practical handling for a homebrewer (with apologies if such material does exist). background: I have high-alkalinity tap water which is single-digit mg/L except for Ca and CO3. I'm tired of removing the temporary alkality for pale brews for various reasons (time, lack of a large enough container, effort, cost, etc), so at least in some cases I want to try hydrochloric acid in the mix for neutralizing the alkalinity.

The options I've found for E507 are 4%, 10% and 37%, with the price for 1L being roughly the same. Is there any real difference between the danger of any of those, or am I just buying expensive water with anything except the 37%? I'm planning to store the container away from metals in an outdoor shed, which is not exactly airtight, but I do spend lengthy periods of time in there occasionally. I'm planning to put on gloves and goggles and prepare a dilute solution (<<1%) first thing on brewday, which at least in my mind puts me out of the danger zone for the rest of the brewday. If my calculations are correct, a volume of 10% HCl is enough to treat 1000-2000x water before the chloride levels get too high for most beers, making it pennies per liter, which I'd start finding acceptable if there is a safety benefit over the sub-penny liter cost of 37%.

I don't know where to get AMS locally; it seems to be about the equivalent strength of 10% HCl, and the lack of any excessive safety warnings on or around AMS discussions is making me think 10% HCl is not *too* dangerous. Though I'm not sure if the included sulfuric acid is making AMS less dangerous as compared to pure HCl (= reducing HCl off-gassing).

Finally, is HCl really all that much more dangerous than the 80% lactic and 75% phosphoric acids that I already use?

Bonus question (chemistry): does the order in which the acids are added in matter? I'm guessing yes, at least in theory for phosphoric acid where the second pKa is a hair above 7, i.e. if added first you get at least some of the phosphoric acid to protonate twice and bubble some of the CO3 out as CO2. Correct, or "that's not how chemistry works", or correct but [ignoring apatite] the effect is negligible in reality? If nobody knows, I guess I can figure this out with a pH meter once I have the HCl, and from the experimental result work back towards the chemistry.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

AMS is 1.842 normal (N) in H2SO4, and 1.813 Normal (N) in HCl. At the same time...

Combined Normality is 3.655N.

 

[mac_1103]

MW of HCl is 36.4 so. 37% is 1N, which isn't all that dangerous IMHO. At least compared to the concentrated stuff (10N, e.g.) which should only be used in a chemical fume hood.

EDIT: as has been pointed out, I mixed up g/ml and g/mol. Guess I'm a bit rusty and I posted too fast. My apologies.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

37% HCl is on the order of 12.1 Normal. It is extremely dangerous.

Please don't hurt yourself or others due to your current complete lack of understanding.

 

[jambop]

Well because I have worked in science all my life I would have no problem going for the 37% and taking appropriate personal protection that really means a face shield and acid resistant gloves . You are not pouring directly from a bottle though you must use a graduated pipette and a pipette filler. These are easily bought from Amazon. The other important thing when diluting acid is ALWAYS add acid to water. Now hydrochloric is not particularly exothermic but sulphuric acid is very dangerous stuff if you do it wrong. Now getting back to the acid if you buy the 37% you can easily dilute some of that to 10% in distilled water and store it in a plastic bottle properly labeled with the appropriate warnings and kept away from anybody but yourself. The advantage of that is you have reduced the risk a little when you use the 10% to doctor you brew water. I hope that has helped you a little .
In answer to the relative dangers if you take my advice about personal protection you should be fine. For example you want to dilute your 37% acid to 10% so that is about 27 ml of the 37% diluted to 100ml with dH2O . So what I would do is in a decent tray ( in case of spillage) put about 60ml of distilled water in a beaker and carefully add the 27 ml of 37% HCl then mix carefully and pour into a clean measuring cylinder then adjust to 100 ml with distilled water. Now pour this into a bottle put the cap on and invert a few times to mix. If you are asking I would make 10% from the 37% and use that I am Scottish and you are getting almost four times as much for you money buying 37% over 10%
The thing is that if you do things carefully you can use the 37% as is but only if you have the right size of pipettes to make the additions. The key is your personal protection eyes and hands

edit
as has been pointed out by another poster Hydrochloric acid at that concentration is quite volatile and a fume hood would be appropriate for handling I therefore advise going for 10% and still take all the precautions when using this solution. This sort of thing is all about experience I have over forty years so am possibly a little too blasé

 

[jambop]

MW of HCl is 36.4 so. 37% is 1N, which isn't all that dangerous IMHO. At least compared to the concentrated stuff (10N, e.g.) which should only be used in a chemical fume hood.

