How to use oxygen to aerate wort?

[Minky]

I think that the question of how, and how much, to aerate is dependent on too many variables to specify a "best" method or time.

As previously stated, oxygen is only needed in the growth stage of yeast. The only reason to oxygenate wort is when yeast is pitched at a lower cell count than necessary for the quantity of wort being fermented. In theory, if the yeast has been previously oxygenated in the process of making a starter, and has been built up to a sufficient cell count, there should be no need to aerate the wort at all. Fermentation takes place anaerobically. Dry yeasts, in particular, have been through the whole growth stage and, as long as the viable cell count is high enough, they should be good to go without any further oxygen.

I had personally been plagued with sluggish and, at times, high FG fermentations back when I was using pure oxygen for aeration. Once, I even had a beer judge comment that my beer was oxidized, and it was only 6 weeks old! I then switched to a an aquarium pump, and noticed an immediate improvement in fermentation times and FG's. I believe, under the right conditions, that aeration of wort is not necessary and can, in fact, be detrimental.

I will be brewing in the next week or two, and I am going to put my theory to further test. I will pitch two packs of US-05 in a 5 gal. batch. The only aeration it will receive is whatever splashing occurs as it is transferred into the fermenter and moved.

 

[bbbrew]

I think it's a stretch to call that thing a regulator since it does not regulate at all as far as i can tell. for the price of that kit you are half way to a O2 cylinder that would last for hundreds of batches if not more, a real regulator would be around $40 at harbor freight.

I'm going to chime in here without any scientific evidence. I used the 1/8 oz of pure O2 when I first started brewing. That HD 6$ purchase every 3rd brew became a pain in the rear. An aquarium pump with sufficient flow and a stone @ 10/15 minutes seems to foam up just fine. The final outcome is strong yeast production in the early stages and then complete fermentation.

So try what you can afford to do. Just don't skimp on sanitation at such a critical stage. BB

 

[bja]

I had personally been plagued with sluggish and, at times, high FG fermentations back when I was using pure oxygen for aeration. Once, I even had a beer judge comment that my beer was oxidized, and it was only 6 weeks old!

I used the 1/8 oz of pure O2 when I first started brewing. That HD 6$ purchase every 3rd brew became a pain in the rear.

I hope you guys realize that you were using about 100 times more O2 than was needed. Three brews from one O2 canister? Really?

I brew 10 gallons every 2-3 weeks and have been using the same canister for about 2-1/2 years.

 

[Minky]

I hope you guys realize that you were using about 100 times more O2 than was needed. Three brews from one O2 canister? Really?

I brew 10 gallons every 2-3 weeks and have been using the same canister for about 2-1/2 years.

I can guarantee that I was using NOWHERE NEAR that amount. Your ASSumption is incorrect.

 

[bja]

I can guarantee that I was using NOWHERE NEAR that amount. Your ASSumption is incorrect.

Once, I even had a beer judge comment that my beer was oxidized, and it was only 6 weeks old! I then switched to a an aquarium pump, and noticed an immediate improvement in fermentation times and FG's.

Sounds to me like you were using way, way too much.

 

[Minky]

Sounds to me like you were using way, way too much.

And that was the entire premise of my post. Three brews per canister is obviously WAY "too much", but "too much" can also be the 30-40 seconds of pure O2 that I was using. My experience with O2 led me to conclude that O2 was not necessary, and could be detrimental. It may be useful, or even necessary, in a commercial brewery, but they have the equipment to test oxygen levels, etc. I think O2 is total overkill at the homebrew level.

If you underpitch yeast you will definitely need to aerate the wort to bring the cell count up, but you don't know how much is too much. Build up your cell counts with a healthy starter before you pitch, and you should be be OK without having to worry about "how much is too much". And you definitely won't need pure O2.

 

[eastoak]

And that was the entire premise of my post. Three brews per canister is obviously WAY "too much", but "too much" can also be the 30-40 seconds of pure O2 that I was using. My experience with O2 led me to conclude that O2 was not necessary, and could be detrimental. It may be useful, or even necessary, in a commercial brewery, but they have the equipment to test oxygen levels, etc. I think O2 is total overkill at the homebrew level.

If you underpitch yeast you will definitely need to aerate the wort to bring the cell count up, but you don't know how much is too much. Build up your cell counts with a healthy starter before you pitch, and you should be be OK without having to worry about "how much is too much". And you definitely won't need pure O2.

not true.

 

[Minky]

not true.

OOOOOOOKAY..........................................that's all ya got? No explanation? Do you really intend to suggest that pure O2 from a tank is necessary for aeration? Air isn't good enough?