Eh!!! 37 g per 100 ml is approx 12 Molar do not offer advice unless you know what you are talking about!!!!!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

There are 50 mL of concentrated Sulfuric Acid and 150 mL of concentrated Hydrochloric Acid in every Liter of a nominal working equivalent to AMS (CRS). Use all appropriate PPE and acid handling and dilution practices. The fumes alone can destroy your lungs. Let alone the damage that the corrosiveness can inflict upon your eyes and your body. Never add water to acid.

That plus: 50 mL of 98% H2SO4 plus 150 mL of 37.2% HCl plus 800 mL of deionized water does not = 1,000 mL of final solution.

 

[jambop]

There are 50 mL of concentrated Sulfuric Acid and 150 mL of concentrated Hydrochloric Acid in every Liter of a nominal working equivalent to AMS (CRS). Use all appropriate PPE and acid handling and dilution practices. The fumes alone can destroy your lungs. Let alone the damage that the corrosiveness can inflict upon your eyes and your body. Never add water to acid.

That plus: 50 mL of 98% H2SO4 plus 150 mL of 37.2% HCl plus 800 mL of deionized water does not = 1,000 mL of final solution.

AMS is solution containing 1M sulphuric acid 2M hydrochloric acid per litre. I am not disagreeing with any of your comments but this substance is available to any home brewer in the UK mail order. It is a dangerous substance but lets not go over board appropriate personal protection care is required and dilution should take place in a tray in a well vented area. A fume hood is not required I would not even consider an acid fumes absorbent face mask as essential .
Edit
5 ml the AMS solution when added to 100L reduces alkalinity by approx 9ppm .

 

[whattabrau]

Well because I have worked in science all my life

Me2, but it has been in the front of a keyboard, and not particularly helpful here ;-)

a face shield

I have one full-face shield I use with the angle grinder. Is that sufficient, or are there some other requirements besides protecting from splashes?

and acid resistant gloves .

I have these gloves: Ansell AlphaTec® Solvex® 37-175 chemical-resistant gloves

Are they even remotely correct? I don't know what the magic keyword for acid resistance is. They do limit my dexterity, so if they don't protect from the acid they're downright harmful.

You are not pouring directly from a bottle though you must use a graduated pipette and a pipette filler. These are easily bought from Amazon.

I have graduated pipettes that I use for the other acids, but I do fill small bottles by pouring from the big bottles. Do you think I could chance straight pouring into a small HDPE bottle with 10% HCl, or should I get a pipette filler? If the latter, can you provide an example of one? There seems to be a wide price and model range for them, so I want to know I'm getting the correct type.

as has been pointed out by another poster Hydrochloric acid at that concentration is quite volatile and a fume hood would be appropriate for handling I therefore advise going for 10% and still take all the precautions when using this solution. This sort of thing is all about experience I have over forty years so am possibly a little too blasé

Yea I think 10% is better. This is not something I want to learn about using trial-and-error with most dangerous possible substance, even if I save 20 cents per batch.

Let's say I dilute 10-20mL of the 10% HCl into 1L of water in an outdoor shed while wearing a face mask and gloves. Is the resulting concentration reasonably safe to handle without PPE? Is diluting into tap water ok (adding acid to water), or does it cause a violent reaction with a sudden release of CO2?

Thanks!

 

[whattabrau]

That plus: 50 mL of 98% H2SO4 plus 150 mL of 37.2% HCl plus 800 mL of deionized water does not = 1,000 mL of final solution.

Right, but if you add it to, say 750mL and then top up to 1000mL, the v/v works out. Plus, if you're diluting for a single batch by adding 5mL to 1000mL, then the *maximum* error is 0.5%, which is quite sufficient for homebrewing.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

AMS is solution containing 1M sulphuric acid 2M hydrochloric acid per litre. I am not disagreeing with any of your comments but this substance is available to any home brewer in the UK mail order. It is a dangerous substance but lets not go over board appropriate personal protection care is required and dilution should take place in a tray in a well vented area. A fume hood is not required I would not even consider an acid fumes absorbent face mask as essential .
Edit
5 ml the AMS solution when added to 100L reduces alkalinity by approx 9ppm .

There is no need for the spread of such misinformation on this forum.

 

[jambop]

Me2, but it has been in the front of a keyboard, and not particularly helpful here ;-)



I have one full-face shield I use with the angle grinder. Is that sufficient, or are there some other requirements besides protecting from splashes?



I have these gloves: Ansell AlphaTec® Solvex® 37-175 chemical-resistant gloves

Are they even remotely correct? I don't know what the magic keyword for acid resistance is. They do limit my dexterity, so if they don't protect from the acid they're downright harmful.