OK. Check out what brewing expert, Eric Watson, has to say:

http://www.beertools.com/html/articles.php?view=245

Here's Eric's surprising advice on aerating wort:

"If possible, don't! The reason is that it is not the wort that needs the oxygen, it is the yeast. By oxygenating the wort instead of the yeast starter, it will cause an over production of cells due to the excessive oxygen presence. This then leads to the production of unwanted esters and higher alcohols that will compromise beer flavor.

When oxygenating starters, you cannot use pure O2... the reason is that the uptake occurs too fast and without a dissolved O2 meter ($$$), you cannot tell when to stop. The way to properly do this one is to aerate using a high pressure aquarium pump, sterile air filter and a stainless steel aeration stone, all of which are readily available. It is virtually impossible to over-aerate using air, so you will avoid oxygen toxicity problems that will occur if trying to do this with pure oxygen."

When using dried yeast, he recommends no aeration at all. The yeast was properly aerated before drying and has been properly prepared for the fermentation immediately. Just rehydrate the yeast (he recommends 90deg water) for 30 minutes and dump into the non-aerated wort.

Please note that I am not advocating no aeration at all. I'm advocating against the use of pure O2.

 

[eastoak]

OOOOOOOKAY..........................................that's all ya got? No explanation? Do you really intend to suggest that pure O2 from a tank is necessary for aeration? Air isn't good enough?

OK. Check out what brewing expert, Eric Watson, has to say:

http://www.beertools.com/html/articles.php?view=245

Here's Eric's surprising advice on aerating wort:

"If possible, don't! The reason is that it is not the wort that needs the oxygen, it is the yeast. By oxygenating the wort instead of the yeast starter, it will cause an over production of cells due to the excessive oxygen presence. This then leads to the production of unwanted esters and higher alcohols that will compromise beer flavor.

When oxygenating starters, you cannot use pure O2... the reason is that the uptake occurs too fast and without a dissolved O2 meter ($$$), you cannot tell when to stop. The way to properly do this one is to aerate using a high pressure aquarium pump, sterile air filter and a stainless steel aeration stone, all of which are readily available. It is virtually impossible to over-aerate using air, so you will avoid oxygen toxicity problems that will occur if trying to do this with pure oxygen."

When using dried yeast, he recommends no aeration at all. The yeast was properly aerated before drying and has been properly prepared for the fermentation immediately. Just rehydrate the yeast (he recommends 90deg water) for 30 minutes and dump into the non-aerated wort.

Please note that I am not advocating no aeration at all. I'm advocating against the use of pure O2.

yeah, that guy also says that we shouldn't first wort hop because it's detrimental to head retention.

i also learned that dextrins are not related to mouthfeel. interesting to say the least.

if it were true that pure O2 was detrimental lots of us here would have probably noticed by now, not to mention all of the commercial craft brewers who use pure O2. in my case i won 2nd place at the world beer cup with an american pale ale that got at least a minute of pure O2. if you are saying that my beer will be better using just air and not pure O2 i'll have to back to doing it that way. i remember my beer getting better after going to pure O2 but i'll try it out anyway.

 

[ArcLight]

>.My experience with O2 led me to conclude that O2 was not necessary, and could be detrimental.

>>Please note that I am not advocating no aeration at all. I'm advocating against the use of pure O2.


Not according to the Yeast book, by Chris White.
But what does he know about yeast?

 

[Minky]

Thanks to eastoak and Arclight for their responses. I hope that I haven't come off as too confrontational. I am still searching out the truth, as we all are.

I think that pure O2 in a commercial application makes sense. I just don't believe it's necessary at the homebrew level. It's much easier to introduce oxygen into wort in a 5 gallon batch than it is at commercial volumes. I think that some of the advice imparted by the pros to the homebrewers doesn't apply due to the difference in volumes.

To Arclight I would ask, what does Chris White say? Does he say that pure O2 is preferable over air in a homebrew?

 

[ArcLight]

>>To Arclight I would ask, what does Chris White say? Does he say that pure O2 is preferable over air in a homebrew?

Pretty much.


>>Thanks to eastoak and Arclight for their responses. I hope that I haven't come off as too confrontational.

Lets just say I would not post the way you did. Especially if I was not certain of what I was talking about.



>>I am still searching out the truth, as we all are.

Speak for yourself. I use an Oxygen wand. The only question I have is if enough O2 dissolves in the wort, or does it bubble out and get lost? I use a low flow rate, for 60-90 seconds. And I shake/rock the fermentor for 60 seconds. On a thread I started a few months ago (I think) when I asked about bubble size (0.5 vs 2 micron) someone said that it wasn't taht the )2 instantly dissolved in liquid, the liquid had to be agitated.

 

[Minky]

OK, Arclight.
I shouldn't have posted as I did because I'm not sure of myself? I shouldn't say we're all "searching for truth" because you already know the truth? Is that what you're saying?

Well, I quoted my "expert". I don't know if he's right, but you apparently feel that Chris White is a better "expert". I have no reason to doubt you, but when I ask if he prefers pure O2 aeration in homebrewing, you respond with "pretty much"? Seems like a pretty weak response to me. Why didn't you quote him?

I really don't know what to think about your response. Maybe you could clarify a little.

 

[ArcLight]

>> I don't know if he's right, but you apparently feel that Chris White is a better "expert". I have no reason to doubt you, but when I ask if he prefers pure O2 aeration in homebrewing, you respond with "pretty much"? Seems like a pretty weak response to me. Why didn't you quote him?

When you make beer, and add yeast. What yest do you use? Wyeast? White Labs? Muntons? Etc. Chris White is the person who founded White Labs.
He has a Ph.D in biochemistry, and also works with various breweries. Not just some ivory tower academic, he has to satisfy very demanding customers.

In the book, he (and his co-author) discuss oxygenation of wort. They compare different methods. They discuss why it's needed. Its a rare home brewer who over oxygenates their wort. The book has some charts and tables that show various results from different Oxygenation methods.
Proper oxygenation will help to make a better tasting beer, but no guarantees.

 

[Xpertskir]

Glad I found this thread before starting another. Clearly yeast need oxygen, not nitrogen, co2, methane, or any of the other components of "air". My grandma who is awesome, gave me a full and quite large medical tank with a regulator(for brewing). I plan on getting a defusing stone or potentially just going with the Williams wand. Does anyone have any advice as to how to best use this tank to get oxygen to my yeast? What is the best tubing to use and is the aquarium supply route the easiest and cheapest?

Thanks.

 

[wolfstar]

I have been reading through the old posts regarding aerating wort with oxygen.
I have seen posts from " a light stream of bubbles for the last couple of minutes of chilling" to 5 or 10 liters per minute with no time frame given.

I have a couple of medical oxygen tanks since my mother passed in December and was wondering how to put them to use. I can get a 2 micron stone but would like to know how to most efficiently use it.
Thank you

Just do your mom good and name the brews in referance to her

 

[jdlawlis]

According to WYeast's website:

"Some yeast strains have higher oxygen requirements than others. It is generally safe to assume that you need at least 10ppm of oxygen. 10ppm will supply adequate oxygen in most situations. Over-oxygenation is generally not a concern as the yeast will use all available oxygen within 3 to 9 hours of pitching and oxygen will come out of solution during that time as well. Under-oxygenation is a much bigger concern."

 

[Nagorg]

I have been transferring my wort from kettle to carboy through a funnel that has a strainer in it. This seems to aerate the wort pretty well by itself from what I can tell. I think it's much like what happens to tap water from my faucet as it flows through the attached screen. So far I havent had any issues with this that I am aware of.

But, since I am always wanting to improve my process and the finished product I recently bought an O2 regulator and SS stone. Reading this thread has made me doubt this will actually improve anything at all. Guess I'll just have to try it and see for myself. Hopefully this wont wind up being as useless as the copper pre-chiller I purchased...

 

[brewguyver]

The yeast book Arclight refers to has a good table on how much O2 you can get into wort by each method.

The crux of the matter is boiling removes available oxygen from wort, and yeast need It. There is a fixed maximum output you can get by agitation, using an air pump, or even bubbling pure o2 without an airstone.

That said, home brewing is both science and art - it seems the pure O2 is most important if you're repitching yeast over multiple generations and/or trying to get the exact same beer every time. If one method works for you and you get great results, it'll be a while before you'll be happy with a different approach.

 

[roymeo]

Only way to really know: split a batch and aerate them differently then compare.

 

[ArcLight]

Glad I found this thread before starting another. Clearly yeast need oxygen, not nitrogen, co2, methane, or any of the other components of "air". My grandma who is awesome, gave me a full and quite large medical tank with a regulator(for brewing). I plan on getting a defusing stone or potentially just going with the Williams wand. Does anyone have any advice as to how to best use this tank to get oxygen to my yeast? What is the best tubing to use and is the aquarium supply route the easiest and cheapest?

Thanks.

I have the Williams wand, and its pretty convenient.
Having said that, the Oxygen stone is 2 microns. Austin Home Brew sells an oxygenation system with a 0.5 micron stone. I wonder if those bubbles are more easily absorbed by (dissolved into) the wort? You can use some stainless steel nuts to weigh down the stone, because the plastic tubing will make it float.