I have graduated pipettes that I use for the other acids, but I do fill small bottles by pouring from the big bottles. Do you think I could chance straight pouring into a small HDPE bottle with 10% HCl, or should I get a pipette filler? If the latter, can you provide an example of one? There seems to be a wide price and model range for them, so I want to know I'm getting the correct type.



Yea I think 10% is better. This is not something I want to learn about using trial-and-error with most dangerous possible substance, even if I save 20 cents per batch.

Let's say I dilute 10-20mL of the 10% HCl into 1L of water in an outdoor shed while wearing a face mask and gloves. Is the resulting concentration reasonably safe to handle without PPE? Is diluting into tap water ok (adding acid to water), or does it cause a violent reaction with a sudden release of CO2?

Thanks!

In all honesty I would say that if you wear gloves and a face shield and carry out your first addition of 10% hydrochloric acid in a work tray to a portion of the brewing liquor you will be fine taking what you need directly from the bottle as 10% hydrochloric is far less aggressive than 37% which will be fuming!
So to summarise you have keyed in you water analysis into you calculator and it says add 2.5 ml of 10% hydrochloric acid to 20 L of brew liquor. You should take 500ml of that measured volume in a beaker and put it in the work tray. Then put the bottle of 10% hydrochloric acid in the work tray to the side of the beaker. Remove the cap and at arms length, don't go sniffing at the neck of the bottle , take a clean 5 ml pipette with a suitable filler fitted and carefully draw up 2.5ml of the acid. Transfer that into the beaker containing the brew liquor and give it a stir. Replace the cap on the HCl bottle. The contents of the beaker can now be transferred to the bulk of the brew liquor and thoroughly mixed through it. Put you acid safely to its storage place. Wash the pipette and the beaker thoroughly ... job done. Take off you safety gear.
Re PPE you are dilution an already diluted acid but care is still required! Your face shield should be perfectly fine to do this work. If I was doing work in my former place of work I would be wearing more probably safety glasses and gloves in addition to my standard laboratory coat on an open bench in a work tray designed to catch a spill if you were handless enough to knock the bottle over.

 

[jambop]

There is no need for the spread of such misinformation on this forum.

What is your point here? The AMS is an solution containing equi normal sulphuric acid/ hydrochloric acid . There is not need for breathing aids or a fume hood to use this solution and it can be bought online in the UK. And by adding 5ml of such solution 1hl of brew liquor will see a reduction of about 9 ppm of alkalinity as CaCO3 where is the misinformation??
It should also be noted that sulphate and chloride concentrations are increased by 4.4 and 3.2 ppm respectively. This is a far better solution for alkalinity regulation than nearly all other acids especially ortho phosphoric acid which precipitates valuable Calcium as insoluble calcium phosphate.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The point is that although it is nearly equi-normal it isn't quite equi-normal, and it's acid strength is not as you express it, nor would be it's Cl- and SO4-- contributions. I have a entire threads dedicated to this subject on this very forum.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...like-acid-blend-solution.697082/#post-9203771
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...o4-such-as-a-blend-similar-to-ams-crs.687876/

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Here's but a mini-sneak preview:

...someone on a UK forum tipped that they add 5 Winchesters of 98% H2SO4 and 15 Winchesters of 37.2% HCl to water that is 'made up' to a final volume of 100 Winchesters. A Winchester in modern parlance equals 2.5 Liters.

 

[jambop]

Here's but a mini-sneak preview:

The figures I quoted for Alkalinity and SO4 and Cl ppm changes comes directly from Murphy and Sons The also state it is an equi normal mix of H2SO4 and HCl .
For the avoidance of doubt this solution is used by many commercial brewers the solution can be bought in 10hl containers !

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

You clearly have not read my dissertation then.

 

[AlexKay]

Yes, concentrated HCl is substantially more dangerous than concentrated lactic acid.

If you must use HCl, buy the 4%. You could think of it as paying more for water, or you could think of it as paying a professional to do the most dangerous part of the job for you.

What's wrong with lactic or phosphoric acids?! Is this about saving money ... and if so, how much money is this really going to save, either per gallon of beer, or per year of homebrewing? I'm guessing the savings will be pretty minimal.

If despite all this, you want to go this route, at a bare minimum you must use chemical safety goggles ... not regular glasses, not goggles you use when you operate machinery, something specifically designed to be used by chemists. Frankly, I wouldn't work with concentrated HCl without a hood and an eyewash station. Seriously think about keeping a portable eyewash station in arms' reach, and know how to use it.