 

[travis123]

I have my mixing bucket on the bench full of Wort & my Fermenter below it, I open the tap on the bucket & let the Wort drop into the Fermenter adding the yeast as it drops. This gives "plenty" of aeration & I get a bubble in the air-lock within the hour.



Works for me.



Regards Travis

 

[ArcLight]

>>I have my mixing bucket on the bench full of Wort & my Fermenter below it, I open the tap on the bucket & let the Wort drop into the Fermenter adding the yeast as it drops. This gives "plenty" of aeration

Probably not.

It's not that your yeast wont make beer, of course they will. But they would probably benefit from more dissolved Oxygen.


>>Works for me.

Just because you don't perceive any problems when your process is not good, doesn't mean it's ok.

If you don't do a lot of things, you will still get beer. The objective is to make great beer, not "ok" beer.

You don't have to make a yeast starter. You can under pitch and you will get beer.
"I never make a yeast starter, get a bubble in the air-lock within the hour. Works for me."


You don't have to clean so well, you might not get an infection.
"I just rinse out my plate chiller, I don't bother soaking it in PBW or Starsan, I've never gotten an infection. Works for me."

You don't have to ferment at correct temperatures, you will still get beer.
"My fermentor is in my garage, and the temperature fluctuates by 20 degrees daily. My beer tastes great. My friends Bubba and JoeBob never detect any off flavors. Works for me."

 

[travis123]

I don't have access to disovled oxygen, however methane is not a problem

 

[Brulosopher]

Hmm... before I found this thread, I was advised that an easy way to aerate your wort was with a paint mixer attachment on a drill. So I bought one at Home Depot and gave it a good wash - is it safe to use this in my wort, even though it was intended (but never yet used for) mixing paint? Will 2-3 minutes of vigorous mixing with this thing on my drill sufficiently aerate my wort?

That's exactly what I do, in addition to properly sized starters, with great success. Cheers!

 

[travis123]

Your comments I treat with almost contempt, your initial reply "probably not" indicates no knowledge of the procedure I described & you have obviously not tried it? The method I use actually creates an immense amount of oxygenation. Your cynical anecdotes of "it works for me" is a little undermining of the brewers out there like me who try different methods & "yes" it works for me & them.



As a Senior Manager with a large Utility, I would never rebuff a suggestion or a procedure or process without checking it out to see iff it did or didn't work (there is profit to be made from an idea)



Here in the UK we have really good local Brewers, my goal is to taste a good beer in a Pub & replicate it at home (& I do)



I attend Brewery tours, listen to the Brewer in Charge, ask questions & act on the answers.



(I also buy my grain & yeast from a local Brewer)



I am no Spring Chicken



Regards Travis

 

[BadBeagleBrew]

This is getting heated, I use a tube with a motorcycle fuel filter and blow through it for a few secs. Great beer every time.

 

[roymeo]

>>I have my mixing bucket on the bench full of Wort & my Fermenter below it, I open the tap on the bucket & let the Wort drop into the Fermenter adding the yeast as it drops. This gives "plenty" of aeration

Probably not.

It's not that your yeast wont make beer, of course they will. But they would probably benefit from more dissolved Oxygen.


>>Works for me.

Just because you don't perceive any problems when your process is not good, doesn't mean it's ok.

If you don't do a lot of things, you will still get beer. The objective is to make great beer, not "ok" beer.

You don't have to make a yeast starter. You can under pitch and you will get beer.
"I never make a yeast starter, get a bubble in the air-lock within the hour. Works for me."


You don't have to clean so well, you might not get an infection.
"I just rinse out my plate chiller, I don't bother soaking it in PBW or Starsan, I've never gotten an infection. Works for me."

You don't have to ferment at correct temperatures, you will still get beer.
"My fermentor is in my garage, and the temperature fluctuates by 20 degrees daily. My beer tastes great. My friends Bubba and JoeBob never detect any off flavors. Works for me."

All of those are potential ways of improving, or at least not infecting, beer. You can also take it further than your current process in some way or another (autoclave?).

But just because X, Y, and Z are good practices which improve beer quality and/or reduce risk, that does not in itself mean that O2 is needed to be added via tank and stone. There may be proof that this method makes superior beer, but those aren't it.

 

[BassBeer]

I've been hooking a large conical strainer to my primary and dumping the wort through, then moving the strainer to the kettle and dumping the wort back.

I do this a few times and with each pass I collect hops and sediment plus aerate the wort. I then shake my primary before and after pitching to ensure there's plenty of O2.

I've always been at or under my est. FG and the beers taste excellent!

 

[travis123]

If you blow into the wort aren't you producing & introducing C02?