 

[PCABrewing]

I have one full-face shield I use with the angle grinder. Is that sufficient, or are there some other requirements besides protecting from splashes?

Your questions cause me to say Don't mess with it!

But if you really feel you have to prove yourself:

Some means of flushing your self, especially your eyes, and the area with a good volume of water, like a safety shower if absolutely key.

And know where it is at all times and how to use it while in extreme pain, with your eyes closed. You have less than a minute to get it rinsed.

Have someone there to drive you to the ER after the rinse down should things go south.

I have had weak acid in my eyes and it is no fun.
I also rescued a young man who got battery acid (Sulfuric) in his eyes and he was helpless without someone there to guide him to safety. After being stunned by the battery explosion he was blind and helpless and the clock was running on his eyesight.

 

[whattabrau]

So to summarise [...]

Ok, work on a spill tray in a ventilated area, use face shield [and goggles underneath] and gloves, calculated amount of 10% into 500mL in glassware. Work at arm's length just like pouring water into caramelized sugar, and no sniffing ... which I admittedly always do for a sulfite solution :-/

Wash everything that touched the 10% thoroughly and immediately. Then, have 10 beers and start dancing around 20-40L of boiling liquid while juggling glass carboys because it's safe now.

Thanks!

 

[whattabrau]

What's wrong with lactic or phosphoric acids?!

Need so much that there are other impacts. I'm looking to spread the conjugate pairs out, and HCl for my water is essentially the equivalent of removing temporary alkalinity and adding CaCl2.

I do have a citric+phosphoric+lactic acid pale kveik experiment going. Thought the citrus might work in there, but at least the mash tasted "weird". Will know tomorrow.

 

[camonick]

Why not dilute with distilled/ RO water or start from scratch with either? The risks seem ridiculously high when other options are available. Just my 2¢.

 

[jambop]

Why not dilute with distilled/ RO water or start from scratch with either? The risks seem ridiculously high when other options are available. Just my 2¢.

I shall say this only once. A very large mountain is being made from a mole hill . The man is going to be using 10% Hydrochloric acid solution taken from a bottle using a pipette and filler while wearing gloves and a suitable shield to protect his face in a work tray in a well vented area when there is nobody else around to interfere with his work . The likely hood of him getting acid in his eyes performing such a procedure is extremely remote indeed . I am by admission more blasé while performing this exact task as I am a very experienced laboratory worker however I perform exactly the same procedure without using any of the PPE the OP is going to use other than my standard eye glasses . Some may say I am being foolish but then have to understand 50 years ago I worked in a metallurgical analysis laboratory. The acids I used there make 10% HCl look like eau de cologne... and we had no PPE what so ever how things have changed. People use HCl at concentrations of 28% to regulate the pH of their swimming pools ! The risk when using 10% HCl are not ridiculously high end of!

 

[AlexKay]

I am a very experienced laboratory worker however I perform exactly the same procedure without using any of the PPE the OP is going to use other than my standard eye glasses . Some may say I am being foolish ...

If you are working in a lab without PPE, then yes, you are being foolish. You know that. You probably also know that accidents happen either (1) to inexperienced workers who don't know what they are doing, but also (w) to "experienced" workers who have gotten careless.

The OP has gotten advice that (1) he should use the most dilute acid that will do the job; (2) he should always wear chemical safety goggles, and should have a portable eye-wash immediately available; and (3) that he should treat the acid with a great deal of respect. This is not "making a mountain out of a molehill." If you're suggesting that the OP be less careful than all of that, you're not just being foolish, you're being irresponsible.

 

[jambop]

If you are working in a lab without PPE, then yes, you are being foolish. You know that. You probably also know that accidents happen either (1) to inexperienced workers who don't know what they are doing, but also (w) to "experienced" workers who have gotten careless.

The OP has gotten advice that (1) he should use the most dilute acid that will do the job; (2) he should always wear chemical safety goggles, and should have a portable eye-wash immediately available; and (3) that he should treat the acid with a great deal of respect. This is not "making a mountain out of a molehill." If you're suggesting that the OP be less careful than all of that, you're not just being foolish, you're being irresponsible.

Go back and read my posts I am not suggesting that at all. Do you wear and PPE when you put common or garden vinegar on your food? In a laboratory you do good its a regulation. Quality wine vinegar is 6% acetic acid more than enough to cause severe irritation to the eyes
I have given the OP very good advice and will leave it at that.

 

[whattabrau]

Do you wear and PPE when you put common or garden vinegar on your food? In a laboratory you do good its a regulation. Quality wine vinegar is 6% acetic acid more than enough to cause severe irritation to the eyes

Heh, interesting, you can buy 25% vinegar from the store around here, and it has never occurred to me that it might be dangerous. I have gotten dilute vinegar in my eye, but luckily it was from a fruit fly trap so it had soap in it and washed out on its own. Yes I'm kidding about the effect of soap -- I'm sure it didn't help with the stinging. It was one of those one-in-million things where I swirled to combine and somehow drops flew out straight into my eye.

HCl is a tool, and like all tools it has risks and benefits. Thanks to everyone for their insights!

 

[jambop]

Heh, interesting, you can buy 25% vinegar from the store around here, and it has never occurred to me that it might be dangerous. I have gotten dilute vinegar in my eye, but luckily it was from a fruit fly trap so it had soap in it and washed out on its own. Yes I'm kidding about the effect of soap -- I'm sure it didn't help with the stinging. It was one of those one-in-million things where I swirled to combine and somehow drops flew out straight into my eye.

HCl is a tool, and like all tools it has risks and benefits. Thanks to everyone for their insights!

I told you what I would do with my experience but to be honest this addition is within the scope of any intelligent person. If you follow my instructions there will be no problems using 10% HCl

 

[bike2brew]

Well because I have worked in science all my life I would have no problem going for the 37% and taking appropriate personal protection that really means a face shield and acid resistant gloves . You are not pouring directly from a bottle though you must use a graduated pipette and a pipette filler. These are easily bought from Amazon. The other important thing when diluting acid is ALWAYS add acid to water. Now hydrochloric is not particularly exothermic but sulphuric acid is very dangerous stuff if you do it wrong. Now getting back to the acid if you buy the 37% you can easily dilute some of that to 10% in distilled water and store it in a plastic bottle properly labeled with the appropriate warnings and kept away from anybody but yourself. The advantage of that is you have reduced the risk a little when you use the 10% to doctor you brew water. I hope that has helped you a little .
In answer to the relative dangers if you take my advice about personal protection you should be fine. For example you want to dilute your 37% acid to 10% so that is about 27 ml of the 37% diluted to 100ml with dH2O . So what I would do is in a decent tray ( in case of spillage) put about 60ml of distilled water in a beaker and carefully add the 27 ml of 37% HCl then mix carefully and pour into a clean measuring cylinder then adjust to 100 ml with distilled water. Now pour this into a bottle put the cap on and invert a few times to mix. If you are asking I would make 10% from the 37% and use that I am Scottish and you are getting almost four times as much for you money buying 37% over 10%
The thing is that if you do things carefully you can use the 37% as is but only if you have the right size of pipettes to make the additions. The key is your personal protection eyes and hands

edit
as has been pointed out by another poster Hydrochloric acid at that concentration is quite volatile and a fume hood would be appropriate for handling I therefore advise going for 10% and still take all the precautions when using this solution. This sort of thing is all about experience I have over forty years so am possibly a little too blasé

Also, storage for it and the other acid needs to be separate from all of the organic flammable compounds and a leak containment plan in place. I use a Nalgene dish pan for each of the acids in my lab and their storage in a vented hazmat cabinet. Not exactly home application but that's those are the requirements we meet.

 

[Stibnut]

I'd advise going for 10% too - it is neither very volatile nor very dangerous* at that concentration, but 30%+ is far worse. HCl has this peculiar property where it doesn't give off a whole lot of HCl vapor below its azeotrope (20.2%), but its volatility shoots way up when concentrated past it, so that the usual concentrated 37% stuff or the 31% hardware store variety both evolve a lot of nasty, corrosive fumes of hydrogen chloride.

That said, it is still less corrosive to human skin than most other mineral acids even at high concentrations. It doesn't have sulfuric acid's dehydrating properties, or nitric acid's oxidizing behavior. Since it is a gas at RT, it is only available diluted in water which mitigates the harms somewhat too. I still don't like it because of the pungent fumes and because it and its fumes are highly corrosive to most metals. But it is definitely less likely to severely burn you than sulfuric or nitric, and only about as hazardous to the skin as concentrated phosphoric or glacial acetic - i.e. if you wash it off within about a minute your skin would be fine.

*It is still quite dangerous to the eyes even at 10%. Safety glasses or goggles are absolutely required.

 

[madscientist451]

I think many people on this forum have a high level of intelligence, much higher than me.
However, does being intelligent mean the same thing as having "common sense"?
Jeeze, if your tap water sucks there are plenty of ways to deal with it without involving dangerous chemicals.
Enuf said, be safe y'all......